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The Way that God is Giving Us His Gift of Salvation

d taylor

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Sorry, but what do you mean when you say that we are saved from the consequences of unforgiven sins? If God does not forgive our sins, then we are not saved from them or their consequences. Praise God, the bible tells Christians:

“In Him (Christ) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:7 NKJV)

If we had just one sin that was not forgiven, how could we go to heaven?
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Well for so many, when this is so plainly stated in The Bible, Jesus took away the sin of the world. So no sin not one single sin, is a factor in keeping people from Eternal Life salvation (or as many say going to heaven).
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Sorry, but what do you mean when you say that we are saved from the consequences of unforgiven sins? If God does not forgive our sins, then we are not saved from them or their consequences. Praise God, the bible tells Christians:

“In Him (Christ) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:7 NKJV)

If we had just one sin that was not forgiven, how could we go to heaven?
When we receive the gift of Christ as Saviour, we also receive the righteousness of Christ which means that all sin, past, present, and future is forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ shed on the Cross.
 
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Soyeong

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I don't try to live as Christ lived, because that would be self-righteousness on my part. I just allow myself to be led of the Spirit day by day. There is nothing I can do of myself to contribute to Jesus' workmanship in me. He does it, and I just go with the flow of the Spirit.

I think you have more to learn about God's grace and what it is to walk in the Spirit.
The point of Christianity is to be like Christ by living the way that he lived, which is why we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). The goal of obeying God's law has nothing to do with becoming self-righteous. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so you are contradicting yourself. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law, and in Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. There are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey, so if you ignore those verses, then you are the one who has more to learn about God's grace and what it is to walk in the Spirit. Again, our obedience to God's law has nothing to do with contributing anything towards earning our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.
 
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Soyeong

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No, the way you love God is by loving God-who He is-and then we want to imitate He who is love itself. The reason we feed the hungry is because we love our neighbor, not because we’re trying to prove our righteousness; for example; that would be a case of legalism.
I don't see a significant different between he position that God is a doer of righteous works, so the way to love God is by being a doer of righteous works and you saying that the way to love God is by living who God is and imitating him. God's law describes the way that someone who is righteous lives, such as with describing the way that Christ lived, which has nothing to do with him proving his righteousness.
 
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ARBITER01

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The point of Christianity is to be like Christ by living the way that he lived, which is why we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1).

This is correct.

The goal of obeying God's law has nothing to do with becoming self-righteous. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so you are contradicting yourself. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law, and in Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. There are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey, so if you ignore those verses, then you are the one who has more to learn about God's grace and what it is to walk in the Spirit. Again, our obedience to God's law has nothing to do with contributing anything towards earning our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

We are to obey Christ's commandments that He gives us now from The Holy Spirit, not the OT written commandments from The Father. This was already settled in Acts 15 for us Gentile believers by our Jewish Apostles.
 
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Soyeong

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We are saved from the consequences of unforgiven sins. We are gifted with Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit so we do not have to sin again, really have the power and Love to do righteous stuff all the time.
Does Love have to come before obedience?
Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of God's gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of His law, which again is what Titus 2:11-13 is describing. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, it doesn't just say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. Love does not before obedience, but rather being an obeyer of God is the way to love.
 
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Soyeong

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-Eternal Life salvation(The Life of God) is only obtained by receiving God's free gift, through or by belief in Jesus.​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

---
If a person (believer or unbeliever) is looking for a physical saving of their earthly life, that may be received through repentance of the sin or sins they are doing.
The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as with giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given as a gift. Similarly, eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).

There are many verses those show that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's law (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:18). These verses combined with the many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus show that God's law is His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, which is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience it him, such as Revelation 14:12, were those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who obeyed God's commandments.

The way to believe in God is by being a doer of His character traits, such as by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God's to her character traits. This is also the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and that exact image of His character (Hebrews 1:3).
 
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Soyeong

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This is correct.
Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

We are to obey Christ's commandments that He gives us now from The Holy Spirit, not the OT written commandments from The Father.
In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father, so he was not in disagreement with the Father about which commandments we should follow. Likewise, in John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not do that.

Likewise, I quoted Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:4-7, and Galatians 5:16-23 to show that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. Moreover, in Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law.

This was already settled in Acts 15 for us Gentile believers by our Jewish Apostles.
Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the Jerusalem Council was not debating whether followers of Christ should follow Christ, but rather they were debating whether salvation was by circumcision or by grace.
 
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ARBITER01

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Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Did the Roman church follow the Mosaic Law? How about the Corinthian church? How about any of the churches in the NT?

The answer is no because of Acts 15.

Jesus never taught us to follow the Mosaic law, He taught us to follow Him,...

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I am going to My Father.
 
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ARBITER01

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Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so the Jerusalem Council was not debating whether followers of Christ should follow Christ, but rather they were debating whether salvation was by circumcision or by grace.

I about missed this,...again you're incorrect,....

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.


The decision out of that gathering was that Gentiles were not required to obey the law of Moses.
 
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fhansen

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I don't see a significant different between he position that God is a doer of righteous works, so the way to love God is by being a doer of righteous works and you saying that the way to love God is by living who God is and imitating him. God's law describes the way that someone who is righteous lives, such as with describing the way that Christ lived, which has nothing to do with him proving his righteousness.
The difference is the difference between the old and new covenants. If doing is what it's all about first of all then Jesus didn't need to come, because no change was needed in us. But He said in Matt 5 and 23 that doing wasn't enough unless the inside had been cleansed and changed first of all. That's how our motivations become properly directed. And that change takes place as we turn to God in faith, becoming reconciled with the author of true righteousness rather than relying on ourselves. Then we have the power of the Holy Spirit working within us. Otherwise, why did Jesus come? Why did He need to come unless to effect that change?
 
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Soyeong

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Did the Roman church follow the Mosaic Law? How about the Corinthian church? How about any of the churches in the NT?
Indeed. In Romans 2:13-14, Paul said that it was only the doers of the Mosaic Law who will be justified and that Gentile believers were by natures doers of it, and in Romans 2:25, he said that the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law.

The answer is no because of Acts 15.

Jesus never taught us to follow the Mosaic law, He taught us to follow Him,...

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I am going to My Father.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walks (1 John 2:6).

I about missed this,...again you're incorrect,....

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.


The decision out of that gathering was that Gentiles were not required to obey the law of Moses.
In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God required circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Genesis 12:48, a Gentile who wanted to eat of the Passover lamb was required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against a Gentile correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed as if they had the authority to countermand God.

In Acts 15:5, Pharisees from among the believers agree with the men from Judea that Gentiles should obey the Mosaic Law, but did not agree that it was in order to become saved. In Acts 15:6-7, Peter made the case that Gentiles had heard and believe the Gospel message, which again called for our repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law, so Peter was affirming the position that Gentiles should obey it. Likewise, in Acts 15:8-9, Peter made the case that Gentiles had received the Spirit, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law, so again Peter was affirming the position that Gentiles should obey the Mosaic Law, but in Acts 15:10-11, he ruled that salvation is by grace rather than by circumcision that was proposed in Acts 15:1.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, so if Acts 15:10 had been referring to the Mosaic Law as being a burden that no one could bear instead of salvation by circumcision, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God's word and they would have been denying the word of faith that we proclaim.
 
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ARBITER01

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Indeed. In Romans 2:13-14, Paul said that it was only the doers of the Mosaic Law who will be justified and that Gentile believers were by natures doers of it, and in Romans 2:25, he said that the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Sorry but no. None of the churches followed the law of Moses

Acts 15 did away with any adherence to the law of Moses for Gentiles. Why do you keep trying to ignore that?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walks (1 John 2:6).

You're very tricky with you words.

We are not commanded to walk as He walked, we are commanded to do His works, as I quoted John 14:12. Jesus didn't say that if we believed in Moses we would do His works, He said that if we believed in "Him" ie Jesus.

Again, you're very tricky with your words.

In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God required circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Genesis 12:48, a Gentile who wanted to eat of the Passover lamb was required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against a Gentile correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed as if they had the authority to countermand God.

No.

I showed you the passage, let me show it to you again,....
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.


This was not about circumcision, this was about trying to get the Gentile Christians to adhere to the law of Moses, and our Jewish Apostles said no and sent a letter out to the churches stating their decision against such activities after their meeting.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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The point of Christianity is to be like Christ by living the way that he lived, which is why we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). The goal of obeying God's law has nothing to do with becoming self-righteous. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so you are contradicting yourself. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law, and in Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. There are many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey, so if you ignore those verses, then you are the one who has more to learn about God's grace and what it is to walk in the Spirit. Again, our obedience to God's law has nothing to do with contributing anything towards earning our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.
You are confusing justification with sanctification as you have often done before. Nothing new here.
 
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bling

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Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of God's gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of His law, which again is what Titus 2:11-13 is describing. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, it doesn't just say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. Love does not before obedience, but rather being an obeyer of God is the way to love.
Sometimes I wonder if you are reading my posts. God Loves us first and we thus can Love Him. Accepting His Love gives us access to Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit, allowing us to go on not sinning, be pure. Our obedience shows our Love.
Ae you confusing obedience with salvation? We "Obey" because of what we have been given and not to get anything.
 
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d taylor

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The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as with giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given as a gift. Similarly, eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).

There are many verses those show that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's law (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:18). These verses combined with the many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus show that God's law is His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, which is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience it him, such as Revelation 14:12, were those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who obeyed God's commandments.

The way to believe in God is by being a doer of His character traits, such as by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God's to her character traits. This is also the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and that exact image of His character (Hebrews 1:3).
-
Like i have stated before, you redefine the word belief. Belief simply means, being convinced something is true. Whether that is something you are told by another person or are reading in The Bible.

So Jesus states believe in Him for Eternal Life. A person will either believe what Jesus says or they do not.
 
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Soyeong

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The difference is the difference between the old and new covenants. If doing is what it's all about first of all then Jesus didn't need to come, because no change was needed in us. But He said in Matt 5 and 23 that doing wasn't enough unless the inside had been cleansed and changed first of all. That's how our motivations become properly directed. And that change takes place as we turn to God in faith, becoming reconciled with the author of true righteousness rather than relying on ourselves. Then we have the power of the Holy Spirit working within us. Otherwise, why did Jesus come? Why did He need to come unless to effect that change?
I agree that there is a difference between the Mosaic and New Covenants, though Jeremiah 31:33 says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the difference is not in regard to following the Torah. In other words, the New Covenant is still made with the same eternal God with the same eternal character traits, and therefore the same eternal laws for how to testify about His character traits.

In Matthew 4:15-23. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was the main theme of His ministry, and which was in accordance with him being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so Jesus did not make changes to it. In Matthew 4, Jesus consistently preceded a quote from what was written by saying "it is written...", but in Matthew 5, he consistently preceded a quote from what the people had heard being said by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

It is contradictory to think that we are relying on ourselves by relying on God's instructions. The author of true righteousness knows how to give good instructions in true righteousness and it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God instead of His instructions.
 
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fhansen

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I agree that there is a difference between the Mosaic and New Covenants, though Jeremiah 31:33 says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so the difference is not in regard to following the Torah. In other words, the New Covenant is still made with the same eternal God with the same eternal character traits, and therefore the same eternal laws for how to testify about His character traits.
Agreed. It’s all about how the laws is fulfilled, not about whether or not it must be fulfilled. The new covenant is not a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous, but the authentic means to fulfilling it.

And I still can’t help but perceive a difference between Paul’s obedience as a Pharisee and as a Christian in Phil 3.
 
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Soyeong

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Sometimes I wonder if you are reading my posts. God Loves us first and we thus can Love Him. Accepting His Love gives us access to Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit, allowing us to go on not sinning, be pure. Our obedience shows our Love.
Ae you confusing obedience with salvation? We "Obey" because of what we have been given and not to get anything.
Sorry if I've misunderstood your posts. I have not suggest that we need to obey in order to earn anything. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result or as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of those works is intrinsically the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. Jesus saves from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so again Jesus graciously teaching us to be doers of God's law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it.
 
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Soyeong

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Like i have stated before, you redefine the word belief. Belief simply means, being convinced something is true. Whether that is something you are told by another person or are reading in The Bible.

So Jesus states believe in Him for Eternal Life. A person will either believe what Jesus says or they do not.
I'm not redefining belief, but rather I am showing that there are a preponderance of verses and examples that connect our belief with our actions. For example, in Hebrews 11, every example of faith is not just an example of someone being convinced that something is true, but is an example of someone taking an action that expresses what they believe is true. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should just trust in God, but not in His instructions. Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments (Luke 10:25-28), so do you believe him or not?
 
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