There is no Free Will PERIOD

[rturner76]

Can't, and won't, or don't want to, are very, very different things.

Well, you both won't and you can't. God has given us free will, we are not preprogrammed as the Bible indicates.

.

 

[zoidar]

Hey, brother! Good to see you again!

Not sure what you mean by "highest preferred choice". Sounds like a bit of unnecessary and imprecise attachments or hidden implications to the simple idea of 'preference' or 'inclination'. We always choose according to what we prefer, even if that preference is only at that instant of making that choice.

Maybe you mean to ask whether our choices cause what is preordained to come to pass. Yes, they do. They play a part in the logical 'chains of causation'.

Hi Mark! Good to see you.

I still don't understand what it means that we are inclined to make a specific choice and therefore we make that choice. I don't see there is any proof of such an inclination. Maybe you can explain that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can't, and won't, or don't want to, are very, very different things.

Don’t you mean can’t want to?

 

[Neogaia777]

Don’t you mean can’t want to?

I mean I'm not going to take the time to address every single case of idiocy on the internet.

It's a full time job, and I'm not getting paid enough for this.

No offense.

I've said what I said, and you guys can either take it or leave it, but I'm probably (maybe anyway) am probably just going to leave it for a little while after this.

God and I already knows I am/we are right about this, so...?

So I might just leave it for a little while after this, etc.

God Bless.

 

[HarleyER]

Destiny is only the same as fate, in human cynicism. The problem here is that too many people equate God's joyful, willed, full-of-life Intent (Decree, and Predestination, Ordaining, —"whatsoever cometh to pass") as mere cold fate.

Yes, I agree.

Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Fate is the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. Both of these is not what decree, predestination, ordaining is all about. God guides and directs the affairs of men, but man is responsible for his actions. It's a mystery. God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth. Joseph's action but God's control. Joseph was following God's will without knowing it while God directed his steps.

BTW-this is the one of the most beautiful of all doctrines. There is nothing we can do that is not outside of God's divine control and guidance.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I mean I'm not going to take the time to address every single case of idiocy on the internet.

It's a full time job, and I'm not getting paid enough for this.

No offense.

I've said what I said, and you guys can either take it or leave it, but I'm probably (maybe anyway) am probably just going to leave it for a little while after this.

God and I already knows I am/we are right about this, so...?

So I might just leave it for a little while after this, etc.

God Bless.

Woa Woa! Why am I typing right now? I didn’t want to type anything right now. Why is this happening? I don’t understand. Is God making me type this? I’m so confused right now, seriously this is crazy.

 

[Neogaia777]

Woa Woa! Why am I typing right now? I didn’t want to type anything right now. Why is this happening? I don’t understand. Is God making me type this? I’m so confused right now, seriously this is crazy.

You are an ungrateful lot, and by that I mean not just you, but all of you, etc.

But, either way, my yes's and no's, are the very same a His yes's and no's, and our wills are perfectly in synch, and there's absolutely nothing at all confusing about that for me, etc.

The way I feel, is the very same way He feels, etc, and those are also very much in synch, etc.

Maybe not always at the same time, or at the exact same point in time, but all of our feelings/experiences, especially with/toward other people, are the same, and it is a big huge part of how we both intimately know each other so well, or so very much exactly, etc.

If you've never been there with Him, you'll never know, etc.

But we have/do/are, etc.

And have/do/are "a lot", or "often", etc.

And it's not an easy cross to bear, etc.

But we still haven't suffered the same as Christ, etc.

But the way God felt, and all of what He went through in the OT? We are both very, very familiar with that, etc.

But I suppose we need to get over it now, since it was in the OT, and is old hat now, etc.

Still not easy to do though, etc.

Those specific kinds of emotions and feelings are very, very powerful, etc, and will overwhelm you and consume you if you let them, etc.

God Bless.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth.

What evidence do you have to support this? Matthew 2:23? It doesn’t say that God told Joseph to go there.

 

[HarleyER]

But that’s not what I actually said now is it? So who’s being disingenuous here?

BN-"You have one writer that supported this idea. "

H-"Saying this was only one tired old man opinion is disingenous and ignores history."

See post #225

 

[HarleyER]

I couldn’t care less what Trent taught it was rejected by every apostolic church other than Rome. And the only source I quoted was Iranaeus from 170AD.

When you talk of "free will" or "man cooperating with God" you are parroting the Catholic doctrine. This is what the Reformers fought against.

 

[HarleyER]

I never rejected Ancestral Sin, just the idea that man can’t repent and turn to God.

Man can't repent unless God grants it to them. Repentance is a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,​

 

[AbbaLove]

You are an ungrateful lot, and by that I mean not just you, but all of you, etc.

But, either way, my yes's and no's, are the very same a His yes's and no's, and our wills are perfectly in synch, and there's absolutely nothing at all confusing about that for me, etc.

The way I feel, is the very same way He feels, etc, and those are also very much in synch, etc.

You'd have to admt that your quote is not unlike a Christian "cult" (sect) ; especially when you say ...

"You are an ungrateful lot, and by that I mean not just you, but all of you, etc." (see bottom parallel) in red)
​

When one arrives to that conclusion it could be an indication that he/she is frustrated with their own witness and therefore unable to find a suitable congregation that exudes/radiates the LOVE of God (Mark 12:30-31). In other words perhaps you/we are as guilty as the ones we/you judge as unfit.

"Christian cults are new religious movements that have a Christian background but are considered to be theologically deviant by members of other Christian churches. The Christian countercult movement asserts that Christian sects whose beliefs are partially or wholly not in accordance with the Bible are erroneous."​

The question then becomes: Who are the "Christian sects" and who are the true followers of Christ?
​

 

[HarleyER]

I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The passage in Isaiah, fulfilled in Jesus' encounter with the rebellious Jews, highlights God's mercy in hardening their hearts, allowing us to receive the message of hope and be grafted in (Romans 11:25-26). Paul explains how this hardening has worked in favor of the Gentiles, giving us the privilege of hearing God's Word and choosing to accept or reject it. This opportunity demonstrates God's mercy towards both Gentiles (represented by Esau) and Israel (represented by Jacob), as discussed in Paul's discourse. Our responsibility is to share this message of hope, sowing the seed, watering it, and trusting God for the growth, without necessarily knowing the extent of humanity's hardened hearts.

I've never suggested that regeneration occurs apart from the Holy Spirit's work. Instead, I've emphasized that God regenerates us as we yield to His transformative power. In this passage, we see a mixed response, dependent on the heart's condition, which remains unknown to us. Our responsibility, therefore, is to obediently serve as conduits of the gospel message, sharing it through both word and deed, just as Paul did. This obedience allows God to work through us, to bring about his redemptive plan for humanity.

This is a Calvinist interpretation of that verse, based on word order.

Let's consider the immediate context ...as it starts with the Jews' rejection of Him.
Acts 13:39-41
Through Him, everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: "
'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.'

Everyone who 1) believes, 2) is set free. What is this something, that will happen if they reject? What happened in Habakkuk (the passage references Habakkuk 1:5). God will judge them through a Gentile nation...Did God judge them through a Gentile nation when they rejected His Son? History is a witness.

Acts 13:45
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

See Paul's thoughts on this in Romans 10, not all accepted the good news, but God was and is long-suffering,

"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Acts 13:46-48
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread throughout that region.

What did they hear that they rejoiced and praised God? That they had been given the opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree. Considering the overall context, the believing is not following an individual appointment to eternal life but rather the appointment of Gentiles into the olive tree as declared by the Prophets and affirmed by Paul in Romans.

The passages I mentioned earlier suggest that God communicates with us through various means, including creation, our conscience, and human experience. As Hebrews 11:6 states, faith involves believing in God's existence and His promise to reward those who seek Him. This is exemplified in Abraham's story, where God revealed Himself to him without a preacher, and Abraham responded with faith. This kind of faith is what we called to have, trusting that there is a God, we now have a name for this God - Jesus. It's not just about hearing the gospel preached, but also about responding. Responding to God's revelation in our lives by the measure of faith given us.

I consider it biblical teaching.

God is always actively drawing, even the person reading this post. He communicates in ways that surpass our understanding, yet everything He does is driven by His desire to welcome us into His kingdom. With boundless generosity, He pours out His love and grace, inviting us to experience the depth of His kindness.

I don't believe this is questioning God's justice. As He more than demonstrates His justice and mercy when He extends His invitation to us as Gentiles. In His wisdom, He extends the gift of salvation to all, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. As Paul emphasized, neither Jew nor Gentile earned their selection. Instead, God leveled the playing field, making faith - faith in Christ as Gods provision - the only way to become His child, which it always was. Both Jews and Gentiles must rely on God's grace, as neither can claim credit for their redemption.

I firmly believe God is indeed sovereign and powerful, even more so, that He is not intimidated by our failures or potential rejection of Him. His sovereignty transcends selecting an elite few, instead, it's about patiently drawing humanity to Himself for the sake of His Son. To suggest that the price God paid on the cross was insufficient for everyone, but only sufficient for a select few, is a slap in the face. You're right, we don't deserve this kindness, yet He extends it to all anyway. This reveals volumes about His character, but also ours.

"I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth"

There are many cases in Scripture where there are examples of this happening and where we are told this happens. The mission of Isaiah was to harden the people's heart. But prophesy often have multiple reoccurances in Scripture. Jesus spoke to people in parables so that they wouldn't understand.

I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The passage in Isaiah, fulfilled in Jesus' encounter with the rebellious Jews, highlights God's mercy in hardening their hearts, allowing us to receive the message of hope and be grafted in (Romans 11:25-26). Paul explains how this hardening has worked in favor of the Gentiles, giving us the privilege of hearing God's Word and choosing to accept or reject it. This opportunity demonstrates God's mercy towards both Gentiles (represented by Esau) and Israel (represented by Jacob), as discussed in Paul's discourse. Our responsibility is to share this message of hope, sowing the seed, watering it, and trusting God for the growth, without necessarily knowing the extent of humanity's hardened hearts.

I've never suggested that regeneration occurs apart from the Holy Spirit's work. Instead, I've emphasized that God regenerates us as we yield to His transformative power. In this passage, we see a mixed response, dependent on the heart's condition, which remains unknown to us. Our responsibility, therefore, is to obediently serve as conduits of the gospel message, sharing it through both word and deed, just as Paul did. This obedience allows God to work through us, to bring about his redemptive plan for humanity.

This is a Calvinist interpretation of that verse, based on word order.

Let's consider the immediate context ...as it starts with the Jews' rejection of Him.
Acts 13:39-41
Through Him, everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: "
'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.'

Everyone who 1) believes, 2) is set free. What is this something, that will happen if they reject? What happened in Habakkuk (the passage references Habakkuk 1:5). God will judge them through a Gentile nation...Did God judge them through a Gentile nation when they rejected His Son? History is a witness.

Acts 13:45
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

See Paul's thoughts on this in Romans 10, not all accepted the good news, but God was and is long-suffering,

"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Acts 13:46-48
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord spread throughout that region.

What did they hear that they rejoiced and praised God? That they had been given the opportunity to be grafted into the olive tree. Considering the overall context, the believing is not following an individual appointment to eternal life but rather the appointment of Gentiles into the olive tree as declared by the Prophets and affirmed by Paul in Romans.

The passages I mentioned earlier suggest that God communicates with us through various means, including creation, our conscience, and human experience. As Hebrews 11:6 states, faith involves believing in God's existence and His promise to reward those who seek Him. This is exemplified in Abraham's story, where God revealed Himself to him without a preacher, and Abraham responded with faith. This kind of faith is what we called to have, trusting that there is a God, we now have a name for this God - Jesus. It's not just about hearing the gospel preached, but also about responding. Responding to God's revelation in our lives by the measure of faith given us.

I consider it biblical teaching.

God is always actively drawing, even the person reading this post. He communicates in ways that surpass our understanding, yet everything He does is driven by His desire to welcome us into His kingdom. With boundless generosity, He pours out His love and grace, inviting us to experience the depth of His kindness.

I don't believe this is questioning God's justice. As He more than demonstrates His justice and mercy when He extends His invitation to us as Gentiles. In His wisdom, He extends the gift of salvation to all, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. As Paul emphasized, neither Jew nor Gentile earned their selection. Instead, God leveled the playing field, making faith - faith in Christ as Gods provision - the only way to become His child, which it always was. Both Jews and Gentiles must rely on God's grace, as neither can claim credit for their redemption.

I firmly believe God is indeed sovereign and powerful, even more so, that He is not intimidated by our failures or potential rejection of Him. His sovereignty transcends selecting an elite few, instead, it's about patiently drawing humanity to Himself for the sake of His Son. To suggest that the price God paid on the cross was insufficient for everyone, but only sufficient for a select few, is a slap in the face. You're right, we don't deserve this kindness, yet He extends it to all anyway. This reveals volumes about His character, but also ours.

"I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4)."

There are plenty of passages in the Old and New Testament as well as the teaching of the church that says otherwise. Jesus spoke in parables so that people would not understand. Isaiah's mission was to blind the people of Israel so that they would be sent into captivity. Isaiah asked, "How long" and God told him until everything is destroyed. (Isaiah 6).

It is God great love for us that He desires for all to be saved. However, you have to counter balance this that men love the darkness more than they love God. They do not want to come to the truth. (John 3:19-20). So if you have a very loving God who wants to have fellowship with us, and we are rebellious against wanting that fellowship, the only alternative God has is to change our hearts. The real question is why doesn't God change everyone's heart. This is where the mystery lies.

I've never suggested that regeneration occurs apart from the Holy Spirit's work. Instead, I've emphasized that God regenerates us as we yield to His transformative power. In this passage, we see a mixed response, dependent on the heart's condition, which remains unknown to us.

Exactly, but the heart condition isn't unknown to us. It is rebellious against the things of God (Psalms 53:1). This changing of the heart's condition is the work of the Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement.

This is a Calvinist interpretation of that verse, based on word order.

There is no "Calvinist" interpretation. You have to read the verse as it is written and put away your paradigm. What does it say? People who where appointed to eternal life were saved.

Considering the overall context, the believing is not following an individual appointment to eternal life but rather the appointment of Gentiles into the olive tree as declared by the Prophets and affirmed by Paul in Romans.

This isn't what the text states. The Jews rejected the message. Paul shook the dust off his feet and told the Jews they were unworthy of his time and attention. It is precisely the graphing in of Gentiles to the tree of faith in Romans 9-11. Gentiles are grafted into the family of God. We are adopted into the family of Abraham. The Jew, on the other hand, have a hardening upon them. They (for the most part) cannot hear the gospel until such a time as God determines. But Gentiles should not boast about this as we too might face the same situation. Romans 9-11 illustrates that God is the director of our salvation. Romans 9-11, btw, is an excellent illustration that God hardens some hearts not to hear the gospel. God doesn't "actively draw" every person. There are times when God hardens a person's heart.

To suggest that the price God paid on the cross was insufficient for everyone, but only sufficient for a select few, is a slap in the face.

I'm not suggesting Christ dead on the cross was insufficient for everyone. I'm suggesting that Christ died ONLY for those who believe in Him. There were people Christ told that their sin will remain with them. (John 9:41) So, yes, atonement is limited to only those who believe. Without the blood of Christ, there is no remission of sin.

 

[HarleyER]

What evidence do you have to support this? Matthew 2:23? It doesn’t say that God told Joseph to go there.

Where in the text do you see God telling Joseph to go to Nazareth?

Matt 2:19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.” 21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and settled in a city called Nazareth. This happened so that what was spoken through the prophets would be fulfilled: “He will be called a Nazarene.”​

The angel tells Joseph to go back to the land of Israel (not Narareth). Joseph did but looking at the political climate, and being warned in a dream, Joseph left the regions of Galilee and he settled in Nazareth. He was told not to stay in Galilee. His decision to move to Nazareth.

If you don't like this illustration I have others. For example, a person named Cyrus was prophesized by name to return the remant to their homeland by Isaiah (44:28, 45:1). 150 years later, a fellow named Cyrus decides he's going to return all the captives of Babylon. God ordained. Man acts.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, I agree.

Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Fate is the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. Both of these is not what decree, predestination, ordaining is all about. God guides and directs the affairs of men, but man is responsible for his actions. It's a mystery. God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth. Joseph's action but God's control. Joseph was following God's will without knowing it while God directed his steps.

BTW-this is the one of the most beautiful of all doctrines. There is nothing we can do that is not outside of God's divine control and guidance.

I'd agree, except that I don't see it as a mystery. To me it is simple. What is a mystery to me is why we insist on utter spontaneity to be endemic to the human will. We insist on being fellow-sentient beings with God, either both within a larger reality, or both above that reality. We want to be added to him, and not 'in Christ'.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi Mark! Good to see you.

I still don't understand what it means that we are inclined to make a specific choice and therefore we make that choice. I don't see there is any proof of such an inclination. Maybe you can explain that?

Different POV, I guess. Oh well. I'll try.

While in Genesis 6.5 it is talking about pre-flood humanity, "...every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time", I think it is no different today. We know from Romans and many other places you and I are familiar with, that natural man is at enmity with God. This is a continual state, and if interrupted by good deeds, they are still only because of God's causation—while the mind chose that good deed, the heart was still at enmity and sought only what it wanted, even if only for that instant of decision. Man bends toward enmity. And the judgement of the deeds is by God looking at the heart. WE see a good deed, but GOD sees enmity. And it is only IN CHRIST that this inclination is changed.

Each choice is specific, whether one is in Christ or at enmity with God. But what we are inclined to do, whether it is the best possible decision, such as we see in supposedly altruistic acts of the unsaved, or whether it is the smallest obedience (submission as a mindset, not mere momentary compliance) to God in the redeemed, is what makes that decision.

According to Romans 8 the mind of flesh is unable to please God, and I believe that is because God looks on the heart.

Take, for example, the false conversions that occur every day. A person regrets their lifestyle or fears events to come or for sudden emotional desire for what they conceive to be God, or for whatever reason, think themselves to commit to Christ, to yield themselves to God, to "accept him into their heart", or however you want to describe this "decision for Christ". Yet it "didn't take".

The question is not what name you put to the decision they made or the deed they did, but rather, "What does God see?"

 

[Panthers]

Yes, I agree.

Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Fate is the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. Both of these is not what decree, predestination, ordaining is all about. God guides and directs the affairs of men, but man is responsible for his actions. It's a mystery. God ordained Joseph to live in Nazareth so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, but Joseph looked at the events around him and made the decision to live in Nazareth. Joseph's action but God's control. Joseph was following God's will without knowing it while God directed his steps.

BTW-this is the one of the most beautiful of all doctrines. There is nothing we can do that is not outside of God's divine control and guidance.

We are all in one book, we each have a role.
In the post world shall we be given a book of life, and know what each did prior.

Will we remember who our role was? Or will we bow our head in shame?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where in the text do you see God telling Joseph to go to Nazareth?

Matt 2:19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.” 21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and settled in a city called Nazareth. This happened so that what was spoken through the prophets would be fulfilled: “He will be called a Nazarene.”​

The angel tells Joseph to go back to the land of Israel (not Narareth). Joseph did but looking at the political climate, and being warned in a dream, Joseph left the regions of Galilee and he settled in Nazareth. He was told not to stay in Galilee. His decision to move to Nazareth.

If you don't like this illustration I have others. For example, a person named Cyrus was prophesized by name to return the remant to their homeland by Isaiah (44:28, 45:1). 150 years later, a fellow named Cyrus decides he's going to return all the captives of Babylon. God ordained. Man acts.

Ok my point is that there is no evidence that suggests that God made Joseph choose to go to Nazareth. Just because it was prophesied doesn’t mean it was dictated. The prophecy could just been the result of God’s foreknowledge of where Joseph would decide to go.

 

[Clare73]

Hey Clare

You've mentioned this passage a few times, I thought I'd offer a different perspective

This was not God's charge to man's unfairness as you mentioned but rather a promise of fruitfulness to those who would heed His call.
Isaiah 55 presents a beautiful promise from God, inviting all to come and drink from the living waters of salvation, freely offered through Christ. This was an invitation, a call to wisdom, urging the Jews to turn away from wickedness and seek God's forgiveness. By surrendering to Christ, the embodiment of God's covenant promise, mirroring the reliable promise made to David. As David was a witness to the nations, so too will they be witnesses to the world, testifying to God's redemption and love (I see the disciples in view here). The prophet emphasizes the importance of seeking God while He is near, assuring that He will forgive and fulfill His plan to covenant with those who surrender to Christ. That is His ways and plans that is higher than ours, His ability to fulfill His promise.

Thanks!

Because sinners cannot find it in their own hearts to be reconciled to one who so frequently offended them, they are ready to fear God will not be reconciled to them. We think if God forgives once, he will not forgive again. But Jesus said 70 X 7 times. His ways are higher than our ways.

Do you think it does not correspond to the other verses in post #220?

 

[HarleyER]

We are all in one book, we each have a role.
In the post world shall we be given a book of life, and know what each did prior.

Will we remember who our role was? Or will we bow our head in shame?

Good question. I doubt if we'll recall our past failings but we will certainly be humbled in seeing His excellent glory.