There is no Free Will PERIOD

[Panthers]

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well it states it right in the Westminster and Baptist Confession that I posted. Did you even read it and sought to understand what is was saying?

Yes I read it I quoted from it. How would I quote from it without reading it? If it contains any information that refutes what I said then why wouldn’t you highlight it? You mention Westminster as if they’re an authority on biblical interpretation. I just pointed out an error that should be obvious to anyone who can read and comprehend English. Their explanation is exactly the same as your explanation so when I pointed out the error in your interpretation you quoted Westminster saying the same exact thing. That’s not an explanation of why or how your interpretation correct, it’s merely quoting someone else who says the same thing. If God ordains sin then He is the source of sin because the word ordain means to order or decree which means He is the very origin of the sin. The sin did not originate from a different source. This is why your interpretation of foreknowledge doesn’t work. When you understand that God foreknew what would take place and caused everything to work together for the good to those who love Him then He is not the author of sin because the sin did not originate from Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No peace is ever found in choosing.
The Prince of Peace, thereby, has already decided.

There is no Free Will, PERIOD!

Can you explain these passages then?

Here God is making it absolutely clear that He has given the choice to us.

““See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”

‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here David had a choice.

““Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, “I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you.” ’ ””

‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭24‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬



“I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.””

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here God specifically says “I CALLED YOU BUT YOU DID NOT ANSWER”. I SPOKE BUT YOU DID NOT ANSWER, AND YOU DID EVIL IN MY SIGHT THAT IN WHICH I DID NOT DELIGHT”. How do explain this? God called them but didn’t allow them to answer? He spoke to them but didn’t let them hear? He ordained them to do evil that He did not want them to do? None of that would make any sense at all.

“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭7‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to God these people were committing human sacrifices that God absolutely DID NOT ORDAIN.

 

[com7fy8]

Job 42:2

And Isaiah 55:11 >

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
(Isaiah 55:11)

So, God guarantees that His word "shall accomplish" what He wants. Human free wills, then, have no choice about this, I can see.

It is like how Jesus spoke for the sea and air, so raging, to be still, and then there was such calm. The will of the air and water did not choose that, but God had His word accomplish that.
So, if God's word says "choose" something, He means how He through His word has the person choose >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So we are not puppets . . as much as God in His life of love is living and working in our wills to function His way.

He has us choosing better than we can get our own selves to understand and to choose. So, self needs to die, with self's human free will. Fallen man's human free will is in sin - - an old thing which is passed away, in Jesus >

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Corinthiams 5:17)

God's word, then, is now doing all that God Himself means by His word . . . not what limited humans are capable of understanding Him to mean and then choosing or refusing. Of course, humans might choose or refuse what *they* are capable of understanding God to mean.

But God Himself works in us what He knows He wants, what He means by His word - - - so better than we can understand Him to mean > there is always our discovering how He keeps bringing us to better than we thought we were going to do!!! As we grow in Jesus, we go to so more and better than we could know to choose.

If God works in us, He is producing what we choose, in Jesus. We choose, in sharing with Him, then, sharing in His will's freedom and how He creates in His loving.

 

[Clare73]

I think that people get wrapped around the axle on "free will".
God's Will - There is God's will which is perfect and unstained. Every decision God makes, He makes perfectly. So Christ, being tempted in the wilderness, had legitimate choices. He looked at those choices and, being led by God's Holy Spirit, always choose to do the right thing, every single time.
Free Will - Free will implies that, in ourselves and apart from any outside influences, we can make the right decision for God. Thus, technically, one could live a unstained life and live according to the law of God. We know this is impossible because no one does what is right. And nowhere in Scripture is free will ever mentioned.

Human Will - We, on the other hand, have what I call a human (not free) will to distinguish it from "free". This human will is rebellious towards the things of God because, like Adam, we just want to take that bite of the fruit. If God tells us not to put peas up our nose,

Too funny!

 

[Aaron112]

So, humans can not choose to cancel any of whatever God's word is sure to do.

In some translations that are as good as the others, it seems,

it is written that there are religious leaders , people ,
who "THWART" God's purpose for their lives
by rejecting Jesus or rejecting Jesus Instructions.
The results being they are not saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Job 42:2

In order to formulate a doctrine based on Job 42:2 you have to first determine what is meant by God’s purpose. We both agree that He will accomplish His purpose or plan, where we disagree is in what His plan is and how He chose to execute it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
(Isaiah 55:11)

If this meant what you think it does no one would sin. One thing that has been constant throughout the scriptures from the very first man to the very last is that man has repeatedly disobeyed God.

 

[Aaron112]

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
(Isaiah 55:11)

I Take Refuge in You
…The LORD judges the peoples; vindicate me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and integrity. 9Put an end to the evil of the wicked, but establish the righteous, O righteous God who searches hearts and minds. My shield is with God, who saves the upright in heart.…
Berean Standard Bible · Download

 

[Aaron112]

In order to formulate a doctrine based on Job 42:2 you have to first determine what is meant by God’s purpose. We both agree that He will accomplish His purpose or plan, where we disagree is in what His plan is and how He chose to execute it.

fwiw , many many many doctrines are "based on Scripture" (they(false ministers or priests of God) say), with no knowledge of God's Purpose nor God's Will, "not knowing the Power of God nor Scripture".

 

[HarleyER]

Yes I read it I quoted from it. How would I quote from it without reading it? If it contains any information that refutes what I said then why wouldn’t you highlight it? You mention Westminster as if they’re an authority on biblical interpretation. I just pointed out an error that should be obvious to anyone who can read and comprehend English. Their explanation is exactly the same as your explanation so when I pointed out the error in your interpretation you quoted Westminster saying the same exact thing. That’s not an explanation of why or how your interpretation correct, it’s merely quoting someone else who says the same thing. If God ordains sin then He is the source of sin because the word ordain means to order or decree which means He is the very origin of the sin. The sin did not originate from a different source. This is why your interpretation of foreknowledge doesn’t work. When you understand that God foreknew what would take place and caused everything to work together for the good to those who love Him then He is not the author of sin because the sin did not originate from Him.

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Baptist Confession of Faith were created by a body of godly men working independently and arriving at the same conclusion. So I would suggest that what you think might be errors in their logic is simply your missing the point of what they were expressing in the confessions. From the Westminster Confession Chapter 3

1. From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1

God has (ordained) set into motion every event that was to take place. (Christ came in the fullness of time Gal 4:4)​

​

1. Eph 1.11, Rom 11.33, Heb 6.17, Rom 9.15,18, Acts 4.27-28, Mt 10.29-30, Eph 2.10, Is 45.6-7.​

This ordainment does not mean, however, that God is the author of sin (he is not), that he represses the will of his created beings, or that he takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. 2

Since God laid everything out as how events would transpirer, this does not mean that God is the cause of bad things happening to people. Nor does it mean that He represses our will or somehow interfer with our lives to force us to do something we don't want to do. ​

​

2. Jas 1.13-14, 17, 1 Jn 1.5, Eccl 7.29, Ps 5.4.​

Rather, the will of created beings and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3

Instead by nature we do thing freely that results in what God has ordained, either through our own efforts or as the result of responding to circumstances around us.​

3. Acts 2.23, Mt 17.12, Acts 4.27-28, Jn 19.11, Prv 16.33, Acts 27.23-24, 34, 44.

No where did people ever think God was the origin of sin. It specifically says that He wasn't. God just set into motion all the events that would happen.

So if you come down with cancer, or someone close to you dies in a car crash, or the tower of Salome falls on top of you, it was part of God's plan for which we cannot even begin to understand or see the final outcome.

 

[com7fy8]

In some translations that are as good as the others, it seems,

it is written that there are religious leaders , people ,
who "THWART" God's purpose for their lives
by rejecting Jesus or rejecting Jesus Instructions.
The results being they are not saved.

I agree that God's word says there are ones who resist and interfere with God's word.

And I think of how Joseph's brothers took action to make sure Joseph's dreams did not come true > Genesis 37-50 > and their actions were used by God to make sure Joseph's dreams did come true.

And ones nailed the Messiah to the cross in order to stop His activity on this earth, and God has used that to result in so much more of Christ's activity on this earth.

So, yes ones thwart . . . "limitedly", in their own perception, while

"God resists the proud" (in 1 Peter 5:5 and in James 4:6).

His resistance is very effective, and He turns the thwarting to even help bring about His purpose.

 

[com7fy8]

If this meant what you think it does no one would sin. One thing that has been constant throughout the scriptures from the very first man to the very last is that man has repeatedly disobeyed God.

Yes, people sin.

God's word, accomplishing what He pleases, says that God forgives people. This is one of the things which God's word accomplishes and humans have not been able to thwart.

They tried to stop Jesus, but in fact set Him up to be our "propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (in 1 John 2:2)

There is sinning . . . in God's perfect management, then. This includes how Satan was cast to this earth "as lightning", Jesus says in Luke 10:18.

 

[Aaron112]

"God resists the proud" (in 1 Peter 5:5 and in James 4:6).

His resistance is very effective, and He turns the thwarting to even help bring about His purpose.

He needs no help to bring about His Purpose.
The wicked perish.
The ones who seek Jesus find Jesus.

 

[Panthers]

Can you explain these passages then?

Here God is making it absolutely clear that He has given the choice to us.

““See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”

‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here David had a choice.

““Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, “I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you.” ’ ””

‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭24‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬



“I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.””

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here God specifically says “I CALLED YOU BUT YOU DID NOT ANSWER”. I SPOKE BUT YOU DID NOT ANSWER, AND YOU DID EVIL IN MY SIGHT THAT IN WHICH I DID NOT DELIGHT”. How do explain this? God called them but didn’t allow them to answer? He spoke to them but didn’t let them hear? He ordained them to do evil that He did not want them to do? None of that would make any sense at all.

“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭7‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to God these people were committing human sacrifices that God absolutely DID NOT ORDAIN.

Do you not understand that the Book cannot be changed, therefore all those in the book had no choice?

What does Hebrews 13:8 mean to you?

Who do we emulate?

 

[Aaron112]

Do you not understand that the Book cannot be changed, therefore all those in the book had no choice?

In "the Book" is often stated and made clear that they choose/chose to do evil, or they choose/chose to live righteously.

Those who choose willingly to believe and to obey and to imitate Christ REJOICE ! though need be with much persecution today (even on forums).

 

[com7fy8]

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Baptist Confession of Faith were created by a body of godly men working independently and arriving at the same conclusion.

There has been so much discussion and comparison of doctrine. But how much is our attention dealing with how we compare with Jesus?

So I would suggest that what you think might be errors in their logic is simply your missing the point of what they were expressing in the confessions.

It is good to understand what someone means, so we can accurately represent what we are agreeing or disagreeing with. When our Apostle Paul disagreed with something, he would correctly represent what someone was saying, but then disagree > 1 Corinthians 15:13-19.

From the Westminster Confession Chapter 3

1. From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatever happens.1

My personal take is God has the spirit of evil to deal with >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

This spirit of evil is messy with nasty and negative anger and fear and lusts very filthing against love.

God's love is pure and pleasantly soul-soothing, gentle and quiet and humble, generously forgiving, all-loving, and caring and sharing as family.

So, God being orderly has developed vessels (Romans 9:21) for keeping Satanic stuff in vessels on their way to the flaming sewer. And evil is now being held here on earth while God redeems souls to be "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

God has (ordained) set into motion every event that was to take place. (Christ came in the fullness of time Gal 4:4)​

There is timing.

This ordainment does not mean, however, that God is the author of sin (he is not),​

I do not believe that God created the spirit of evil. The character of evil"s spirit is the author.

that he represses the will of his created beings,

God is the All-Worker > Ephesians 1:11, Romans 9:21 > managing the evil, including how

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6 and in 1 Peter 5:5).

So, He does resist evil-willed people.

or that he takes away the freedom or contingency of secondary causes. 2

Since God laid everything out as how events would transpirer, this does not mean that God is the cause of bad things happening to people. Nor does it mean that He represses our will or somehow interfer with our lives to force us to do something we don't want to do. ​

"God works in you both to will and to do" (in Philippians 2:14)

So, yes there is almighty power, which does not "force" us, but He gently and quietly transforms us into how His love lives in our character so we are submissive to Him and resting in how He guides us.

​

Rather, the will of created beings and the freedom and contingency of secondary causes are established by him.3​

He can manage how much things and people appear to control things, and how we perceive who and what is really in control.

Instead by nature we do thing freely that results in what God has ordained, either through our own efforts or as the result of responding to circumstances around us.​

For children of God >

"it is God who works in you, both to will . . . " (in Philippians 2:13).

So God is very personal and intimate in us, not forcing us in our limited human nature, but He shares with us His own freedom and ability to do what is good - - - in union with us > 1 Corinthians 6:17.

No where did people ever think God was the origin of sin. It specifically says that He wasn't. God just set into motion all the events that would happen.

Managing. . . timing . . .

So if you come down with cancer, or someone close to you dies in a car crash, or the tower of Salome falls on top of you, it was part of God's plan for which we cannot even begin to understand or see the final outcome.

This earth is now God's prisoner-of-war camp for Satan and his. Ones need to obey God in His grace so we are ready always to make His good use of whatever happens, even like how Jesus on the cross used that to do so much good.

 

[com7fy8]

He needs no help to bring about His Purpose.
The wicked perish.
The ones who seek Jesus find Jesus.

Yes, God needs no help, but He does include us in accomplishing His purpose which includes us being conformed to the image of Jesus.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok, but none of what you descibe makes me by certainty choose coffee. You can have all you describe and still choose tea. Your job is to prove that you have no power to choose what your inclination will be.

How do you get from what I say any idea about "no power to choose"? I'm insisting that we DO choose, but always according to our inclinations.

I won't argue about that, though I think it's an oversimplified or an incomplete picture.

There is way too much data to draw a complete picture. Why you choose coffee is a complex answer. I'd have to know all history (all chains of cause-and-effect as they relate to that choice at any one time) to come up with that. But that you always choose according to your inclinations is (to me) obvious.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I'm not the one who is saying God "regretted" or repented of His actions. You may want to look at the following verse:

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?​

Are you using the Bible to disprove the Bible? You know that it directly says God regretted or repented that He made man. In fact, there are other places in the ot that say God repented.

What you are abscribing to God is simply a projection of our humanist. God is not like us. I'll stand by with the nunerous commentators on what I stated.

God doesn't get "mad". God "ordains" simply means that God has set in a particular order all things. Thus, Christ came at exactly the right time (in the fullness of time).

So now you go with commentators who are applying the same principles to the interpretation of the OT that you just got done judging me for.

What is the difference between getting mad or getting angry? The OT says that God gets angry despite what your commentators say.

So if you are going to use the OT to describe God, you should use it all and not cherry pick out the parts that serve preconceived ideas.

Or you can reconsider what I said.