SALVATION

[fhansen]

Jesus got it wrong in Mt 7:22-23.

No, you got Jesus wrong in Matt 7:22-23. You made it fit your theology, not His.

 

[Clare73]

As I said, it means more than that, not less than that as if forgiveness is excluded. When a person is justified, they are forgiven,, washed, cleansed, made new creations with new hearts and spirits, now children of God enabled by His grace to live as children of God should.

And justice is an appropriate translation there. Either way its all translation and interpretation unless we have the original manuscript and can speak the original language and can know the original author's intention.

The terms are just part of classical western scholarship where the Latin language and usage prevailed.

And that is the problem. . .

The text is in Greek. . .and that is not its meaning in the Greek.

Seems "something was last in the translation."

 

[fhansen]

And that is the problem. . .

The text is in Greek. . .and that is not its meaning in the Greek.

Seems "something was last in the translation."

Yes, the text is in Greek. The word "righteousness" is not in the text either!!! It's an English word. And why do you use the term "justification"? It means to be made just, translating the Greek, based on the same Latin word justificare. It's a matter of usage and "justice" is a valid translation. But why waste time on such a non-issue anyway?

 

[fhansen]

Example of the Reformation use of "justice" to mean righteousness.

That's how it's used in the example given. What does God clothe us with? What do you say He imputes to us?

 

[fhansen]

The Greek dikaiosis (justification) is a declaration, a sentence, a pronouncement of "not guilty," a right standing with God, as the result of that same faith (Ro 3:28) which saved them (Eph 2:8-9).

It is a forensic righteousness only, not an actual righteousness of character, which actual righteousness is sanctification/holiness (hagiasmos).

Dikaiosis can mean acquittal, or pronouncement/declaration of righteousness, or simply justification which can mean different things. It's all based on the root "dikaios" which simply means righteous or just. While "dikaiosis" is used twice in the NT, other derivatives of "dikaios" are used in the new testament to speak of righteousness or justification in one way or another. But Rom 5:18 perhaps clarifies the concept of justification best with the use of two words instead of one, "dikaioi katastathēsontai": "made righteous", contrasting this with "hamartōloi katestathēsan": "made sinners" (made unrighteous).

In any case, there's no doubt that we're acquitted, forgiven, at justification. The question is in whether or not we're actually given righteousness (made righteous/just) at the same time with this righteousness included in our being new creations in Christ. And the church has always held that it is included. And the letter to the Romans (along with other writings) maintains that righteousness is a gift, and one that we must walk in (and you apparently agree, at least, that we must walk in righteousness in order to inherit eternal life, whether that is made possible via justification or sanctification, the two of which the church, for its part, historically held as being inseparable, part and parcel of the same thing). Either way, Augustine agrees that righteousness is given at justification in his treatise, "On the Spirit and the Letter", which Luther referred to in my quote of his above. "On the Spirit and the Letter" is a worthwhile read BTW:

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Spirit and the Letter (St. Augustine)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

​

 

[Clare73]

Yes, the text is in Greek. The word "righteousness" is not in the text either!!!

Words have definitions.

See dikaiosune (righteousness), Ro 3:5, 25, 26, Mt 5:6, 1 20, Jn 16:8, 10, etc. . .

 

[Clare73]

No, you got Jesus wrong in Matt 7:22-23. You made it fit your theology, not His.

Please present the text and show my error (that miracle-working faith is not saving faith).

 

[fhansen]

Please present the text and show my error (that miracle-working faith is not saving faith).

I don't have to. God is the author of true faith. If a person works a miracle by that faith, then He certainly knows them. If He doesn't know them than it can't be true faith or any kind of faith that came from Him in other words. You related those miracles to true faith, not me.

 

[fhansen]

Words have definitions.

See dikaiosune (righteousness), Ro 3:5, 25, 26, Mt 5:6, 1 20, Jn 16:8, 10, etc. . .

Yes, and the word justice also fits the definition, as the Reformer Luther understood.

 

[setst777]

Faith is belief and trust in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin and right standing with God's justice (sinless = justified, a forensic righteousness).

The OT sacrifices give us the meaning of Jesus's sacrifice; i.e. they covered the sin of God's people (Ro 4:7).
Our NT sacrifice forgives the sin of God's people (those who believe in Jesus Christ), saving them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on their sin at the Judgment.

What you described is the Gospel that a sinner may choose to believe in or refuse when he hears the Gospel (Romans 10:17-18) and is convicted by the Spirit (Acts 7:51-54); however, if believing in the Gospel does not lead to repentance toward God (2 Corinthians 7:10) and faith in Lord Jesus manifested by following him, his faith in the Gospel will not save him.

Faith must include repentance to be saved by God.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, which brings no regret.

A Believer is called a Christian. A Christian (Believer) is a Disciple (Follower) of Lord Jesus (Acts 11:26), which is what Baptism represents.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) 26 When he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they were gathered together with the assembly, and taught many people. The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [“disciples”] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Therefore, the only faith by which God elects to save anyone is defined by the NT as a faith manifested in renouncing sin, and then following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the {{light of life}}.”

"The light of life" is regeneration and is God’s Work in those who believe in Jesus as their Lord whom they now follow.

Anyone who says he/she believes in Lord Jesus to be saved but does not repent, committing to follow Him and His commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in him/her.

1 John 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

 

[Clare73]

I don't have to. God is the author of true faith. If a person works a miracle by that faith, then He certainly knows them. If He doesn't know them than it can't be true faith or any kind of faith that came from Him in other words. You related those miracles to true faith, not me.

And I denied the faith of those miraculous works was true faith, asserting the faith of those miracles was counterfeit.

MIracle-working faith is not necessarily true faith.

 

[fhansen]

MIracle-working faith is not necessarily true faith.

Right..."Miracle-working faith"-haven't seen that one in the bible for some reason. In truth, Matt 7:22-23 shouldn't even be on the table! It has nothing to do with faith, a gift of God that can work miracles.
"He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Matt 17:20-21

Speaking in the tongue of angels, having the gift of prophecy and being able to fathom all mysteries and knowledge, having faith that can move mountains: these are all gifts of God and yet Paul is contrasting faith with love, emphasizing what the church has known from the beginning-and has grown in greater awareness of-that love trumps all, love is the purpose, love is the heart and soul of the Christian faith and the reason Jesus came and did all that He did and love is the nature of God that we're to be transformed into. Love is our righteousness, that which fulfills the law without regard to the law-the righteousness that the law and the prophets can only testify to. Love is our salvation-apart from it there is none. Faith is the doorway to it, and so "faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification" as it's been taught.

 

[Clare73]

Right..."Miracle-working faith"-haven't seen that one in the bible for some reason. In truth, Matt 7:22-23 shouldn't even be on the table!
It has nothing to do with faith, a gift of God that can work miracles.

Contraire. . ."Lord, Lord" (Mt 7:22) has everything to do with faith.

So. . .the faith they had in Jesus ("Lord, Lord"), even though they were able to work miracles, was not saving faith, for Jesus did not "know" (ginosko--had never been in approving connection with) them (Mt 7:23), even though they say to him "Lord, Lord."

 

[Clare73]

Yes, and the word justice also fits the definition, as the Reformer Luther understood.

Actually, Luther got that from Augustine, neither of whom got it out from the Greek, because it is not there.

Please present the NT Scripture where justice (dike) is used of righteousness in the believer.

 

[fhansen]

Contraire. . ."Lord, Lord" (Mt 7:22) has everything to do with faith.

Faith in who, what? Anyone can say. "Lord, Lord". Are you now saying that their faith was true after all? Miracles are supernatural by definition, Clare. So if God responds to their faith by working a miracle, then they're certainly one of His-He's not some kind of robot who has to respond to everyone's desires, just as He wouldn't grant Simon the Sorcerer's request for power. "Lord, Lord" means nothing in itself, certainly not faith in Him. So give it up; Paul's treatment of faith is obviously referencing Matt 17:20-21 and has exactly nothing to do with Matt 7:22-23.

 

[Clare73]

What you described is the Gospel that a sinner may choose to believe in or refuse when he hears the Gospel (Romans 10:17-18) and is convicted by the Spirit (Acts 7:51-54); however, if believing in the Gospel does not lead to repentance toward God (2 Corinthians 7:10) and faith in Lord Jesus manifested by following him, his faith in the Gospel will not save him.

Agreed. . .because if his faith does not lead to repentance, it is not saving faith.

However, it is not the necessary good work of repentance which saves, it is only the faith of that necessary good work of repentance which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[fhansen]

Actually, Luther got that from Augustine, neither of whom got it out from the Greek, because it is not there.

Please present the NT Scripture where justice (dike) is used of righteousness in the believer.

This is another nonsensical unprofitable rabbit trail, as the question on faith is as well. Anyway, they all got from historical usage. So for your edification, Rom 3 of the bible, the Douay Rheims, based on the Vulgate:

1 What advantage then hath the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?

2 Much every way. First indeed, because the words of God were committed to them.

3 For what if some of them have not believed? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid.

4 But God is true; and every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our injustice commend the justice of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust, who executeth wrath?

6 (I speak according to man.) God forbid: otherwise how shall God judge this world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie, unto his glory, why am I also yet judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? Do we excel them? No, not so. For we have charged both Jews, and Greeks, that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written: There is not any man just.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have dealt deceitfully. The venom of asps is under their lips.

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery in their ways:

17 And the way of peace they have not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know, that what things soever the law speaketh, it speaketh to them that are in the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be made subject to God.

20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now without the law the justice of God is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.

22 Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction:

23 For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

24 Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus,

25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins,

26 Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ.

27 Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.

30 For it is one God, that justifieth circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.

 

[Clare73]

Faith in who, what? Anyone can say. "Lord, Lord".

Have you read Mt 7:22-23?

The question is answered there (hint: it is said to Jesus)

Are you now saying that their faith was true after all? Miracles are supernatural by definition, Clare. So
if God responds to their faith by working a miracle, then they're certainly one of His

Contraire. . .

1) Judas worked miracles (Lk 9:1-2),
2) Pharaoh's magicians worked miracles (Ex 7:8-11),
3) false prophets work miracles (2 Th 2:9),
4) counterfeit faith works miracles (Mt 7:22-23).

Miracle-working faith is not necessarily saving faith.

 

[fhansen]

Have you read Mt 7:22-23?

The question is answered there (hint: it is said to Jesus)

4) counterfeit faith works miracles (Mt 7:22-23).

And yet you maintain that Lord, Lord means faith in Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, Luther got that from Augustine, neither of whom got it out from the Greek, because it is not there.

Please present the NT Scripture where justice (dike) is used of righteousness in the believer.

If yer truly interested in learning something about the faith instead of remaining stuck on partial and parochial understanding, then the following should be enlightening:

Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros, in The River of Fire, proposes that the traditional Eastern Christian and patristic view of justification is more compatible with the nature of the Christian God in both the Old and New Testaments. He explains:

“The word dikaiosúne, ‘justice,’ is a translation [in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Hebrew Bible, ca. 300 BC] of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This Hebrew word means ‘the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation.’ It is often translated as ‘charity’. It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed, which means ‘mercy,’ ‘compassion,’ ‘love,’ and to the word emeth which means ‘fidelity,’ ‘truth.’ This gives a completely different dimension to what we usually conceive as justice. This is how the [early] Church understood God’s justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it – God is not just, with the human meaning of this word, but we see that His justice means His goodness and love, which are given in an unjust manner, that is, God always gives without taking anything in return, and He gives to persons like us who are not worthy of receiving. “How can you call God just”, writes Saint Isaac the Syrian [7th century Bishop and Theologian], “when you read the passage on the wage given to the workers? ‘Friend, I do thee no wrong; I will give unto this last even as unto thee who worked for me from the first hour. Is thine eye evil, because I am good?'” “How can a man call God just”, continues Saint Isaac, “when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son, who wasted his wealth in riotous living, and yet only for the contrition which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck, and gave him authority over all his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him lest we doubt it, and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice, for “whilst we were sinners, Christ died for us!”