There is no Free Will PERIOD

[HarleyER]

Ok my point is that there is no evidence that suggests that God made Joseph choose to go to Nazareth. Just because it was prophesied doesn’t mean it was dictated. The prophecy could just been the result of God’s foreknowledge of where Joseph would decide to go.

Of course God ordained Joseph to go to Nazareth. And, my personal feeling is the reason God ordained it was simply because Nazareth had the stigma of being a backwards town, out in the middle of nowhere ("Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"). God took away the reproach of Nazareth by placing His Son there.

You again are confusing foreknowledge as God looking down some corridor of time and then making a prophecy about what He sees would happen (assuming Joseph makes the right choice). This is not what foreknowledge is. Foreknowledge is based upon God's eternal plan that embraces everything to come to pass. God has a plan that He has ordained. He tells us (partly) of His plans through His prophets. This confirms and reinforces His Word. It also gives us insight into the working of God in our lives.

 

[Mercy Shown]

The Judgement is not for Him, but is for us, so we can know the difference between good and bad, and so we will no longer question it after that.

But why? Has he not predestined everything? So no need for a judgement, we have no free will. He can simple predestined those He chose not to fry to never sin again. Of course He could have done that in the first place instead of torturing souls who had no choice but to be fodder for hell.

Since we have no choice or will to exercise in all this, this god is doing it for himself.

This anti-God doctrine comes from below. We are God’s ambassadores of His reconciliation through whom God makes His appeal.

Jesus desired that all Israel would come under His wings so who thwarted Jesus’ will?

 

[HarleyER]

But why? Has he not predestined everything? So no need for a judgement, we have no free will. He can simple predestined those He chose not to fry to never sin again. Of course He could have done that in the first place instead of torturing souls who had no choice but to be fodder for hell.

Since we have no choice or will to exercise in all this, this god is doing it for himself.

This anti-God doctrine comes from below. We are God’s ambassadores of His reconciliation through whom God makes His appeal.

Jesus desired that all Israel would come under His wings so who thwarted Jesus’ will?

"Since we have no choice or will to exercise in all this, this god is doing it for himself."

We do have a choice. It's that all of our choices are constant rebellion against God. Our hearts are bent towards doing evil.

God gave us the prophets (whom we killed) and His Son (whom we cruxcified). That should show you the type of people we are and the "free choices" that we make. It is ONLY by God's grace and mercy that He is willing to save any of us.

God is NOT putting up with all this nonsense for Himself. He is doing it because He want to us to share in the riches of His glory along with His Son. And every time we sin just confirms how forgiving and loving God is towards us.

So if you have "free will", don't sin. If your will is bent towards doing evil, ask God to forgive you for your weakness and help you overcome your sin. Those are your two "choices".

 

[Rose_bud]

There are many cases in Scripture where there are examples of this happening and where we are told this happens. The mission of Isaiah was to harden the people's heart. But prophesy often have multiple reoccurances in Scripture. Jesus spoke to people in parables so that they wouldn't understand.

There are plenty of passages in the Old and New Testament as well as the teaching of the church that says otherwise. Jesus spoke in parables so that people would not understand. Isaiah's mission was to blind the people of Israel so that they would be sent into captivity. Isaiah asked, "How long" and God told him until everything is destroyed. (Isaiah 6).

But you've got to start in the beginning of Israels journey. The story of the Israelites rebellion and hardness of heart towards God is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament. Despite witnessing God's mighty works, wonders, and signs, they repeatedly rejected His authority and refused to obey His commands.

Deuteronomy 9:6-7
You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your ancestors did, so do you.

This was a culmination of the Israelites' consistent disobedience and rebellion against God, despite His repeated attempts to guide and instruct them.
Remember what happened in Exodus with the Golden calf, the rebellion of Korah, the refusal to enter Canaan, save Joshua and Caleb and and and...

The Israelites hardness of heart was not caused by God, but rather by their own refusal to acknowledge and submit to His authority as God. By rejecting the evidence of God's power and love, they defaulted to their own sinful nature, leading to a cycle of rebellion and disobedience.

As you mentioned, "prophesy often have multiple reoccurances in Scripture" the prophets drew upon this history to call the people back to repentance and obedience.

God used the Israelites' hardness of heart to fulfill His purposes and plan of redemption for all humanity, ultimately leading to the coming of Jesus Christ. Who gives us a new heart when we believe the evidence of his Divinity... of which His death and ressurrection is the climax... so we yield to Him.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Let's look at Isaiah 6.
The book of Isaiah contains prophecies about how the Babylonians would capture and destroy Jerusalem, which were a near fulfillment of God's judgment. The exile was a form of judgment, where God allowed His people to be taken captive and to be removed from the land due to their disobedience.

Remember "the land will vomit you out" (Leviticus 18:28, 20:22) Its a telling reminder of the consequences of disobedience. The land, which was a symbol of God's blessing and presence and promise, would reject the people due to their sin.

The blessings and curses in Deuteronomy 28-30 serve as the backdrop for understanding the consequences of obedience and disobedience. The people were presented with a choice: life or death, blessing or curse. Their disobedience led to the curses being fulfilled, including exile and judgment. See also how this happened in Judges... God is holy and will not be mocked..

But Isaiah's prophecies also point to a greater truth...God's judgment for disobedience and rejection, which is a theme of the entire Bible. The near fulfillment in Isaiah's time also serves as a warning and precursor to the ultimate judgment, which will be fulfilled in the end.

As for the "How long, O Lord?". What is the context here. When Isaiah encountered the Holy God in the throne room, he responded with a deep sense of humility and recognition of his own sinfulness.

Isaiah 6:5
"Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts"

What does God do for Isaiah? He forgiveness and cleanses.

Isaiah 6:6-7
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

This was supposed to be Israel's response. So this serves as a paradigm, highlighting the need for humility, repentance, and recognition of God's holiness in order to receive forgiveness and restoration. They were supposed to know God but yet they did not have the appropriate response.

So Isaiahs response becomes a stark contrast to his brothers and sisters, who God judges by hardening their already hard hearts.
The judgment of blindness and hardness of heart is a result of Israel's failure to recognize God's holiness and repent of their sins.

The How long, O Lord?" question becomes both a call to repentance, urging Israel to turn back to God and acknowledge His holiness, just as Isaiah did. But also a cry for relief, pleading that although God is just in this verdict, that God limit His judgment. But we know God is merciful and long suffering, who gives them opportunity after opportunity to repent as heard through the voice of his prophets.

Isaiah 6:11-13
Then I said, 'For how long, O Lord?' And He answered: 'Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, the houses are without a man, the land is utterly desolate, the Lord has removed men far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.'"

How long... until the land is desolate, and the people are removed. History is a witness.

So this judgement came upon those in Isaiah time, and upon those who had the Holy God walking in their midst and who had the evidence of his signs, wonders and might works yet....


When Jesus says he will speak in parables it can be seen as a continuation of this theme. By teaching about the kingdom in parables, Jesus was able to conceal the truth from those who had already rejected Him (they had the many evidence of his works, signs and wonders), while revealing it to those with a willing heart. So in the rejection the prophecy was being fulfilled.

Paul further quotes from this prophecy in Acts 28, where he comes to his own in Rome in chains.

Acts 28:23
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

“ ‘Go to this people and say, ...Acts 28:26-27, Isaiah 6:9-10

Acts 28:28
“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” Romans 11:25

This is why we preach the gospel message to all, in word, deed and sign, because we have the Truth... with the examples from Israels history ..of God's love, patience and forbearance. His desire to reveal who He is so we may live.

I only have time to respond to this post. I'll get back to your other posts at a later stage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Of course God ordained Joseph to go to Nazareth. And, my personal feeling is the reason God ordained it was simply because Nazareth had the stigma of being a backwards town, out in the middle of nowhere ("Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"). God took away the reproach of Nazareth by placing His Son there.

You again are confusing foreknowledge as God looking down some corridor of time and then making a prophecy about what He sees would happen (assuming Joseph makes the right choice). This is not what foreknowledge is. Foreknowledge is based upon God's eternal plan that embraces everything to come to pass. God has a plan that He has ordained. He tells us (partly) of His plans through His prophets. This confirms and reinforces His Word. It also gives us insight into the working of God in our lives.

You still don’t understand that God exists in all time simultaneously. He doesn’t have to look forward or backwards in time. From God’s perspective it’s just knowledge. The term foreknowledge is a description from our perspective according to our current point in time.

 

[viafire]

Freewill is always a tough one, it's defining freewill that causes confusion. Freewill is not whether or not God knows you're going to choose right or wrong, freewill is that God knows you're going to choose wrong and He lets you do it anyway.
Freewill is a necessity to accomplish the very reason of why we were created. We were created in God's image so we reflect certain characteristics of Him, one of these is desire. God created us because He has a desire that He wants fulfilled. That desire is the first law, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. In order to accomplish that, we need freewill. It's why we're called children of God and not slaves of God nor robots of God because a child chooses to love which is the most powerful thing.
However, it is a double-edged sword. It's why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, it gave Adam and Eve choice; the ability to choose NOT to do what God wants. Without choice there is no freewill. What we have to understand is that God is always in control, but we get to choose whether or not we are in His plan. If Noah hadn't chosen to be a good man (Gen 6:9) then God would have waited until the right one came along. If Abraham had chosen to be evil, then God would've fulfilled His promise through someone else. Almost every example of God's judgment on the evil is precursored with an opportunity to choose to change.
We also know that God knows our hearts, he even knows the number of hairs on our heads. I don't even know how many hairs I have so that means God knows me better then I know myself. Satan didn't choose Job, God did because God already knew what kind of man he was. We know Job chose to be a God-fearing man in Job 1:1 so in reality, God suckered Satan into a bad bet. We know Joseph was a good man because he recognized it was God who led him to be the second most powerful man in the world in Gen 50:19.
People always ask, "How can God allow bad things to happen?". The answer is fairly simple: it's because God has to allow freewill and a lot of people choose wrong. But, we get to see how God works, consider the following.
2700 years ago, God sent Amos to deliver a message to the nation of Israel: stop doing what's wrong, start doing what's right or face God's judgment. After a while, God told Amos these people won't change so He showed him 3 things (Amos 7:1-9): a plague, a wildfire, and a sword. God decided he was going to use a sword. Around this same time, he sent Jonah to another country (Ninevah) with the same message. The Ninevites heeded the warning, changed their ways, and God made them the greatest superpower the world had ever seen up to that point- the Assyrians. The Assyrians were the sword that wiped Israel off the face of the earth never to return. About 150 years later, the Assyrians returned to their old ways and became evil. So, Habakkuk prays to God to spare them from their misery the Assyrians are inflicting and God tells him He's doing something he wouldn't believe even if He showed him. He's raising up a vile, backwater tribal people who lived way out in the marshes that no one thought about to be the sword that removes the Ninevites known as the Chaldeans; who would become the Babylonian Empire.
So what's the point of this? The point is God won't take away your freewill because it will defeated the purpose of why He created you. However, it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a whole toolbox full of tools that He can use to keep humanity on the right path. Those tools include: plagues, diseases, viruses, natural disasters, earthquakes, wildfires, volcanoes and.... governments. What Amos, Jonah, and Habakkuk prove to us is that God keeps using a tool as long as it keeps working, but once that tool breaks and quits doing it's job, he rips it out and replaces it with a new one.
The common denominator in the tools he uses (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc) is that most of the time these tools don't even believe in God, but He still uses them. Why? Because the one vital lesson we learned from the flood that wiped out humanity save 8 is that without God's guidance, humanity will fail. So the question is, are you going to choose to fulfill your reason for being here or not?

 

[Panthers]

Good question. I doubt if we'll recall our past failings but we will certainly be humbled in seeing His excellent glory.

His glory is absolutely mind blowing, out of this world, heavenly, supreme, and most ultimate.
(all to say for lack of a better words)

Forgiveness unbinds our debt to past shadows.
It brings us closer to the moment called NOW.
For today is paradise for those who serve him.
Luke 23:43

 

[Panthers]

Freewill is always a tough one, it's defining freewill that causes confusion. Freewill is not whether or not God knows you're going to choose right or wrong, freewill is that God knows you're going to choose wrong and He lets you do it anyway.
Freewill is a necessity to accomplish the very reason of why we were created. We were created in God's image so we reflect certain characteristics of Him, one of these is desire. God created us because He has a desire that He wants fulfilled. That desire is the first law, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. In order to accomplish that, we need freewill. It's why we're called children of God and not slaves of God nor robots of God because a child chooses to love which is the most powerful thing.
However, it is a double-edged sword. It's why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, it gave Adam and Eve choice; the ability to choose NOT to do what God wants. Without choice there is no freewill. What we have to understand is that God is always in control, but we get to choose whether or not we are in His plan. If Noah hadn't chosen to be a good man (Gen 6:9) then God would have waited until the right one came along. If Abraham had chosen to be evil, then God would've fulfilled His promise through someone else. Almost every example of God's judgment on the evil is precursored with an opportunity to choose to change.
We also know that God knows our hearts, he even knows the number of hairs on our heads. I don't even know how many hairs I have so that means God knows me better then I know myself. Satan didn't choose Job, God did because God already knew what kind of man he was. We know Job chose to be a God-fearing man in Job 1:1 so in reality, God suckered Satan into a bad bet. We know Joseph was a good man because he recognized it was God who led him to be the second most powerful man in the world in Gen 50:19.
People always ask, "How can God allow bad things to happen?". The answer is fairly simple: it's because God has to allow freewill and a lot of people choose wrong. But, we get to see how God works, consider the following.
2700 years ago, God sent Amos to deliver a message to the nation of Israel: stop doing what's wrong, start doing what's right or face God's judgment. After a while, God told Amos these people won't change so He showed him 3 things (Amos 7:1-9): a plague, a wildfire, and a sword. God decided he was going to use a sword. Around this same time, he sent Jonah to another country (Ninevah) with the same message. The Ninevites heeded the warning, changed their ways, and God made them the greatest superpower the world had ever seen up to that point- the Assyrians. The Assyrians were the sword that wiped Israel off the face of the earth never to return. About 150 years later, the Assyrians returned to their old ways and became evil. So, Habakkuk prays to God to spare them from their misery the Assyrians are inflicting and God tells him He's doing something he wouldn't believe even if He showed him. He's raising up a vile, backwater tribal people who lived way out in the marshes that no one thought about to be the sword that removes the Ninevites known as the Chaldeans; who would become the Babylonian Empire.
So what's the point of this? The point is God won't take away your freewill because it will defeated the purpose of why He created you. However, it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a whole toolbox full of tools that He can use to keep humanity on the right path. Those tools include: plagues, diseases, viruses, natural disasters, earthquakes, wildfires, volcanoes and.... governments. What Amos, Jonah, and Habakkuk prove to us is that God keeps using a tool as long as it keeps working, but once that tool breaks and quits doing it's job, he rips it out and replaces it with a new one.
The common denominator in the tools he uses (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc) is that most of the time these tools don't even believe in God, but He still uses them. Why? Because the one vital lesson we learned from the flood that wiped out humanity save 8 is that without God's guidance, humanity will fail. So the question is, are you going to choose to fulfill your reason for being here or not?

The Bible is the Rock of Ages,
In God's Tumbler, it touches everyone.
One cannot be affected in some way.
Especially when the Western world is founded upon Christian/Judea values.

These are all past happenings.
All which have been provided for your witnessing,
not your choosing.
No one mentioned in the Bible can change what they did in the Bible,
since the Bible cannot be changed, and is Holy; all those mentioned in the Bible, had no choice.

Hence, all were forgiven.

 

[viafire]

Actually the western world is based on stoicism, the same people Paul debated with in Athens. If it was based on Christian values then we would be a theocracy with no first amendment. Stoicism is the step brother to hedonism. Basically hedonism says, if it feels good then it is good. Stoics believed, if it feels good then it is good as long as you don't hurt anyone else. Mal 3:6 tells us God does not change neither do His ways, so the US of A is only here because God wants it here. Then that means all those hedonistic people out there are saved. If that's true, then why did Christ get crucified?

 

[HarleyER]

But you've got to start in the beginning of Israels journey. The story of the Israelites rebellion and hardness of heart towards God is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament. Despite witnessing God's mighty works, wonders, and signs, they repeatedly rejected His authority and refused to obey His commands.

Deuteronomy 9:6-7
You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your ancestors did, so do you.

This was a culmination of the Israelites' consistent disobedience and rebellion against God, despite His repeated attempts to guide and instruct them.
Remember what happened in Exodus with the Golden calf, the rebellion of Korah, the refusal to enter Canaan, save Joshua and Caleb and and and...

The Israelites hardness of heart was not caused by God, but rather by their own refusal to acknowledge and submit to His authority as God. By rejecting the evidence of God's power and love, they defaulted to their own sinful nature, leading to a cycle of rebellion and disobedience.

As you mentioned, "prophesy often have multiple reoccurances in Scripture" the prophets drew upon this history to call the people back to repentance and obedience.

God used the Israelites' hardness of heart to fulfill His purposes and plan of redemption for all humanity, ultimately leading to the coming of Jesus Christ. Who gives us a new heart when we believe the evidence of his Divinity... of which His death and ressurrection is the climax... so we yield to Him.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Let's look at Isaiah 6.
The book of Isaiah contains prophecies about how the Babylonians would capture and destroy Jerusalem, which were a near fulfillment of God's judgment. The exile was a form of judgment, where God allowed His people to be taken captive and to be removed from the land due to their disobedience.

Remember "the land will vomit you out" (Leviticus 18:28, 20:22) Its a telling reminder of the consequences of disobedience. The land, which was a symbol of God's blessing and presence and promise, would reject the people due to their sin.

The blessings and curses in Deuteronomy 28-30 serve as the backdrop for understanding the consequences of obedience and disobedience. The people were presented with a choice: life or death, blessing or curse. Their disobedience led to the curses being fulfilled, including exile and judgment. See also how this happened in Judges... God is holy and will not be mocked..

But Isaiah's prophecies also point to a greater truth...God's judgment for disobedience and rejection, which is a theme of the entire Bible. The near fulfillment in Isaiah's time also serves as a warning and precursor to the ultimate judgment, which will be fulfilled in the end.

As for the "How long, O Lord?". What is the context here. When Isaiah encountered the Holy God in the throne room, he responded with a deep sense of humility and recognition of his own sinfulness.

Isaiah 6:5
"Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts"

What does God do for Isaiah? He forgiveness and cleanses.

Isaiah 6:6-7
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

This was supposed to be Israel's response. So this serves as a paradigm, highlighting the need for humility, repentance, and recognition of God's holiness in order to receive forgiveness and restoration. They were supposed to know God but yet they did not have the appropriate response.

So Isaiahs response becomes a stark contrast to his brothers and sisters, who God judges by hardening their already hard hearts.
The judgment of blindness and hardness of heart is a result of Israel's failure to recognize God's holiness and repent of their sins.

The How long, O Lord?" question becomes both a call to repentance, urging Israel to turn back to God and acknowledge His holiness, just as Isaiah did. But also a cry for relief, pleading that although God is just in this verdict, that God limit His judgment. But we know God is merciful and long suffering, who gives them opportunity after opportunity to repent as heard through the voice of his prophets.

Isaiah 6:11-13
Then I said, 'For how long, O Lord?' And He answered: 'Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, the houses are without a man, the land is utterly desolate, the Lord has removed men far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.'"

How long... until the land is desolate, and the people are removed. History is a witness.

So this judgement came upon those in Isaiah time, and upon those who had the Holy God walking in their midst and who had the evidence of his signs, wonders and might works yet....


When Jesus says he will speak in parables it can be seen as a continuation of this theme. By teaching about the kingdom in parables, Jesus was able to conceal the truth from those who had already rejected Him (they had the many evidence of his works, signs and wonders), while revealing it to those with a willing heart. So in the rejection the prophecy was being fulfilled.

Paul further quotes from this prophecy in Acts 28, where he comes to his own in Rome in chains.

Acts 28:23
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

“ ‘Go to this people and say, ...Acts 28:26-27, Isaiah 6:9-10

Acts 28:28
“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” Romans 11:25

This is why we preach the gospel message to all, in word, deed and sign, because we have the Truth... with the examples from Israels history ..of God's love, patience and forbearance. His desire to reveal who He is so we may live.

I only have time to respond to this post. I'll get back to your other posts at a later stage.

"But you've got to start in the beginning of Israels journey. The story of the Israelites rebellion and hardness of heart towards God is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament...The Israelites hardness of heart was not caused by God, but rather by their own refusal to acknowledge and submit to His authority as God.."

Exactly. But don't fault Israel's rebelion. This is one of the examples that we are to learn from the Old Testament. The story of the Israelites is no different from any other people. We are all rebellious. This is the nature of our condition. Total depravity doesn't mean that we're really nasty people. It means that we're rebellious towards doing the things of God, things that are for our and others' benefit. Paul tells us in Romans that the Gentiles fail without the law even though God is plain to them. The Jews fail with the law because they can't keep the commandments. The law is good simply because it shows us our failings. We need the grace and mercy of God.

Ephesian 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​

 

[HarleyER]

You still don’t understand that God exists in all time simultaneously. He doesn’t have to look forward or backwards in time. From God’s perspective it’s just knowledge. The term foreknowledge is a description from our perspective according to our current point in time.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Foreknown is not a description to help us better understand things. This verse gives a time stamp. In 1 Peter God foreknew what He was going to do before the foundation of the world. So before anything was created, God ordained what would take place.

 

[Mercy Shown]

"Since we have no choice or will to exercise in all this, this god is doing it for himself."

We do have a choice. It's that all of our choices are constant rebellion against God. Our hearts are bent towards doing evil.

God gave us the prophets (whom we killed) and His Son (whom we cruxcified). That should show you the type of people we are and the "free choices" that we make. It is ONLY by God's grace and mercy that He is willing to save any of us.

God is NOT putting up with all this nonsense for Himself. He is doing it because He want to us to share in the riches of His glory along with His Son. And every time we sin just confirms how forgiving and loving God is towards us.

So if you have "free will", don't sin. If your will is bent towards doing evil, ask God to forgive you for your weakness and help you overcome your sin. Those are your two "choices".

If your will is bent towards doing evil, ask God to forgive you for your weakness and help you overcome your sin. Those are your two "choices".

You put choices in quotes? Why? To ask God to forgive me is a free-will choice. Asking God to help me overcome my sins is a free-will choice. Since you say, "Help me," you indicate that I have to overcome my sins and that God helps. Everything you wrote here supports free will.

People will react to what I say as if they know what I believe, but they don't. What I object to is extreme Calvinism, which says that God planned all of the evil that will ever happen. He predestined it and that He created sinners to burn in hell for all eternity, along with saints who will enjoy an eternity of bliss, but neither did a thing to deserve what they got. If a child is raped and killed, God predestined it. This is not a God of love.

Was the free gift of eternal life a gift for the world? Did God not so love the world that He gave His only Begotten Son? Does not God make His appeal through us to the world???

 

[Panthers]

Actually the western world is based on stoicism, the same people Paul debated with in Athens. If it was based on Christian values then we would be a theocracy with no first amendment. Stoicism is the step brother to hedonism. Basically hedonism says, if it feels good then it is good. Stoics believed, if it feels good then it is good as long as you don't hurt anyone else. Mal 3:6 tells us God does not change neither do His ways, so the US of A is only here because God wants it here. Then that means all those hedonistic people out there are saved. If that's true, then why did Christ get crucified?

Marriage is based on Christianity.
For over 100 years, marriage was held most sacred in this land.

 

[Rose_bud]

"But you've got to start in the beginning of Israels journey. The story of the Israelites rebellion and hardness of heart towards God is a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament...The Israelites hardness of heart was not caused by God, but rather by their own refusal to acknowledge and submit to His authority as God.."

Exactly. But don't fault Israel's rebelion. This is one of the examples that we are to learn from the Old Testament. The story of the Israelites is no different from any other people. We are all rebellious. This is the nature of our condition. Total depravity doesn't mean that we're really nasty people. It means that we're rebellious towards doing the things of God, things that are for our and others' benefit. Paul tells us in Romans that the Gentiles fail without the law even though God is plain to them. The Jews fail with the law because they can't keep the commandments. The law is good simply because it shows us our failings. We need the grace and mercy of God.

Ephesian 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​

To clarify, my previous response was not arguing for or against total depravity. Rather, I was emphasizing that the hardness of heart of the Israelites was not caused by God, as you previously suggested. Instead, it was a result of their own choices and refusal to acknowledge and submit to God's authority.

Although we can discuss total depravity, let's first ensure we understand this point correctly before moving on to other topics.

 

[Rose_bud]

It is God great love for us that He desires for all to be saved. However, you have to counter balance this that men love the darkness more than they love God. They do not want to come to the truth. (John 3:19-20). So if you have a very loving God who wants to have fellowship with us, and we are rebellious against wanting that fellowship, the only alternative God has is to change our hearts. The real question is why doesn't God change everyone's heart. This is where the mystery lies.

Exactly God does not harden people's hearts or force them to reject Him. Instead, He allows them to choose their own path, even if it leads to rebellion against Him. It is not a mystery. See Romans 1:24-33 where he gives people over to their sinful desires as a form of judgment, rather than actively causing their hardness of heart.

By not coercing people's choices, God respects human freedom, allowing us to love and follow Him willingly. As we yield to Him, he empowers us to live our lives for Him. This also means that individuals are responsible for their own decisions and actions.

Exactly, but the heart condition isn't unknown to us. It is rebellious against the things of God (Psalms 53:1). This changing of the heart's condition is the work of the Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement.

You are responding to my post avoiding its context. In a situation of speaking to people about God, which we can parallel with this occurrence in Scripture Acts17, we don't know if we are planting, watering or how far along they are in understanding the message of truth, hence the condition of the heart is unknown to us. We therefore faithfully and obediently rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and lead.

There is no "Calvinist" interpretation. You have to read the verse as it is written and put away your paradigm. What does it say? People who where appointed to eternal life were saved.

I prefer to approach Scripture without a predetermined theological framework, allowing the text to speak for itself. Rather than building doctrine on a single verse, I prioritize reading the surrounding and broader context to gain understanding of the passage. This approach helps me to avoid imposing my own interpretations and instead uncover the original meaning intended by the author. If it aligns with a certain theological school of thought then so be it. If it contradicts that thought, so be it.

This isn't what the text states. The Jews rejected the message. Paul shook the dust off his feet and told the Jews they were unworthy of his time and attention. It is precisely the graphing in of Gentiles to the tree of faith in Romans 9-11. Gentiles are grafted into the family of God. We are adopted into the family of Abraham. The Jew, on the other hand, have a hardening upon them. They (for the most part) cannot hear the gospel until such a time as God determines. But Gentiles should not boast about this as we too might face the same situation. Romans 9-11 illustrates that God is the director of our salvation. Romans 9-11, btw, is an excellent illustration that God hardens some hearts not to hear the gospel. God doesn't "actively draw" every person. There are times when God hardens a person's heart.

Now we appear to be saying the same thing. Previously, you took Acts 13:48, ignored it's context and used it to justify that God selects an elite person/s who He has appointed to believe, so they may have eternal life. All in support of a Calvinistic view of predestination. However, I was highlighting that this interpretation neglects the surrounding context, which actually emphasizes the corporate inclusion of Gentiles in God's overall plan of redemption. I'm glad we see the real meaning.

We can surely discuss Romans and what Paul is arguing, which is not that God is the cause of hard hearts

I'm not suggesting Christ dead on the cross was insufficient for everyone. I'm suggesting that Christ died ONLY for those who believe in Him. There were people Christ told that their sin will remain with them. (John 9:41) So, yes, atonement is limited to only those who believe. Without the blood of Christ, there is no remission of sin.

Available to all, yet contingent on our surrender. Through His sacrifice, Christ has made salvation available to ALL humanity. However, only those who surrender to God's Truth will receive eternal life. Every person has an innate understanding of God's existence, leaving us accountable to respond to this knowledge. Yet, the full revelation of who God is, His nature and character exemplified in Christ is now given to us to share with all we can. Therefore we have the privilege and responsibility of being bearers of this wonderful news. A message to which we are not ashamed as it holds the power to transform lives for all who believe.

 

[Rose_bud]

Thanks!

Because sinners cannot find it in their own hearts to be reconciled to one who so frequently offended them, they are ready to fear God will not be reconciled to them. We think if God forgives once, he will not forgive again. But Jesus said 70 X 7 times. His ways are higher than our ways.

Do you think it does not correspond to the other verses in post #220?

I haven't gone into the other scriptures because you indicated that the post @Strong In Him made that her premise is... that man is the measure of goodness and justice.

But that was not her premise, rather it was along the thoughts of that God is just, merciful and on the side of justice.

You seemed to the conclude then, that since God is all the above, therefore she is saying man must be the measure of goodness and justice and supported it with Isaiah 55... His ways are higher than our ways... which is an illogical jump and not related to the above, but rather that God is faithful to keep His promises.

 

[zoidar]

Different POV, I guess. Oh well. I'll try.

While in Genesis 6.5 it is talking about pre-flood humanity, "...every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time", I think it is no different today. We know from Romans and many other places you and I are familiar with, that natural man is at enmity with God. This is a continual state, and if interrupted by good deeds, they are still only because of God's causation—while the mind chose that good deed, the heart was still at enmity and sought only what it wanted, even if only for that instant of decision. Man bends toward enmity. And the judgement of the deeds is by God looking at the heart. WE see a good deed, but GOD sees enmity. And it is only IN CHRIST that this inclination is changed.

Each choice is specific, whether one is in Christ or at enmity with God. But what we are inclined to do, whether it is the best possible decision, such as we see in supposedly altruistic acts of the unsaved, or whether it is the smallest obedience (submission as a mindset, not mere momentary compliance) to God in the redeemed, is what makes that decision.

According to Romans 8 the mind of flesh is unable to please God, and I believe that is because God looks on the heart.

Take, for example, the false conversions that occur every day. A person regrets their lifestyle or fears events to come or for sudden emotional desire for what they conceive to be God, or for whatever reason, think themselves to commit to Christ, to yield themselves to God, to "accept him into their heart", or however you want to describe this "decision for Christ". Yet it "didn't take".

The question is not what name you put to the decision they made or the deed they did, but rather, "What does God see?"

What I like to know is not whether one can choose Christ or not by free will, but what this inclination is that made me choose to start this day with a glass of water, instead of coffee which I normally do. Even if an evil person only chooses evil, can he not by free will choose the kind of evil? How is the inclination making him choose this specific act of evil rather than another? That's the question.

Is every choice decreed/scripted? How can we prove that without going to the Bible? And in that case how does this scripting work? I was inclined to drink water, yes, but why did I actually choose it? Because of my inclination? Then what is this inclination, a thought, a feeling, a desire or what?

 

[HarleyER]

If your will is bent towards doing evil, ask God to forgive you for your weakness and help you overcome your sin. Those are your two "choices".

You put choices in quotes? Why? To ask God to forgive me is a free-will choice. Asking God to help me overcome my sins is a free-will choice. Since you say, "Help me," you indicate that I have to overcome my sins and that God helps. Everything you wrote here supports free will.

People will react to what I say as if they know what I believe, but they don't. What I object to is extreme Calvinism, which says that God planned all of the evil that will ever happen. He predestined it and that He created sinners to burn in hell for all eternity, along with saints who will enjoy an eternity of bliss, but neither did a thing to deserve what they got. If a child is raped and killed, God predestined it. This is not a God of love.

Was the free gift of eternal life a gift for the world? Did God not so love the world that He gave His only Begotten Son? Does not God make His appeal through us to the world???

People are DEAD (upper case) in sin. You can't even repent unless God grants it to you (2 Tim 2:25).

Calvinism doesn't say that God planned all of the evil that will ever happen. There might be some very extreme forms of this but I've never come across it in all my readings. What it does say is that man and Satan are the perpetrators of evil. God restrains this evil or uses it for His purposes to bring about good. But God is not the author of evil.

If a child is raped and killed, then there is a purpose to it that we in our limited understanding cannot see. But don't blame God for what we cannot comprehend. We cruxcified His only Son, remember? And this was ordained by God the Father.

The free gift of eternal life is a gift for the world. But look around you. How many want that free gift? Go up to your Uncle Bob and ask him if he wants this free gift and see what his response will be. Unless the Holy Spirit convict your Uncle Bob of his sin, he will never come to Christ.

 

[HarleyER]

To clarify, my previous response was not arguing for or against total depravity. Rather, I was emphasizing that the hardness of heart of the Israelites was not caused by God, as you previously suggested. Instead, it was a result of their own choices and refusal to acknowledge and submit to God's authority.

Although we can discuss total depravity, let's first ensure we understand this point correctly before moving on to other topics.

Perhaps I wasn't being very clear. I would agree that the hardness of the heart is not caused by God. It is our nature, our essence if you will, to be rebellious towards the things of God. It is not just limited to the Israelites, but it is the nature of man. No sooner had they walked out of the ark after the flood, than all the people started to build the tower of Babel. This is the way we all are-rebellious.

God must give us a new heart and spirit BEFORE we ask so that we will walk in His statutes. He must change our nature. Until He does, we will always be rebellious towards Him.

 

[HarleyER]

Exactly God does not harden people's hearts or force them to reject Him. Instead, He allows them to choose their own path, even if it leads to rebellion against Him. It is not a mystery. See Romans 1:24-33 where he gives people over to their sinful desires as a form of judgment, rather than actively causing their hardness of heart.

By not coercing people's choices, God respects human freedom, allowing us to love and follow Him willingly. As we yield to Him, he empowers us to live our lives for Him. This also means that individuals are responsible for their own decisions and actions.

You are responding to my post avoiding its context. In a situation of speaking to people about God, which we can parallel with this occurrence in Scripture Acts17, we don't know if we are planting, watering or how far along they are in understanding the message of truth, hence the condition of the heart is unknown to us. We therefore faithfully and obediently rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and lead.

I prefer to approach Scripture without a predetermined theological framework, allowing the text to speak for itself. Rather than building doctrine on a single verse, I prioritize reading the surrounding and broader context to gain understanding of the passage. This approach helps me to avoid imposing my own interpretations and instead uncover the original meaning intended by the author. If it aligns with a certain theological school of thought then so be it. If it contradicts that thought, so be it.

Now we appear to be saying the same thing. Previously, you took Acts 13:48, ignored it's context and used it to justify that God selects an elite person/s who He has appointed to believe, so they may have eternal life. All in support of a Calvinistic view of predestination. However, I was highlighting that this interpretation neglects the surrounding context, which actually emphasizes the corporate inclusion of Gentiles in God's overall plan of redemption. I'm glad we see the real meaning.

We can surely discuss Romans and what Paul is arguing, which is not that God is the cause of hard hearts

Available to all, yet contingent on our surrender. Through His sacrifice, Christ has made salvation available to ALL humanity. However, only those who surrender to God's Truth will receive eternal life. Every person has an innate understanding of God's existence, leaving us accountable to respond to this knowledge. Yet, the full revelation of who God is, His nature and character exemplified in Christ is now given to us to share with all we can. Therefore we have the privilege and responsibility of being bearers of this wonderful news. A message to which we are not ashamed as it holds the power to transform lives for all who believe.

"I prefer to approach Scripture without a predetermined theological framework, allowing the text to speak for itself."

I wasn't a "Calvinist" until someone challenged me on the very topic of God's sovereignty. I did not have a predetermined theological framework. All I wanted to know was what was the right view of God, monergism or synergism? I happened to think this is very important. That simple question caused me to spend over two years rereading the Bible from a monergism view (I was a synergist before), looking through church and secular history, reading through the early writings of the church, and studying creeds and councils. And here's a secret-I haven't even finished reading Calvin.

But if I may share a brief personal testimony, I always had an issue with "free will" besides it not mentioned in the Bible. The reason being is that I never made an outward choice to follow God. I thought I was a pretty good person and many confirmed that around me. I believed the church was filled with hypocrites. There was no message. No sermon. No walking down the aisle. One day I just realized that I was the hypocrite simply by looking at my own heart. Despite how well I may look on the outside, I am only beginning to understand the depths of my depravity on the inside. The scales fell off my eyes. So my conversion, if I was honest, never lined up to this "making a choice for God". It wasn't until 30+ years later that I understood my conversion was monergistic. It was because God turned me around. And I suspect, if I read your testimony, you would probably be telling me you were going in this direction, BUT GOD turned you around as well.

It wasn't hard for me to read the Scriptures from the monergistic viewpoint of how we are all evil and bound in sin. I know from firsthand.

So I would suggest that you are predisposed to a particular theological framework unless you have objectively studied church history and doctrine. I had a Sunday School teacher who would always skip over any verse that had to do with "predestined" or "elect", simply because he couldn't explain it. While you want to go back in Acts, that verse in Acts 13:48 is a sticking point and is best to be ignored or "..we need the whole counsel of God" which is simply another way of ignoring the text. It reminds me of my Sunday School teacher who wanted to say, "Yes, but..."

Here is another secret. You will never be able to fully understand the Gospel of John, the Book of Romans, and much of the Old Testament without the understanding that it is God who chooses people. He chosed the nation of Israel. He chosed Moses. He chosed Judah. He chosed David. He chosed Samuel. He chosed Matthew. He chosed Paul. On and on and on.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you." (John 15:16) Seems pretty straight forward.