The Way that God is Giving Us His Gift of Salvation

[Soyeong]

Our obedience to God's law has never been about trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of God's law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of God's law. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is again the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

 

[bling]

Suppose there is explicit faith and implicit faith. The former is when we confess in a self-aware way what we fully believe is the answer to a certain question. This is based on our self-aware use of our standards of evidence on the range of answers we can think of to judge.



There is also, however, implicit faith, in which it can be said that we *would* believe, if given the right evidence. The damned, then, are not those who do not believe by the time that they die, but those who, by the time they have died, have decided that they would never accept Christ even if He directly proved Himself to them anyway. This might be why some people will be confused, initially, that they have been saved, since they never knew altogether when alive, yet He will say unto them that they did rightly by Him.



Every mature adult has been gifted with “faith” and use that faith throughout their lives. The “faith we do have does not become “saving faith” until we turn our faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Most of the time we have faith in ourselves to both do and not do and think stuff.

Atheists and agnostics actually have to have a great deal of “faith” to believe God does not exist.

Atheists and agnostics talk about a “lack of evidence” to have “faith” in God. That is not “faith” they are looking for, but knowledge of God’s existence.

To have “faith” in a Creator is extremely easy since every tree around us is evidence of a creator, if we allow the tree to be evidence. The atheist or agnostic cannot explain life, so the tree does not support the nonexistence of God.

Saving faith is not accepting “Christ or God” like we might think, but humbly accepting God’s Love (God is Love). The problem is: God is offering an unconditional, sacrificial, unselfish gift of Love (mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness/help), but we have to receive that gift as it is given (as pure charity) and man does not like to accept charity.

Just the very little faith needed to believe there is God (which you have to be a fool not to believe) is about all that is needed to humbly accept an undeserved very needed gift from your enemy God. You are like a soldier struggling to win against a very power enemy you hate but know you can’t beat. You have run out of hope in self and thus turn to this hated enemy (God) with just that little “faith” in His Love which would allow Him to give you just some undeserved relieve. Again, you are not joining your enemy or suddenly Loving your hated enemy, just wimping out and giving up.

Yes, there comes a time with most humans at which they will never accept God’s charity (only God knows this), since they have continuously refused it in the past. That refusing of God’s Love will keep them out of heaven, since they do not want Godly type Love and heaven is one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love. These people would not be happy in heaven.

 

[Soyeong]

Suppose there is explicit faith and implicit faith. The former is when we confess in a self-aware way what we fully believe is the answer to a certain question. This is based on our self-aware use of our standards of evidence on the range of answers we can think of to judge.


There is also, however, implicit faith, in which it can be said that we *would* believe, if given the right evidence. The damned, then, are not those who do not believe by the time that they die, but those who, by the time they have died, have decided that they would never accept Christ even if He directly proved Himself to them anyway. This might be why some people will be confused, initially, that they have been saved, since they never knew altogether when alive, yet He will say unto them that they did rightly by Him.



Every mature adult has been gifted with “faith” and use that faith throughout their lives. The “faith we do have does not become “saving faith” until we turn our faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Most of the time we have faith in ourselves to both do and not do and think stuff.

Atheists and agnostics actually have to have a great deal of “faith” to believe God does not exist.

Atheists and agnostics talk about a “lack of evidence” to have “faith” in God. That is not “faith” they are looking for, but knowledge of God’s existence.

To have “faith” in a Creator is extremely easy since every tree around us is evidence of a creator, if we allow the tree to be evidence. The atheist or agnostic cannot explain life, so the tree does not support the nonexistence of God.

Saving faith is not accepting “Christ or God” like we might think, but humbly accepting God’s Love (God is Love). The problem is: God is offering an unconditional, sacrificial, unselfish gift of Love (mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness/help), but we have to receive that gift as it is given (as pure charity) and man does not like to accept charity.

Just the very little faith needed to believe there is God (which you have to be a fool not to believe) is about all that is needed to humbly accept an undeserved very needed gift from your enemy God. You are like a soldier struggling to win against a very power enemy you hate but know you can’t beat. You have run out of hope in self and thus turn to this hated enemy (God) with just that little “faith” in His Love which would allow Him to give you just some undeserved relieve. Again, you are not joining your enemy or suddenly Loving your hated enemy, just wimping out and giving up.

Yes, there comes a time with most humans at which they will never accept God’s charity (only God knows this), since they have continuously refused it in the past. That refusing of God’s Love will keep them out of heaven, since they do not want Godly type Love and heaven is one huge Love Feast of only Godly type Love. These people would not be happy in heaven.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Believing in God is not just about believing that He exists, but also about believing that there is therefore a way that we ought to live. In other words, the way to believe in God is by believing that we ought to be a doer of His character traits, so the significance of our good works is not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather it is the way to have faith in who God is to be the guide for how we ought to live our lives, and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved. For example by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 4:15-23), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God's other character traits.

This is also the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law. In other words, the Son is the living embodiment of holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth for other aspects of God's character, and the way to believe in the Son is by being a doer of his character traits in accordance with his example. In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of people who had saving faith in spite of having limit knowledge of the incarnation of the Son who nevertheless had access to the Father through the Son by embodying his character traits.

This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith/belief/trust in God with our obedience to Him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by being an doer of His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight.

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given as a gift. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), which is through being a doer of His character traits, and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), which is also why Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying it (Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17).

Sin is what is contrary to God's character, such as with righteousness being in accordance with God's character while unrighteousness is sin and sin is the transgression of God's law because it was giving to divide between what is in accordance with our contrary to God's character. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we still continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of the gift of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law, which again is what Titus 2:11-14 is describing.

 

[bling]

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Believing in God is not just about believing that He exists, but also about believing that there is therefore a way that we ought to live. In other words, the way to believe in God is by believing that we ought to be a doer of His character traits, so the significance of our good works is not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather it is the way to have faith in who God is to be the guide for how we ought to live our lives, and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved. For example by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 4:15-23), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God's other character traits.

This is also the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law. In other words, the Son is the living embodiment of holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth for other aspects of God's character, and the way to believe in the Son is by being a doer of his character traits in accordance with his example. In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of people who had saving faith in spite of having limit knowledge of the incarnation of the Son who nevertheless had access to the Father through the Son by embodying his character traits.

This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith/belief/trust in God with our obedience to Him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by being an doer of His instructions in all of our ways and He will make our way straight.

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given as a gift. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), which is through being a doer of His character traits, and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 723), which is also why Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying it (Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17).

Sin is what is contrary to God's character, such as with righteousness being in accordance with God's character while unrighteousness is sin and sin is the transgression of God's law because it was giving to divide between what is in accordance with our contrary to God's character. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we still continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of the gift of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law, which again is what Titus 2:11-14 is describing.

There are lots of wonderful things the "Disciple" has the privilege and honor of doing, but we are talking about what the Non-Christian must do to be saved. The non-Christians does not have Godly type Love to motivate (compel) him/her to do this good stuff, so what can and must the nonbeliever do?
At lease early on the non-Christian is burden by hurting others in the past (sin) and might try lots of stuff to relieve this pain, but nothing but God's forgiveness will relieve the pain.
Do you believe, if the nonbeliever humbly surrenders to his enemy (God) seeking undeserved help/charity in the form of forgiveness and be willingness to accept the undeserved help as pure charity, God will help him/her?
The sinner is doing this for purely selfish reasons (relieve of his burden he deserves to have) which is a sin, but will God shower him/her with unbelievable wonderful gifts including salvation?

 

[fhansen]

Our obedience to God's law has never been about trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of God's law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of God's law. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is again the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

I’d only emphasize that grace is the empowerment, the righteousness, the work of the Holy Spirit, the love that enables us to finally do the right thing with or without regard to the law. This comes about as God puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts, as He places a new heart and spirit within us to paraphrase some of the OT prophecies. He justifies us. And that comes about as we turn to Him first of all in faith, rather than turn to the law to justify ourselves, relying on Him and the righteousness that comes from Him rather than relying on ourselves and our own “righteousness” based on the law IOW. Grace is essential-and is made most universally available through Christ now, "in the fullness of time".

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 2:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

 

[Soyeong]

I’d only emphasize that grace is the empowerment, the righteousness, the work of the Holy Spirit, the love that enables us to finally do the right thing with or without regard to the law. This comes about as God puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts, as He places a new heart and spirit within us to paraphrase some of the OT prophecies. He justifies us. And that comes about as we turn to Him first of all in faith, rather than turn to the law to justify ourselves, relying on Him and the righteousness that comes from Him rather than relying on ourselves and our own “righteousness” based on the law IOW. Grace is essential-and is made most universally available through Christ now, "in the fullness of time".

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 2:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

The way to become righteous is a different issue than what we are becoming when we become righteous. The only way for someone to attain a character trait is by believing that they ought to be a doer of that character trait apart from being required to do a certain amount of works in order to earn it as the result, but to become someone with a character trait means to become a doer of that trait. For example, there are no amount of courageous works that someone is requires to have done first in order order to earn becoming courageous, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith, however, it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. God's law is His instructions for how to be a doer of righteous works, not for how to become righteous, but rather it is what we become a doer of when we become righteous through faith.

In Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith. In Romans 3:27, the same faith by which we declared righteous by faith apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.

God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in his instructions and it is contradictory to contrast relying on God with relying on God's instructions. Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that we can become self-righteous by relying on God's instructions. If God's law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God does not want us to become self-righteous, then it would follow that God therefore wants to be disobeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to Him. So God's law was never given as instructions for how to justify ourselves, but rather it was given as instructions for how to testify about God's righteousness. Likewise, God's law wasn't given as instructions for how to establish our own goodness apart from Him, but raster it was given as instructions for how to testify about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16).

 

[Soyeong]

There are lots of wonderful things the "Disciple" has the privilege and honor of doing, but we are talking about what the Non-Christian must do to be saved. The non-Christians does not have Godly type Love to motivate (compel) him/her to do this good stuff, so what can and must the nonbeliever do?
At lease early on the non-Christian is burden by hurting others in the past (sin) and might try lots of stuff to relieve this pain, but nothing but God's forgiveness will relieve the pain.
Do you believe, if the nonbeliever humbly surrenders to his enemy (God) seeking undeserved help/charity in the form of forgiveness and be willingness to accept the undeserved help as pure charity, God will help him/her?
The sinner is doing this for purely selfish reasons (relieve of his burden he deserves to have) which is a sin, but will God shower him/her with unbelievable wonderful gifts including salvation?

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so the way that a non-Christian is being saved from not being an obeyer of God's law is intrinsically by repenting by becoming an obeyer of it through faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Our obedience to God's law has never been about trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of God's law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of God's law. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is again the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

God has given us the gift of Christ leading to salvation totally by His grace, totally apart from the Law. We are not under Law at any time. We are continually under grace, otherwise if we try and follow the Law even as believers, all we are accomplishing is self righteousness which is a filthy rag in God's sight. The Righteousness of Christ comes to us as a free gift, not of works lest any should boast.

Because I am saved by God's grace, I am totally lawless and am rejoicing in the freedom from bondage to it. Because Jesus has made me free, I am free indeed!

 

[fhansen]

The way to become righteous is a different issue than what we are becoming when we become righteous. The only way for someone to attain a character trait is by believing that they ought to be a doer of that character trait apart from being required to do a certain amount of works in order to earn it as the result, but to become someone with a character trait means to become a doer of that trait. For example, there are no amount of courageous works that someone is requires to have done first in order order to earn becoming courageous, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith, however, it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. God's law is His instructions for how to be a doer of righteous works, not for how to become righteous, but rather it is what we become a doer of when we become righteous through faith.

In Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith. In Romans 3:27, the same faith by which we declared righteous by faith apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it.

God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in his instructions and it is contradictory to contrast relying on God with relying on God's instructions. Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that we can become self-righteous by relying on God's instructions. If God's law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God does not want us to become self-righteous, then it would follow that God therefore wants to be disobeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to Him. So God's law was never given as instructions for how to justify ourselves, but rather it was given as instructions for how to testify about God's righteousness. Likewise, God's law wasn't given as instructions for how to establish our own goodness apart from Him, but raster it was given as instructions for how to testify about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16).

God wants our obedience to be motivated by love, not legalism. That love comes from Him as the Source. We receive it as a gift, the result of turning to and relying on Him.
“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5

That is grace. Yes, we have to put effort into it, we must step forward and express that gift, that love, “investing our talents”. But it’s a new and different righteousness, the real thing.

“…as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phil 3:4-9

 

[Soyeong]

God has given us the gift of Christ leading to salvation totally by His grace, totally apart from the Law. We are not under Law at any time. We are continually under grace, otherwise if we try and follow the Law even as believers, all we are accomplishing is self righteousness which is a filthy rag in God's sight. The Righteousness of Christ comes to us as a free gift, not of works lest any should boast.

If you are not disagreeing with the verses that I quoted to support my position, then please explain why you think that I have misinterpret and how you think that they should be correctly interpreted.

Again, Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so God graciously teaching us to be doers of His law is intrinsically the way that he is saving us from not being doer of His law, so obedience to God's law can't be removed from the concept of being saved from not obeying it. The position that we are not under God's law at any time is the position that we have no obligation to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, that we have no need of salvation from sin, we don't need the Gospel message call for us to repent from our sin, and that we have no need of grace, and that we have no need of Jesus to have himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but the reality is that God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from sin, otherwise God would have no ground by which to judge the world.

Again, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart form him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to be knowers of God and Jesus, which is eternal life (Joh 17:3), and which again is salvation by grace through faith. Same with Titus 2:11-13. The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey His law, but you want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey His law. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, so anyone who is not under His law is not under grace.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy, so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we are relying on ourselves by relying on God's instructions. God is not a commander of filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). For someone to have a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait, such as for someone to be courageous means that they are a doer of courageous works, so the gift of becoming righteous is the gift of becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law.

Because I am saved by God's grace, I am totally lawless and am rejoicing in the freedom from bondage to it. Because Jesus has made me free, I am free indeed!

In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he accomplished. In other words, the freedom that we have in Christ is not the freedom to sin, but the freedom from it. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is lawlessness that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

 

[Soyeong]

God wants our obedience to be motivated by love, not legalism. That love comes from Him as the Source. We receive it as a gift, the result of turning to and relying on Him.
“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5

How do you define "legalism"?

The way to love God is by being a doer of His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice and the way to love holiness is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as His is holy. In other words, everything that God has chosen to command was specifically commanded in order to teach us how to love different aspects of His character, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments.

That is grace. Yes, we have to put effort into it, we must step forward and express that gift, that love, “investing our talents”. But it’s a new and different righteousness, the real thing.

There are not different types of righteousness. God is righteous and He has given instructions for how to testify about His righteousness through His law. Jesus expressed the righteousness of God through setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law.

“…as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phil 3:4-9

God's way is the way to experience knowing Him through being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24 those who know God know that He delights in being a doer of steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in being a doer of God's character traits in obedience to His law is the way to know Him, which is also the way to know the Son who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. So the goal of God's law is to teach us how to know Him and Jesus through being a doer of His character traits, which is God's gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

So Philippians 3:4-9 should not be interpreted as saying that we just need to focus on knowing Christ and that God is a commander of dung, but rather Paul had been going through the motions of obeying God's law, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as dung.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you are not disagreeing with the verses that I quoted to support my position, then please explain why you think that I have misinterpret and how you think that they should be correctly interpreted.

Again, Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so God graciously teaching us to be doers of His law is intrinsically the way that he is saving us from not being doer of His law, so obedience to God's law can't be removed from the concept of being saved from not obeying it. The position that we are not under God's law at any time is the position that we have no obligation to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, that we have no need of salvation from sin, we don't need the Gospel message call for us to repent from our sin, and that we have no need of grace, and that we have no need of Jesus to have himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but the reality is that God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from sin, otherwise God would have no ground by which to judge the world.

Again, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart form him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to be knowers of God and Jesus, which is eternal life (Joh 17:3), and which again is salvation by grace through faith. Same with Titus 2:11-13. The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey His law, but you want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey His law. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, so anyone who is not under His law is not under grace.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy, so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we are relying on ourselves by relying on God's instructions. God is not a commander of filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). For someone to have a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait, such as for someone to be courageous means that they are a doer of courageous works, so the gift of becoming righteous is the gift of becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law.


In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he accomplished. In other words, the freedom that we have in Christ is not the freedom to sin, but the freedom from it. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is lawlessness that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

I am lawless because I am not in any way conscious of the Law. The purpose of the Law is to show a sinner how sinful he is and that he needs Christ as Saviour. But after I received Christ, the Law has ceased from having any influence on me, because my sinfulness has been nailed to the Cross and therefore any guilt resulting from sin has been totally removed from me through Jesus taking the full eternal penalty for sin. After receiving Christ I was baptised with the Spirit, and He continually puts Christ before me so I follow him. This is the will of God, that I believe on Him whom He has sent. I do not make any contribution of myself to my walk in Christ, because that would lead to self righteousness. But I have the righteousness of Christ as a free gift, and so my life consists in continually resting in Christ trust Him to continue His work in me to prepare me for the day when I meet Him face to face.

 

[Soyeong]

I am lawless because I am not in any way conscious of the Law. The purpose of the Law is to show a sinner how sinful he is and that he needs Christ as Saviour. But after I received Christ, the Law has ceased from having any influence on me, because my sinfulness has been nailed to the Cross and therefore any guilt resulting from sin has been totally removed from me through Jesus taking the full eternal penalty for sin. After receiving Christ I was baptised with the Spirit, and He continually puts Christ before me so I follow him. This is the will of God, that I believe on Him whom He has sent. I do not make any contribution of myself to my walk in Christ, because that would lead to self righteousness. But I have the righteousness of Christ as a free gift, and so my life consists in continually resting in Christ trust Him to continue His work in me to prepare me for the day when I meet Him face to face.

Regardless of whether or not you are conscious of God's law, it should describe the way the followers of Christ should live as it describes the way that Christ lived. If the way that someone lives is not described by God's law, then they are lawless and the Bible has a lot of negative things to say about lawlessness, such as in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. God's law does not just reveal our sin and our need for Savior, but also teaches us the way that he saves us from living in sin by leading us to live in obedience to it. God's law is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so the way to receive Christ is by obeying God's law. In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh. God has straightforwardly made His will known through what He has commanded. God's law was never given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. It is contradictory to trust in God, but not in His instructions. In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, God's law is described as the good way were we will find rest for our souls, but people don't want to walk in it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Regardless of whether or not you are conscious of God's law, it should describe the way the followers of Christ should live as it describes the way that Christ lived. If the way that someone lives is not described by God's law, then they are lawless and the Bible has a lot of negative things to say about lawlessness, such as in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. God's law does not just reveal our sin and our need for Savior, but also teaches us the way that he saves us from living in sin by leading us to live in obedience to it. God's law is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so the way to receive Christ is by obeying God's law. In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh. God has straightforwardly made His will known through what He has commanded. God's law was never given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. It is contradictory to trust in God, but not in His instructions. In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, God's law is described as the good way were we will find rest for our souls, but people don't want to walk in it.

I don't try to live as Christ lived, because that would be self-righteousness on my part. I just allow myself to be led of the Spirit day by day. There is nothing I can do of myself to contribute to Jesus' workmanship in me. He does it, and I just go with the flow of the Spirit.

I think you have more to learn about God's grace and what it is to walk in the Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

The way to love God is by being a doer of His character traits

No, the way you love God is by loving God-who He is-and then we want to imitate He who is love itself. The reason we feed the hungry is because we love our neighbor, not because we’re trying to prove our righteousness; for example; that would be a case of legalism.

 

[mmittcheljohnsons]

Hi,
This sounds amazing as I found it
very much useful and informative to be honest. Also, I have gone through this
post which definitely helped me out a lot as a new member I am looking forward
for more such discussions.

Thanks

 

[bling]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so the way that a non-Christian is being saved from not being an obeyer of God's law is intrinsically by repenting by becoming an obeyer of it through faith.

We are saved from the consequences of unforgiven sins. We are gifted with Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit so we do not have to sin again, really have the power and Love to do righteous stuff all the time.
Does Love have to come before obedience?

 

[d taylor]

-

​

Eternal Life salvation(The Life of God) is only obtained by receiving God's free gift, through or by belief in Jesus.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
---
If a person (believer or unbeliever) is looking for a physical saving of their earthly life, that may be received through repentance of the sin or sins they are doing.

 

[David Lamb]

We are saved from the consequences of unforgiven sins. We are gifted with Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit so we do not have to sin again, really have the power and Love to do righteous stuff all the time.
Does Love have to come before obedience?

Sorry, but what do you mean when you say that we are saved from the consequences of unforgiven sins? If God does not forgive our sins, then we are not saved from them or their consequences. Praise God, the bible tells Christians:

“In Him (Christ) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:7 NKJV)

If we had just one sin that was not forgiven, how could we go to heaven?

 

[AbbaLove]

Every mature adult has been gifted with “faith” and use that faith throughout their lives. The “faith we do have does not become “saving faith” until we turn our faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Unfortunately too many so-called "mature" believe the evidence of a benevolent Creator is Evolution. The True Benevolent Creator is the Word ...

John 1:1, 14​

1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God​

14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have see His Glory, the Glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of Grace and Truth.​

​

Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” ...​

John 8:12​

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, He said, “I Am the Light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in darkness, but will have the Light of Life.”​

​

_________________________________​

​

More would be accomplised if we mediated on His Word and not so quick to debate theology