The Way that God is Giving Us His Gift of Salvation

[fhansen]

Verse 11 makes it clear that the ruling in verse 10 was in regard to the means of salvation, which again was the issue that they were discussing. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so it is contradictory for someone to thinks that they do not need to obey the Law of Moses while also thinking that they need salvation from living in transgression of it.

Yes, again,
It’s all about how the law is fulfilled, not about whether or not it must be fulfilled. The new covenant is not a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous, but the authentic means to fulfilling it.

And I still can’t help but perceive the difference between Paul’s obedience as a Pharisee and as a Christian in Phil 3.

To know that we're sinners is one thing-that's a primary job of the law, to ultimately teach us that we're failures at obedience of it. So to actually obey the law is another thing. For that we need to turn to God first of all, truly acknowledging His existence, forgiveness, goodness, and of our need for Him always in order to be obedient and to have life and life abundantly. "With God all things are possible". "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." We need grace, the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling, to help us with that fulfillment. And that's a cooperative effort. I appreciate Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century bishop:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, again,
It’s all about how the law is fulfilled, not about whether or not it must be fulfilled. The new covenant is not a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous, but the authentic means to fulfilling it.

And I still can’t help but perceive the difference between Paul’s obedience as a Pharisee and as a Christian in Phil 3.

In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures diligently because they thought that in them they might find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they don't come to him that they might have life. Eternal life can be found in Scripture (Deuteronomy 30:11-20, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverb 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 14:12), so the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to know Jesus by being a doer of His character traits and come into a relationship with him for eternal life.

In Romans 10:2-4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so the misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as though righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, which are aspects of God's character that God's law was given to teach us how know Him by being doers of them.

In Philippians 3, Paul was in the same situation where he had been going through the motions of obeying God's law while neglecting weightier matters of the law, which is the way to know Jesus

To know that we're sinners is one thing-that's a primary job of the law, to ultimately teach us that we're failures at obedience of it. So to actually obey the law is another thing. For that we need to turn to God first of all, truly acknowledging His existence, forgiveness, goodness, and of our need for Him always in order to be obedient and to have life and life abundantly. "With God all things are possible". "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." We need grace, the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling, to help us with that fulfillment. And that's a cooperative effort. I appreciate Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century bishop:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

God's law was not just given to reveal our sin, but also to teach us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and so forth for other aspects of God's character. There would be no point in the law pointing out our failures if it did not lead us to repent and obey it through faith.

 

[Soyeong]

Sorry but no. None of the churches followed the law of Moses

Acts 15 did away with any adherence to the law of Moses for Gentiles. Why do you keep trying to ignore that?

I'm not ignoring that, but rather I'm making the case that that is an incorrect interpretation of Acts 15.

You're very tricky with you words.

We are not commanded to walk as He walked, we are commanded to do His works, as I quoted John 14:12. Jesus didn't say that if we believed in Moses we would do His works, He said that if we believed in "Him" ie Jesus.

Again, you're very tricky with your words.

How am I being tricky with my words? You claimed that Jesus never taught us to follow the Mosaic Law, but to follow him, so I showed that he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example. The way to follow Jesus is not by refusing to follow what he taught. In 1 John 2:6, it says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so I don't see how you can argue against that. In John 5:46-47, Jesus said for if they believed Moses, then they would believe him for Moses wrote about him, but if they do not believe his writings, the how will they believe his words? So we can't believe in Jesus while not also believing Moses. The same Father who gave the Law of Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it (Acts 3:25-26).

No.

I showed you the passage, let me show it to you again,....
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.

This was not about circumcision, this was about trying to get the Gentile Christians to adhere to the law of Moses, and our Jewish Apostles said no and sent a letter out to the churches stating their decision against such activities after their meeting.

In Acts 15:1-9, there were speakers from three groups:

1.) The men from Judea who wanted Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved (Acts 15:1)

2.) Pharisees from among the Believers who wanted Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses, but not in order to become saved (Acts 15:5)

3.) Peter who argued that Gentiles and heard and believed the Gospel and had received the Spirit, so they were saved without becoming circumcised first (Acts 15:6-9).

All three were in agreement that Gentiles should obey the Law of Moses, but #1 argued that salvation is by circumcision while #2 and #3 disagreed.

Acts 15:10-11 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

Verse 11 makes it clear that the ruling in verse 10 was in regard to the means of salvation, which again was the issue that they were discussing. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so it is contradictory for someone to think that they do not need to obey the Law of Moses while also thinking that they need salvation from living in transgression of it.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, again,

Sorry, I got who I was replying to mixed up, but it should be fixed now.

 

[fhansen]

God's law was not just given to reveal our sin, but also to teach us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and so forth for other aspects of God's character. There would be no point in the law pointing out our failures if it did not lead us to repent and obey it through faith.

And Paul said that, even though the law is right, holy, spiritual, and good, he was unable to obey correctly until Christ. And that’s why, for example, he emphasizes the preeminent position of love above all else in 1 Cor 13. That was a huge departure from his “obedience”, as a Pharisee which he excelled at.

 

[ARBITER01]

In Acts 15:1-9, there were speakers from three groups:

1.) The men from Judea who wanted Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved (Acts 15:1)

2.) Pharisees from among the Believers who wanted Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses, but not in order to become saved (Acts 15:5)

3.) Peter who argued that Gentiles and heard and believed the Gospel and had received the Spirit, so they were saved without becoming circumcised first (Acts 15:6-9).

All three were in agreement that Gentiles should obey the Law of Moses, but #1 argued that salvation is by circumcision while #2 and #3 disagreed.

Acts 15:10-11 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

Verse 11 makes it clear that the ruling in verse 10 was in regard to the means of salvation, which again was the issue that they were discussing. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so it is contradictory for someone to think that they do not need to obey the Law of Moses while also thinking that they need salvation from living in transgression of it.

No.

Let me post it again here for all to see,....

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.

The matter that was being considered was the adherence to the law of moses by the newborn Gentile Christians. It wasn't just circumcision, those believing Pharisees wanted them obeying the law of Moses instead of Jesus. They wanted them adhering to their Jewish religion instead of remaining free from it.

What was the outcome of that meeting?.....

Act 15:23 Writing by their hand these things: The apostles, the elders, and the brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia who are of the Gentiles: Greetings.
Act 15:24 Inasmuch as we have heard that some went out from among us and troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'that you must be circumcised and keep the law'--to whom we gave no such command--
Act 15:25 it seemed best to us, having come to be of the same mind, to send men being chosen to you, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men having given over their lives for the sake of the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also tell you the same things by word of mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to put on you no greater burden except for these necessary things:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from meat offered to idols, and from blood, and from anything strangled, and from fornication; from which keeping yourselves back, you will do well. Farewell.

We remain free from the OT law. It is dead. We are under a new law, the law of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

No.

Let me post it again here for all to see,....

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.

The matter that was being considered was the adherence to the law of moses by the newborn Gentile Christians. It wasn't just circumcision, those believing Pharisees wanted them obeying the law of Moses instead of Jesus. They wanted them adhering to their Jewish religion instead of remaining free from it.

The matter that they were discussing was whether salvation is by circumcision (Acts 15:1) or by grace (Acts 15:5) and Peter ruled that it was by grace (Acts 15:6-11). Again, everything that Peter argued in Acts 15:6-9 was in support of Gentiles obeying the Law of Moses.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be doers of the Mosaic Law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us form not being doers of the Mosaic Law, and the position that Gentiles are not required to obey the Mosaic Law is the position that Gentiles do not need salvation from not being a doer of it.

Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So it is contradictory for you to contrast following Jesus with following what he taught, we can't follow him by refusing to follow the religion that he taught, and the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted a ruling that Gentiles shouldn't follow Jesus.

What was the outcome of that meeting?.....

Act 15:23 Writing by their hand these things: The apostles, the elders, and the brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia who are of the Gentiles: Greetings.
Act 15:24 Inasmuch as we have heard that some went out from among us and troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'that you must be circumcised and keep the law'--to whom we gave no such command--
Act 15:25 it seemed best to us, having come to be of the same mind, to send men being chosen to you, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men having given over their lives for the sake of the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also tell you the same things by word of mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to put on you no greater burden except for these necessary things:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from meat offered to idols, and from blood, and from anything strangled, and from fornication; from which keeping yourselves back, you will do well. Farewell.

We remain free from the OT law. It is dead. We are under a new law, the law of Christ.

It is contradictory to treat Acts 15:19-21 as being an exhaustive list for mature believer in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow, such as with the greatest two commandments or those things spoken against in Romans 1:26-31, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, and Titus 3:1-3. It was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers, but rather it was given as a list in order to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused in Acts 15:21 by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so I see no justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is contrary to anything that Christ taught.

 

[ARBITER01]

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so I see no justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is contrary to anything that Christ taught.

If in fact anything that you've said was true here, then The Holy Spirit would have been teaching us to do such a thing all along, but He isn't.

Enjoy your deception.

Laters

 

[Soyeong]

If in fact anything that you've said was true here, then The Holy Spirit would have been teaching us to do such a thing all along, but He isn't.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law.

Enjoy your deception.

I'm not the one who is trying to turn the Bible against obeying truth.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm not the one who is trying to turn the Bible against obeying truth.

Oh yes you are, you want people to obey Moses instead of Jesus. You want people to obey the old covenant instead of the new that Jesus established by His death.

You was deceived into this and you want other people to abide by the lie also.

That's what you are selling here, and fortunately The Holy Spirit is able to help people know better.

 

[Jo555]

Indeed. In Romans 2:13-14, Paul said that it was only the doers of the Mosaic Law who will be justified and that Gentile believers were by natures doers of it, and in Romans 2:25, he said that the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law.


In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walks (1 John 2:6).


In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God required circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Genesis 12:48, a Gentile who wanted to eat of the Passover lamb was required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against a Gentile correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed as if they had the authority to countermand God.

In Acts 15:5, Pharisees from among the believers agree with the men from Judea that Gentiles should obey the Mosaic Law, but did not agree that it was in order to become saved. In Acts 15:6-7, Peter made the case that Gentiles had heard and believe the Gospel message, which again called for our repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law, so Peter was affirming the position that Gentiles should obey it. Likewise, in Acts 15:8-9, Peter made the case that Gentiles had received the Spirit, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law, so again Peter was affirming the position that Gentiles should obey the Mosaic Law, but in Acts 15:10-11, he ruled that salvation is by grace rather than by circumcision that was proposed in Acts 15:1.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, so if Acts 15:10 had been referring to the Mosaic Law as being a burden that no one could bear instead of salvation by circumcision, then they would have been in direct disagreement with God's word and they would have been denying the word of faith that we proclaim.

 

[Jo555]

You really do need to take the scriptures in context. It appears to me that you are picking and choosing to validate your point. Yes, Romans says that those who fulfill the law will be declared righteous, but if you continue reading it stresses that none are righteous. No one can do this because, as Jesus said, it is a matter of the heart ... We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Romans clearly states it is by grace through faith.

Romans 3 is very clear that none are righteous. The law makes us conscious of our sin.

You really pull so much from here and there, but why don't we start with one at a time and view it within context.

 

[Jo555]

You really do need to take the scriptures in context. It appears to me that you are picking and I'm to validate your point. Yes, Romans says that those who fulfill the law will be declared righteous, but if you continue reading it stresses that none are righteous. No one can do this because, as Jesus said, it is a matter of the heart ... We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Romans clearly states it is by grace through faith.

Romans 3 is very clear that none are righteous. The law makes us conscious of our sin.

You really pull so much from here and there, but why don't we start with one at a time and view it within context.

And you need to remember the law was just a shadow if what Father would do in Christ.

You really do need to take the scriptures in context. It appears to me that you are picking and choosing to validate your point. Yes, Romans says that those who fulfill the law will be declared righteous, but if you continue reading it stresses that none are righteous. No one can do this because, as Jesus said, it is a matter of the heart ... We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Romans clearly states it is by grace through faith.

Romans 3 is very clear that none are righteous. The law makes us conscious of our sin.

You really pull so much from here and there, but why don't we start with one at a time and view it within context.

It's really not hard to understand.

We have laws in society that help keep order because we all are not walking in love. The law cannot change us at heart, but it can keep some semblance of order until our hearts are changed. The best the law can do is throw us in prison due to our sin. While in prison we can come to the realization that we need help.

It was never put in place to save us because at heart we cannot fully keep the law. Jesus came to fulfill the law for us by his finished work on the cross of which all who believe have been given a new heart by which they have become the righteousness of God.

 

[Soyeong]

You really do need to take the scriptures in context. It appears to me that you are picking and choosing to validate your point. Yes, Romans says that those who fulfill the law will be declared righteous, but if you continue reading it stresses that none are righteous. No one can do this because, as Jesus said, it is a matter of the heart ... We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Romans clearly states it is by grace through faith.

Romans 3 is very clear that none are righteous. The law makes us conscious of our sin.

You really pull so much from here and there, but why don't we start with one at a time and view it within context.

I believe that all of the Bible is true, so one different books say on the same topic should be understood within context of each other. Show that my position is supported by multiple books of the Bible is something that strengthens my position and shows that I am not taking it out of the context of the rest of the Bible. I'm not taking something out of context unless I am using a verse to support a point that means something different when it is understood in context, so if you think that I am doing that, then please make the case for it

There are many people who are described as being righteous by the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is not the case that there is no one who is righteous, but rather Romans 3:10 is quoting Psalms 14:1-3, which says in context that there is no one who is righteous among those who say that there is no God. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness from God comes through perfect obedience and no one is righteous because we all fall short of that, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophet is through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

And you need to remember the law was just a shadow if what Father would do in Christ.
It's really not hard to understand.

Remember that you added the word "just" whereas the Bible is emphasizing the importance of continuing to observe God's law because it foreshadows Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadows Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to observe Passover. God's law teaches us how to point to Christ and we should live in a way that points to Christ rather than a way that points away from him.

We have laws in society that help keep order because we all are not walking in love. The law cannot change us at heart, but it can keep some semblance of order until our hearts are changed. The best the law can do is throw us in prison due to our sin. While in prison we can come to the realization that we need help.

It is God who changes us to be more like Christ and follow his example of obedience to God's law is what that change looks like. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us to do what is godly, righteous, and good.

It was never put in place to save us because at heart we cannot fully keep the law. Jesus came to fulfill the law for us by his finished work on the cross of which all who believe have been given a new heart by which they have become the righteousness of God.

We do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to God's law because it was never given as a way to earn our salvation even through perfect obedience, rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of His is law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus came to fulfill the law by spending his ministry teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example. Jesus did not say anything that alluded to his work on the cross anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount, so you are interpreting that anachronistically instead of in the way that his audience would have understood it. Jesus also did not say anything about fulfilling the law so that we don't have to. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). God expresses is righteousness by being a doer of righteous works, so becoming the righteousness of God means that we are becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law.

 

[Jo555]

I believe that all of the Bible is true, so one different books say on the same topic should be understood within context of each other. Show that my position is supported by multiple books of the Bible is something that strengthens my position and shows that I am not taking it out of the context of the rest of the Bible. I'm not taking something out of context unless I am using a verse to support a point that means something different when it is understood in context, so if you think that I am doing that, then please make the case for it

There are many people who are described as being righteous by the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is not the case that there is no one who is righteous, but rather Romans 3:10 is quoting Psalms 14:1-3, which says in context that there is no one who is righteous among those who say that there is no God. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness from God comes through perfect obedience and no one is righteous because we all fall short of that, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophet is through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.



Remember that you added the word "just" whereas the Bible is emphasizing the importance of continuing to observe God's law because it foreshadows Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadows Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to observe Passover. God's law teaches us how to point to Christ and we should live in a way that points to Christ rather than a way that points away from him.


It is God who changes us to be more like Christ and follow his example of obedience to God's law is what that change looks like. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us to do what is godly, righteous, and good.


We do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to God's law because it was never given as a way to earn our salvation even through perfect obedience, rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of His is law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus came to fulfill the law by spending his ministry teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example. Jesus did not say anything that alluded to his work on the cross anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount, so you are interpreting that anachronistically instead of in the way that his audience would have understood it. Jesus also did not say anything about fulfilling the law so that we don't have to. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). God expresses is righteousness by being a doer of righteous works, so becoming the righteousness of God means that we are becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not against the law. It was just a shadow of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...loving God with all, and neighbors as self. In these two laws are all laws fulfilled because if you love God and neighbor, you won't murder, steal, commit adultery. We are kept in the law by God's love.

Let me say it this way. Someone can tell you about love, but having knowledge about love is just a shadow of experiencing love.

 

[Jo555]

I believe that all of the Bible is true, so one different books say on the same topic should be understood within context of each other. Show that my position is supported by multiple books of the Bible is something that strengthens my position and shows that I am not taking it out of the context of the rest of the Bible. I'm not taking something out of context unless I am using a verse to support a point that means something different when it is understood in context, so if you think that I am doing that, then please make the case for it

There are many people who are described as being righteous by the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is not the case that there is no one who is righteous, but rather Romans 3:10 is quoting Psalms 14:1-3, which says in context that there is no one who is righteous among those who say that there is no God. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness from God comes through perfect obedience and no one is righteous because we all fall short of that, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophet is through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.



Remember that you added the word "just" whereas the Bible is emphasizing the importance of continuing to observe God's law because it foreshadows Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadows Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to observe Passover. God's law teaches us how to point to Christ and we should live in a way that points to Christ rather than a way that points away from him.


It is God who changes us to be more like Christ and follow his example of obedience to God's law is what that change looks like. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us to do what is godly, righteous, and good.


We do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to God's law because it was never given as a way to earn our salvation even through perfect obedience, rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of His is law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus came to fulfill the law by spending his ministry teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example. Jesus did not say anything that alluded to his work on the cross anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount, so you are interpreting that anachronistically instead of in the way that his audience would have understood it. Jesus also did not say anything about fulfilling the law so that we don't have to. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). God expresses is righteousness by being a doer of righteous works, so becoming the righteousness of God means that we are becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law.

Romans 4:11Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)

16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.”d This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.

 

[Jo555]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not against the law. It was just a shadow of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...loving God with all, and neighbors as self. In these two laws are all laws fulfilled because if you love God and neighbor, you won't murder, steal, commit adultery. We are kept in the law by God's love.

Let me say it this way. Someone can tell you about love, but having knowledge about love is just a shadow of experiencing love.

They were counted righteous because of their faith ...


Romans 4:11Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)

16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.”d This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.

 

[Jo555]

I believe that all of the Bible is true, so one different books say on the same topic should be understood within context of each other. Show that my position is supported by multiple books of the Bible is something that strengthens my position and shows that I am not taking it out of the context of the rest of the Bible. I'm not taking something out of context unless I am using a verse to support a point that means something different when it is understood in context, so if you think that I am doing that, then please make the case for it

There are many people who are described as being righteous by the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is not the case that there is no one who is righteous, but rather Romans 3:10 is quoting Psalms 14:1-3, which says in context that there is no one who is righteous among those who say that there is no God. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness from God comes through perfect obedience and no one is righteous because we all fall short of that, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophet is through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.



Remember that you added the word "just" whereas the Bible is emphasizing the importance of continuing to observe God's law because it foreshadows Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadows Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to observe Passover. God's law teaches us how to point to Christ and we should live in a way that points to Christ rather than a way that points away from him.


It is God who changes us to be more like Christ and follow his example of obedience to God's law is what that change looks like. God's law does not just reveal our sin, but also teaches us to do what is godly, righteous, and good.


We do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to God's law because it was never given as a way to earn our salvation even through perfect obedience, rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of His is law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus came to fulfill the law by spending his ministry teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example. Jesus did not say anything that alluded to his work on the cross anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount, so you are interpreting that anachronistically instead of in the way that his audience would have understood it. Jesus also did not say anything about fulfilling the law so that we don't have to. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). God expresses is righteousness by being a doer of righteous works, so becoming the righteousness of God means that we are becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law.

Short on time today, but I'd say you are in error. Listen I love the law but obedience to the Law will not save me. You are missing the point.

 

[Soyeong]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not against the law. It was just a shadow of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...loving God with all, and neighbors as self. In these two laws are all laws fulfilled because if you love God and neighbor, you won't murder, steal, commit adultery. We are kept in the law by God's love.

Let me say it this way. Someone can tell you about love, but having knowledge about love is just a shadow of experiencing love.

I agree that it is better to experience being a doer of love, then to just know about how to love, though the point of God's law is to teach us to experience being a doer of love.

Romans 4:11Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)

16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.”d This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.

The only way for some to attain a character character trait is by faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of works, but someone attaining a character trait means that they are becoming a doer of that character trait. For example, there is no amount of courageous works that someone is required to have done first in order to earn courageousness as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to becoming courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true of righteousness and every other character trait. God's law was never given as instructions for how to earn our righteousness, which is why there are many verses that speak against that fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, but it was given as instructions for how to be a doer of righteous works, so it is what become a doer of through faith when we become righteous through faith.

Short on time today, but I'd say you are in error. Listen I love the law but obedience to the Law will not save me. You are missing the point.

Likewise, I agree that God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation as the result, rather, it is intrinsically what we are becoming a doer of when we are becoming saved from not being a doer of it. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law, which again is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13, where our salvation is described as being trained by grace to be doers of those works, so that is the way that God is giving us His gift of salvation.

 

[Jo555]

Short on time today, but I'd say you are in error. Listen I love the law but obedience to the Law will not save me. You are missing the point.

I agree that it is better to experience being a doer of love, then to just know about how to love, though the point of God's law is to teach us to experience being a doer of love.


The only way for some to attain a character character trait is by faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of works, but someone attaining a character trait means that they are becoming a doer of that character trait. For example, there is no amount of courageous works that someone is required to have done first in order to earn courageousness as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to becoming courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true of righteousness and every other character trait. God's law was never given as instructions for how to earn our righteousness, which is why there are many verses that speak against that fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, but it was given as instructions for how to be a doer of righteous works, so it is what become a doer of through faith when we become righteous through faith.


Likewise, I agree that God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation as the result, rather, it is intrinsically what we are becoming a doer of when we are becoming saved from not being a doer of it. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law, which again is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13, where our salvation is described as being trained by grace to be doers of those works, so that is the way that God is giving us His gift of salvation.

Man, wish i had more time as this forum has some great stuff to jump into... I'm trying to find thr balance in doing that and getting personal stuff done. Going to look at Titus in context with more time. I think it is a great benefit to look at the whole context and book, within the message of the whole bible.

Without getting into Titus right now and from what i know of scripture, and as clearly stated in Romans and elsewhere in the bible, works is the result of faith, like faith expressing itself in love, as James would put it.

But as Paul said there is another influence at war with our new life, and we have been empowered to deny it or our spiritual life will basically be overshadowed by death. It's like giving a seed no sunlight. You want to grow, get in the Son-light. What others would call regeneration.

But it does not detract from our salvation by grace through faith.

It just sounds like to me you have leaven in your bread and a little leaven leavens the whole bread.

Not that i have it all right myself ...