SALVATION

[fhansen]

Did they know kione Greek back then?

It's dependent on the meaning of the word justice, And "righteousness" is one of those meanings even if not so common in current usage today. Sheez

 

[AbbaLove]

Example of the Reformation use of "justice" to mean righteousness.

Although you previously said that you considered Paul's order (golden chain) to be wrong ... yet we should rather believe Paul in that we believe his order is inspired by the Holy Spirit and not his own opinion, and why it has been referred to as the Golden Chain ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.​

Also you should know that being "called" is "sanctification" (not justification). The reason you don't believe this is because your [denomintional] order is out of sync with Paul's order.

Therefore, God calls every Christian to live a sanctified life – a life in which we no longer practice sin but live wholly devoted to God. ... “Like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'You shall be holy for I am Holy (1 Peter 1:15-16).

1 Corinthians 6:11​

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

You'd have to admit that the vast majority of so-called Christians don't have a clue about living a sanctified life. So you and others change the order to appeal to the seeker-sensitive (nominal) lukewarm Christain that they are justified before they are sanctified. It's rather perplexing that you can't see your error or don't want to see your error.

 

[setst777]

Although you previously said that you considered Paul's order (golden chain) to be wrong ... yet we should rather believe Paul in that we believe his order is inspired by the Holy Spirit and not his own opinion, and why it has been referred to as the Golden Chain ...

Romans 8:30​

And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.​

Also you should know that being "called" is "sanctification" (not justification). The reason you don't believe this is because your [denomintional] order is out of sync with Paul's order.

Therefore, God calls every Christian to live a sanctified life – a life in which we no longer practice sin but live wholly devoted to God. ... “Like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'You shall be holy for I am Holy (1 Peter 1:15-16).

1 Corinthians 6:11​

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

You'd have to admit that the vast majority of so-called Christians don't have a clue about living a sanctified life. So you and others change the order to appeal to the seeker-sensitive (nominal) lukewarm Christain that they are justified before they are sanctified. It's rather perplexing that you can't see your error or don't want to see your error.

Many people do not believe Paul's words were inspired by the Holy Spirit when referring to what you call the "Golden Chain." They don't believe whom Paul declared as the recipients of that "Golden Chain" - "those who love God." These are the ones whom God foreknew and made special promises to.

Romans 8:28 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.

All God's saving promises are guaranteed only to those who believe (continuous believing), which is to love God.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (WEB) But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” [Isaiah 64:4]

James 1:12-16 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

In fact, the Spirit will only indwell to give life to those who love God evidenced by keeping His commandments.

John 14:15-16 (ESV) 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth

John 14:23-24 (ESV) If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) Peter stated: 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Many refuse to believe in what Lord Jesus, Peter, James, spoke and wrote as the inspired words of God.

Romans 8:30, are all the promises and activities of God on those who love God.

Romans 8:30
And those He predestined (to be conformed to the image of His Son),
He also called (by the Gospel); and
those He called, He also justified (we are justified by a Gospel Faith in him: Romans 5:1-2);
and those He justified, He also glorified (we are seated with Christ in heavenly places by faith in him).

These are all one-time past events (aorist verbs) by God upon those who are loving God. Those who love God are the ones God:

"foreknew"... God foreknew the ones who love God.
"predestined" ... God already planned in the past to conform to His Son those who love God.
"called" ... God calls all people by the Gospel, but one's who are the called are those who love God.
"justified" .... All those who love God have been justified by faith.
"glorified" ... All those who love God have been seated in heavenly places, transferred from darkness to light.

These are all one-time past events for each person who loves God. The promises are only for those who love God, and continue to love God manifested by following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love, which is what Baptism represents.

"Glorified," within the context, means that, those "loving God," (Romans 8:28) were made citizens of heaven, seated in heavenly places, from darkness to light, although presently living in corrupted flesh.

Ephesians 2:6 [We were] raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, Christ Jesus the Lord.

 

[setst777]

Agreed. . .because if his faith does not lead to repentance, it is not saving faith.

However, it is not the necessary good work of repentance which saves, it is only the faith of that necessary good work of repentance which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

How can repentance be a work, when it is a change of mind and heart before one work is ever done?

Also, you cannot be saved unless your faith is manifested in repentance to God - that is the faith God accepts.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret.

Faith and repentance are frequently used interchangeably to refer to the same thing - that is the Gospel we are commanded to preach to every nation.

Luke 24:46-47 (WEB) 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission [forgiveness] of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Matthew 28:19-20 Go and make disciples [followers] of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to obey all things that I commanded you.

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked. But now He commands that all people everywhere should repent,

 

[AbbaLove]

Many people do not believe Paul's words were inspired by the Holy Spirit when referring to what you call the "Golden Chain." They don't believe whom Paul declared as the recipients of that "Golden Chain" - "those who love God." These are the ones whom God foreknew and made special promises to.

Many people aren't Christians. Many people that call themselves Christians are led as much by their own understanding than that of the Holy Spirit. So it's not surprising that many pick and choose what to believe about Paul's writings as if his epistles are Paul's own commentary and not inspired by the Holy Spirit. When one starts down that path they can get lost.

Just to let you know i'm not among the many people who cherry pick being opposed to Paul's order of Salvation (Romans 8:30, 1 Corinthians 6"11) to satisfy a denominational theology via misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

 

[AbbaLove]

Many people do not believe Paul's words were inspired by the Holy Spirit when referring to what you call the "Golden Chain." They don't believe whom Paul declared as the recipients of that "Golden Chain" - "those who love God." These are the ones whom God foreknew and made special promises to.

Romans 8:28 (WEB) 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.

All God's saving promises are guaranteed only to those who believe (continuous believing), which is to love God.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (WEB) But as it is written, “Things which an eye didn’t see, and an ear didn’t hear, which didn’t enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.” [Isaiah 64:4]

James 1:12-16 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

In fact, the Spirit will only indwell to give life to those who love God evidenced by keeping His commandments.

John 14:15-16 (ESV) 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth

John 14:23-24 (ESV) If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) Peter stated: 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Many refuse to believe in what Lord Jesus, Peter, James, spoke and wrote as the inspired words of God.

Romans 8:30, are all the promises and activities of God on those who love God.

Romans 8:30
And those He predestined (to be conformed to the image of His Son),
He also called (by the Gospel); and
those He called, He also justified (we are justified by a Gospel Faith in him: Romans 5:1-2);
and those He justified, He also glorified (we are seated with Christ in heavenly places by faith in him).

These are all one-time past events (aorist verbs) by God upon those who are loving God. Those who love God are the ones God:

"foreknew"... God foreknew the ones who love God.
"predestined" ... God already planned in the past to conform to His Son those who love God.
"called" ... God calls all people by the Gospel, but one's who are the called are those who love God.
"justified" .... All those who love God have been justified by faith.
"glorified" ... All those who love God have been seated in heavenly places, transferred from darkness to light.

These are all one-time past events for each person who loves God. The promises are only for those who love God, and continue to love God manifested by following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love, which is what Baptism represents.

"Glorified," within the context, means that, those "loving God," (Romans 8:28) were made citizens of heaven, seated in heavenly places, from darkness to light, although presently living in corrupted flesh.

Ephesians 2:6 [We were] raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, Christ Jesus the Lord.

Many people do not believe Paul's words were inspired by the Holy Spirit when referring to what you call the "Golden Chain." They don't believe whom Paul declared as the recipients of that "Golden Chain" - "those who love God." These are the ones whom God foreknew and made special promises to.

Many people are not Christians. Many so-called Christians are led more by their own denominational understanding (nominal) than led by the Holy Spirit. Many Christians don't have a clue when it comes to living a snactified life.

Those "many" are the ones that will misinterpret and misrepresent Romans 8:30 and 1 Corinthians 6:11 in order to satisfy their own understanding to justify a seeker-sensitive theology. One reason why today's American church is compared to the Laodicean church.

 

[Clare73]

It's dependent on the meaning of the word justice, And "righteousness" is one of those meanings even if not so common in current usage today. Sheez

Agreed. . .and my point precisely. . .which makes it confusing, where the use of "righteousness" would not be confusing.

 

[Clare73]

Although you previously said that you considered Paul's order (golden chain) to be wrong ...

Read it again. . .I don't consider Paul to be presenting a sequential order, but just simply stating them, as was thoroughly explained.

 

[Clare73]

How can repentance be a work, when it is a change of mind and heart before one work is ever done?

Anything done apart from the Holy Spirit is a human "work."
A change of mind not enabled by the Holy Spirit is a human "work," which works do not, and cannot, save (Eph 2:8-9).

Also, you cannot be saved unless your faith is manifested in repentance to God - that is the faith God accepts.

If one's "faith" does not obey, then it is not saving faith, it is counterfeit faith, which does not save.

However. . .it is not the works of true faith which saves, it is the faith only, apart from the works, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[AbbaLove]

Read it again. . .I don't consider Paul to be presenting a sequential order, but just simply stating them, as was thoroughly explained.

That's due to your own misunderstanding due to theological [denominational] misinterpretation. So back to you ... meditate on it again and again until you get the correct order between sanctification first followed by justification.

 

[Clare73]

That's due to your own misunderstanding due to theological [denominational] misinterpretation.

From which you are exempt?

So back to you ... meditate on it again and again until you get the correct order between sanctification first followed by justification.

Do you follow your own advice?

 

[AbbaLove]

Do you follow your own advice?

Is that why you think Paul is wrong because he couldn't follow his own advice (order) with washing, calling and living a sanctified lifestyle preceding justification? Or are you saying you don't believe it's possible for the majority of today's Christians to live out a sanctified (holy) lifestyle?

If today's American church is by and large a "laodicean church" could explain why living a sanctified life before justification is not possible for a nominal lukewarm Christian.

Romans 8:30
And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself).

1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

When you said Paul is "wrong" it just could be that your order is wrong being contrary to Paul's Golden Chain order with justification following sanctification.

 

[setst777]

Anything done apart from the Holy Spirit is a human "work."

All true Christians believe that.

A change of mind not enabled by the Holy Spirit is a human "work," which works do not, and cannot, save (Eph 2:8-9).

Can you show me that a "change of mind" is efficaciously enabled by the Holy Spirit?

A change of mind is encouraged by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God on the spirit, mind and conscience sinners indiscriminately.

However, many can and do resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51) or refuse the grace offered to them through the Gospel (Matthew 22:3; Romans 10:21-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Acts 7:51 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

Romans 10:20-21 (WEB) 20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

Matthew 22:3 (NIV) He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NIV) They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

God graciously calls all people without favoritism or discrimination to repent and believe to be saved, even though many refuse.

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) Or do you take for granted the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Therefore; God's Word and Spirit are not efficacious in how they work to convict and call people to repent and believe; in that, many people to refuse the Gospel invitation, and they do resist the Spirit.

The sinner is made alive (born again) by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10) and the Gospel Word (Romans 10:17; Ephesians 5:25-26; 1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18) through our faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:1-18; John 7:37-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5; Galatians 3:14; Acts 2:38).

We pass out of spirit death onto spiritual life by believing, not so we can believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears (present and continuous hearing) my word and believes (present and continuous believing) him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

God, by his Word and Spirit, convicts the hearts of all people to repent and believe, and the sinner can either repent and believe or refuse the conviction and the grace offered to him through the Gospel. The humble and crushed are the sinners who are clearly receptive to the Gospel invitation by the Word and Spirit, while the proud and arrogant will resist.

If one's "faith" does not obey, then it is not saving faith, it is counterfeit faith, which does not save.

However. . .it is not the works of true faith which saves, it is the faith only, apart from the works, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

There are different interpretations of "Ephesians 2:8-9." But you agree that faith is not a work. Repentance is innate within a true Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus by which God elects to save us.

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB) 20 I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

Luke 24:46-47 (EWEB) 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission [forgiveness] of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

However. . .it is not the works of true faith which saves, it is the faith only, apart from the works, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

The evidence of one's faith is a sanctified life of righteousness and love, of which Baptism represents (Matthew 28:19-20; Romans 6:1-8; Colossians 3:1-17). These are the only ones God sanctifies to himself.

God surely does judge the genuineness of our faith by our works - whether we listened to and followed Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

John 10:27-28 (EWEB) 27 My sheep hear [listen] my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The “them” and “they” who are granted eternal life are the ones who listen to and follow Lord Jesus, confessing him as their Lord. These are the ones Lord Jesus identifies as his sheep.

The "sheep" whom Lord Jesus saves are those who evidence their faith by a life of good works (Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:31-46 - King James Version).

Matthew 25:46-47 (KJV)
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 John 3:7 Children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:10 (WEB) In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.

1 John 1:7 (WEB) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:6 (WEB) 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

 

[fhansen]

Well, I appreciate the fact that that most of the conversations have stayed on topic.

Here's a related thought, stemming from some writings that I posted or referred to earlier in this thread. When Luther had his "tower experience" while agonizing over his inability to overcome his sins, his epiphany involved coming to believe that the righteousness of God was a gift of grace which He clothes us in by imputation as we turn to Him in faith. This is how we're justified. Augustine, OTOH, whose words in "On the Spirit and the Letter" Luther had been contemplating, also believed that God clothes us in His righteousness as we turn to Him in faith but that this gift of grace was real righteousness given, not solely imputed. Both of them saw righteousness as a free gift of grace to believers either way.

Luther determined that Augustine didn't quite understand or in any case failed to state the truth correctly but IMO "On the Letter and the Spirit" is quite clear, and aligns perfectly with Paul's teachings, that righteousness is given, and that we're now expected to cooperate with that grace, that life and work of God's in us as we continue to walk and grow in that righteousness as we remain in Him.

 

[setst777]

Well, I appreciate the fact that that most of the conversations have stayed on topic.

Here's a related thought, stemming from some writings that I posted earlier in this thread. When Luther had his "tower experience" while agonizing over his inability to overcome his sins, his epiphany involved coming to believe that the righteousness of God was a gift of grace which He clothes us in by imputation as we turn to Him in faith. This is how we're justified. Augustine, OTOH, whose words in "On the Spirit and the Letter" Luther had been contemplating, also believed that God clothes us in His righteousness as we turn to Him in faith but that this gift of grace was real righteousness given, not solely imputed. Both of them saw righteousness as a free gift of grace to believers either way.

Luther determined that Augustine didn't quite understand or in any case failed to state the truth correctly but IMO "On the Letter and the Sprit" is quite clear, and aligns perfectly with Paul's teachings, that righteousness is given, and that we're now expected to cooperate with that grace, that life and work of God's in us as we continue to walk and grow in that righteousness as we remain in Him.

Scripturally, that would be correct; for only as the Christian walks in the light is he cleansed from all sins - thus remaining perfectly holy before God.

1 John 1:5-7 (EWEB) 5 … God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

 

[setst777]

Many people aren't Christians. Many people that call themselves Christians are led as much by their own understanding than that of the Holy Spirit. So it's not surprising that many pick and choose what to believe about Paul's writings as if his epistles are Paul's own commentary and not inspired by the Holy Spirit. When one starts down that path they can get lost.

Just to let you know i'm not among the many people who cherry pick being opposed to Paul's order of Salvation (Romans 8:30, 1 Corinthians 6"11) to satisfy a denominational theology via misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

Greetings AbbaLove.

I know you are not among the many people who will cherry pick verses of Scripture outside of their context and supply their own meanings to those verses so it agrees with human philosophies and doctrines.

And so, regarding "Romans 8:30," as we read that verse, we (those who truly believe) understand that Paul definitely gives an order of events for salvation that is specifically only for "those who love God."

Regarding "1 Corinthians 6:11," I agree that Reformists and Calvinists force a meaning into the text that does not contextually follow.

Let us review that Passage for the sake of the Reformists and Calvinists who read these messages:

1 Corinthians 6:11 (WEB) 11 Some of you were such, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

The pronoun "you" refers back to those who are now believers, not unbelievers, in Lord Jesus, and of whom Paul is writing to.

Question: When were sinners washed, sanctified, and justified from all their sins?
Answer: When the sinners repented and believed they were then washed and justified of all their sins, and were sanctified by God to himself.

1 John 1:9 (WEB) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 5:1-2 (EWEB) Being therefore justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

I well know that you understand that "The Faith" that God accepts to receive the salvation, which Lord Jesus paid for on the cross, is a faith manifested in repentance toward God and faith in Lord Jesus; and, that this "faith" that God accepts is evidenced by turning from sin, and a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified (separated ) life onto righteousness and love - for that is what Baptism represents.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [disciples] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to observe all things that I commanded you.

Romans 6:1-8 (EWEB) What shall we [believers] say, then? Shall we [believers] go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We [believers] are those who have died to sin; how can we [believers] live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us [believers] who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We [believers] were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we [believers] have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also {{{be part of his resurrection}}}. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also {{{live with him}}}

As we see, believers in Christ are necessarily disciples of Lord Jesus, following him. Anyone who says they believe in Jesus, but doesn't confess Jesus as their only Lord whom they follow, his faith is dead.

Anyone who has a Gospel Faith that God accepts to be saved, is a faith by which the sinner dies to (renounces) his old master of sin, and has risen with Christ to a New Life of following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love. This is the only faith by which "we will also be part of his resurrection," [vs. 5] and by which we will "live with him." [vs. 8]

I know you agree with all this, for this is God's Word that I quoted, and the context is clear to any objective mind.

Blessings

 

[Clare73]

Is that why you think

I think precisely what I stated. . .

 

[Clare73]

All true Christians believe that.

Can you show me that a "change of mind" is efficaciously enabled by the Holy Spirit?

I can show you that the unregenerate man can do nothing that pleases God, that he is hostile to God (Ro 8:7-8), and that includes a change of mind toward God.

A change of mind is encouraged by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God on the spirit, mind and conscience sinners indiscriminately.

Precisley. . .and only the born again can do that. . .Jesus said that only those whom the Father has enabled (through the new birth) can come to him (Jn 6:65).

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I think precisely what I stated. . .

The patience you have with some individuals here @ CF is worthy of comment. When I read some of your dialogues with others, I think to myself....I couldn't do this....and yet you can. May Jesus continue to grant you guidance in conversing with others. And keep on commenting.

 

[setst777]

I can show you that the unregenerate man can do nothing that pleases God, that he is hostile to God (Ro 8:7-8), and that includes a change of mind toward God.

How is the sinner regenerated from spiritual death to spiritual life, according to the Scriptures?

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

However, regarding "Romans 8," the context is essential to understand what Paul is teaching.

In context, Paul is writing to Christians, instructing them; in that, if they walk in the Spirit, then they are not carnally minded, but if they walk according to their lusts, then they are carnally minded. Can Christians become carnally minded? Yes they can:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Christians who do not walk in the Spirit by faith are carnally minded:

Galatians 5:14-15
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [Leviticus 19:18] 15 But if you [Christians] bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you [Christians] will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Now, let us see who "Romans 8" is written to, and what Paul is teaching the Christian Church in Rome.

Romans 8:1-14
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. [We are in Christ Jesus by faith: Galatians 3:26].

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us [Christians], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For [Gk: Gar, a preposition showing a continuation of the previous thought expressed in verses 3 and 4] those [Christians: see vs. 4] who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
[This is the same thought expressed in "Galatians 5:14-15," quoted earlier.

6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.

8 Those [Christians: see vs. 4] who are in the flesh can’t please God.

9 But you [Christians: see vs. 4] are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you
[The Spirit dwells in those who are believing (continuous): John 7:37-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5; Galatians 3:14; Acts 2:38, for the promise of the Spirit is only for those who are believing: Acts 2:38]

But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness
[The Spirit of Christ dwells in us by believing: John 7:37-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5; Galatians 3:14; Acts 2:38].

11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
[The Spirit of Christ dwells in us by believing: John 7:37-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5; Galatians 3:14; Acts 2:38].

12 So then [a summary of what was just previously written], brothers [Christians: see vs. 4] we [Christians: see vs. 4] have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you [Christians: see vs. 4 and 12] live after the flesh, you [Christians: see vs. 4 and 12] must die; but if by the Spirit you [Christians: see vs. 4 and 12] put to death the deeds of the body, you [Christians: see vs. 4 and 12] will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

We are children of God by faith:

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And because we are children of God, which is by faith, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

setst777 said:
A change of mind is encouraged by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God on the spirit, mind and conscience sinners indiscriminately.

Precisley. . .and only the born again can do that. . .Jesus said that only those whom the Father has enabled (through the new birth) can come to him (Jn 6:65).

I agree, a sinner is born again by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:10-11).

Question:
How do sinners receive the Holy Spirit to give them new birth, according to the Scriptures?

Regarding John 6:65,

Let us look at the context, and pay close attention to the words: “For this cause” in verse 64.

John 6:64 But there are some of you who don’t believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn’t believe, and who it was who would betray him. 65 He said, {{For this cause}} [the reason just given in verse 64 - cause and effect] I have said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.”

In verse 64, Lord Jesus does not say Lord Jesus knew those whom the Father didn’t give faith to, or that he knew the one whom the Father formed to betray him; rather, Lord Jesus’ “foreknowledge” is that he “knew” from the beginning who they were. God places the responsibility to believe or refusing to believe on each individual, although God foreknew who they were, and God can use even sinners to bring about his plans.

Then, in verse 65, Lord Jesus says that “For this cause” (stated in verse 64). What did Lord Jesus describe in "verse 64" that was the cause of God's action of "giving" or “not giving” to Lord Jesus?

The answer is:

John 6:64 But there are some of you who don’t believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn’t believe, and who it was who would betray him.

The Father will only give to the Son those who believe in the Son.
The Father will only give the right to come to the Son, to be saved, those who believe in the Son.
The Father will not give the right to come to the Son, to be saved, those who do not believe in the Son.

John 3:18 (WEB)
He who believes in him is not judged.
He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.