SALVATION

[Clare73]

This is another nonsensical unprofitable rabbit trail, as the question on faith is as well.

Knowledge of true faith and counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23) is very profitable.

"Justice" (dike) in man as righteousness can be confusing, since it is not found in the Greek.

In the Greek, it is "justification" (dikiaosis) that is a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness, as in sanctification/holiness (hagiasmos).

Anyway, they all got from historical usage.

Only the Greek is authoritative.

Any historical usage not in agreement with the Greek is not authoritative.

 

[fhansen]

Only the Greek is authoritative.

And yet you insist on a single and particular English translation of the Greek!! While English words are often unable to perfectly translate it anyway!

 

[fhansen]

Knowledge of true faith and counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23) is very profitable.

You’re insisting that they had faith in Christ and that it produced miracles! As if God’s a dimwit.

 

[Clare73]

If yer truly interested in learning something about the faith

Actually, I'm interested in the NT teaching regarding the Christian faith.

instead of remaining stuck on partial and parochial understanding,

I don't see the Greek of the NT as a partial nor parochial understanding. . .and which is probably our major difference.
I see Scripture as God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) and authoritative to the body of Christ (Lk 10:16).
It is the revelation of Jesus Christ from the apostles who penned it.

then the following should be enlightening:
Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros, in The River of Fire, proposes that the traditional Eastern Christian and
patristic view of justification

I am interested in the apostolic view of justification, which is found in the NT texts.

Whereof, in the Greek of the NT, justification (dikaioais) is a forensic righteousness, a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of right standing with God--sinless (Ro 4:25, 5:18). It is not an actual righteousness of character, which is hagiasmos (sanctification/holiness).

is more compatible with the nature of the Christian God in both the Old and New Testaments.

1) "More compatible" than the NT word of God?
There is nothing "more compatible with the nature of the Christian God in both the Old and New Testaments" than the NT word of that very God himself.

2) Do you not see how the personal opinion of Kalomiros is placed above--to improve upon--the divine teaching of the apostles received from Jesus Christ?!!!
What a low view of the word of God!

He explains:

“The word dikaiosúne, ‘justice,’ is a translation [in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Hebrew Bible, ca. 300 BC] of the Hebraic word tsedaka.

However, dikaiosune is not translated as" justice" in the NT texts, it is translated as "righteousness" (Ro 5:17, 6:14, 16, 28, 19, 20, Eph 6:14, etc.)

The use of "justice" to refer to the Christian's righteousness/sanctification is unfamiliar to the NT.

Your usage for that purpose is confusing in light of the NT usage.

 

[Clare73]

And yet you insist on a single and particular English translation of the Greek!! While English words are often unable to perfectly translate it anyway!

Nope. . .

I insist on the Greek definitions of the Greek words, and demonstrated in their NT usage.

 

[Clare73]

You’re insisting that they had faith in Christ and that it produced miracles! As if God’s a dimwit.

The same "dimwit" who "produced the miracles" of

1) Judas (Lk 9:1-2),
2) Pharaoh's magicians (Ex 7:8-11),
3) false prophets (2 Th 2:9),
4) counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).

Today doesn't seem to like a good day for you (unless this is a different person).

Let's take a break.

 

[fhansen]

Nope. . .

I insist on the Greek definitions of the Greek words, and demonstrated in their NT usage.

I showed NT usage. Latin was the language of scholars for centuries in the west and they certainly knew how to properly translate it from Greek, and into English. “Justice” simply is a correct translation and, just to make sure that the was understood, I often stated it as justice/righteousness. So what is the problem and waste of time here?

 

[Clare73]

I showed NT usage. Latin was the language of scholars for centuries in the west and they certainly knew how to properly translate it from Greek, and into English.

Did they know kione Greek back then?

“Justice” simply is a correct translation and, just to make sure that the was understood, I often stated it as justice/righteousness.

Guess I missed the "justice/righteousness" posts.

So what is the problem and waste of time here?

The problem is the NT does not use "justice" in that manner, not once.

Your usage is confusing.

 

[fhansen]

The same "dimwit" who "produced" the miracles of

1) Judas (Lk 9:1-2),
2) Pharaoh's magicians (Ex 7:8-11),
3) false prophets (2 Th 2:9),
4) counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).

Today doesn't seem to like a good day for you.

Let's take a break.

It’s hard to take a break when the Christian faith is being corrupted. You maintain that Judas produced miracles, which we don't even know, by being sent out with the apostles by Christ to do so and that Pharaoh's magicians produced miracles presumably without faith in God and that false prophets also produced miracles- by faith??- and that in Matt 7 people produced miracles by faith in Jesus which you nonetheless called counterfeit faith. And that all of this is somehow related to what Paul was getting at with the term "faith" in 1 Cor 13 with is nonsense. Paul was, simply, contrasting faith with love. Which is why he didn't say, in 1 Cor 13:13,

"And now these three remain: counterfeit faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Neither Jesus or Paul expressed any sentiments regarding a “counterfeit faith” moving mountains. Jesus said that faith can move mountains, and Paul, knowing Jesus better than any of us, knew that even that wasn't enough to truly make us children of God.

 

[Clare73]

It’s hard to take a break when the Christian faith is being corrupted.

So it is as I thought. . .

I'll call you #1, and the other will be #2.

You maintain that Judas produced miracles, which we don't even know,

Where does the NT exempt Judas from statements regarding the apostles' works?

 

[fhansen]

Where does the NT exempt Judas from statements regarding the apostles' works?

It doesn't make much difference. If Judas was part of the fold at one time he certainly left it later. Either way there's no recording of his working a miracle.

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't make much difference. If Judas was part of the fold at one time he certainly left it later. Either way there's no recording of his working a miracle.

Following that method, nor is there any denial.

 

[fhansen]

The problem is the NT does not use "justice" in that manner, not once.

Sure it does-I gave examples.

Your usage is confusing.

Fair enough, which is why I've tried to explain it. The usage is historic, and an accurate usage. For your sake I'll use the word "righteousness" from now on exclusively, so we won't get needlessly side-tracked.

 

[Clare73]

Sure it does-I gave examples.

Help me out here. . .give the Scriptural text locations.

 

[fhansen]

Help me out here. . .give the Scriptural text locations.

I quoted all of romans chapter 3 where the word was used in that way.

 

[Clare73]

I quoted all of romans chapter 3 where the word with used in that way.

The NT text is "righteousness" (dikaiosune), not justice (dike).

Your use of "justice "is confusing.

 

[fhansen]

The NT text is "righteousness" (dikaiosune), not justice (dike).

Your use of "justice "is confusing.

Only to the uninitiated. As the article I referenced explains, justice is also an accurate translation of dikaiosune. If you wish to look into that further on your own, that’s fine, but otherwise you shouldn’t need more information here.

 

[Clare73]

Only to the uninitiated. As the article I referenced explains, justice is also an accurate translation of dikaiosune. If you wish to look into that further on your own, that’s fine, but otherwise you shouldn’t need more information here.

See post #304.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, I'm interested in the NT teaching regarding the Christian faith.

Which the article accurately reflects.

I don't see the Greek of the NT as a partial nor parochial understanding. . .and which is probably our major difference.
I see Scripture as God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) and authoritative to the body of Christ (Lk 10:16).
It is the revelation of Jesus Christ from the apostles who penned it.

No it’s your understanding of scripture and the faith which is rather partial and parochial. You’re attached to a relatively novel and modern private interpretation of Scripture, with blinders on that don’t allow you to look outside of what you think is the gospel truth. More diligence in study is necessary.

I am interested in the apostolic view of justification, which is found in the NT texts.

Whereof, in the Greek of the NT, justification (dikaioais) is a forensic righteousness, a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of right standing with God--sinless (Ro 4:25, 5:18). It is not an actual righteousness of character, which is hagiasmos (sanctification/holiness).

Been down that road. Scripture, logic, reason, history notwithstanding.

1) "More compatible" than the NT word of God?
There is nothing "more compatible with the nature of the Christian God in both the Old and New Testaments" than the NT word of that very God himself.

That quote was from the author of the article, not myself. But the article nonetheless reflects understanding that is compatible with the nature of the Christian God as it is is compatible with Scripture, His word.

2) Do you not see how the personal opinion of Kalomiros is placed above--to improve upon--the divine teaching of the apostles received from Jesus Christ?!!!
What a low view of the word of God!

It's no different from your personal opinion in that sense. His just happens to be more accurate. Either way he understands and explained the various definitions and usages of justice, which you still fail to accept for some reason.

However, dikaiosune is not translated as" justice" in the NT texts, it is translated as "righteousness" (Ro 5:17, 6:14, 16, 28, 19, 20, Eph 6:14, etc.)

Yes it is-and it's been presented.

 

[fhansen]

Following that method, nor is there any denial.

Yep, good reason for leaving that one out as it proves nothing, along with the others.