SALVATION

[fhansen]

I think this understanding is almost nonexistent in some places in the world.

Yes, unfortunately I agree. There have been some novel concepts introduced, over the last several centuries especially.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ.

"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned. . .whoever does not believe stands condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

What about those who believe but don’t bear fruit or continue in lawlessness? John 15:2 Matthew 7:21-27

 

[BNR32FAN]

Salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ.

"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned. . .whoever does not believe stands condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

Or those who believe but don’t have love for others? 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, unfortunately I agree. There have been some novel concepts introduced, over the last several centuries especially.

I was just in a thread that says that we have absolutely no free will at all. Things like this are the result of doctrines being placed above the scriptures and all sense of logic or reality. And that’s quite a statement coming from me being a young earth creationist. Lol

 

[Clare73]

What about those who believe but don’t bear fruit or continue in lawlessness? John 15:2 Matthew 7:21-27

Or those who believe but don’t have love for others? 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

That is not true faith, that is counterfeit faith. . .for true faith has good works (obedience).
They are kidding themselves about their faith, for faith is also a heart matter, and their hearts are betraying them.

But keeping in mind, it is not the good works of true faith which saves, it is only the faith itself which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is not true faith, that is counterfeit faith. . .for true faith has good works (obedience).
They are kidding themselves about their faith, for faith is also a heart matter, and their hearts are betraying them.

But keeping in mind, it is not the good works of true faith which saves, it is only the faith itself which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

I politely disagree, just because works are expected doesn’t necessarily mean that our salvation is based on our works. What if it’s based on our faith and love? And our works are simply evidence of both?

 

[fhansen]

Scriptures?

I suspect some Scripture is not being understood in the light of/reconciled with all Scripture.

Contingency is all over Scripture from beginning to end-I already listed a few.

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:12-15

 

[Clare73]

I politely disagree, just because works are expected doesn’t necessarily mean that our salvation is based on our works. What if it’s based on our faith and love? And our works are simply evidence of both?

Agreed. . .

 

[fhansen]

But keeping in mind, it is not the good works of true faith which saves, it is only the faith itself which saves (Eph 2:8-9).

Faith saves as it plants in us the seed of God, the Source and Author of true righteousness, making holiness, which keeps us from condemnation, possible for us now. Paul just makes so much sense:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

 

[Clare73]

Contingency is all over Scripture from beginning to end-I already listed a few.

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

What they have done (works) demonstrates the true faith which saves.

Without works, the faith is not true, but counterfeit.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:12-15

 

[setst777]

The apostle John disagrees with you in 1 Jn 5:13-20, where we know
we have eternal life; i.e., salvation (v.13),
that he hears us (v.15),
we have what we asked of him (v.15),
anyone born of God does not continue to sin (v.18),
we are children (born) of God (v.19, Jn 1:13),
the Son of God has given us understanding (v.20),
we know him who is true (v.20),
we are in him who is true, that is, his Son Jesus Christ (v.20).

All the promises of God are guaranteed by God to everyone who believes, as the Gospel defines that "faith."

Many think they are in "The Faith," and call Jesus, "Lord," but they live in iniquity, living for the cares of this world, showing their faith to be empty.

Matthew 7:21 (WEB) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many others are in "The Faith," but later will wander away, fall away, begin living in willful sin (any sin), and others will allow themselves to be deceived by false doctrine - all of which a Christian can lose his/her salvation.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning “The Faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from “The Faith,” paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from “The Faith.”

Therefore, the NT continually warns Christians to make their calling and election sure, and so enter the Kingdom of God.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (EWEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Salvation is guaranteed by God to all who are in the Faith, but no guarantee is given that the Christian will remain faithful; rather the Christian is commanded, warned, encouraged, and urged to remain faithful to inherit the Promises of God.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 4:1 (EWEB) Let us [Christians] fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a {{promise of entering}} into {{His Rest.}}

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) 11 Let us [Christians] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Hebrews 10:26 (EWEB) 26 For if we [Christians] deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins [Hebrews 10:24-31]

Paul certainly did not consider his own faith, or that of Timothy, secure or guaranteed. Here is what Paul taught regarding Timothy’s certainty in the Gospel:

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Paul, likewise, did not consider his own salvation secure unless he remained faithful to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

 

[Clare73]

Faith saves as it plants in us the seed of God,

The seed of God is Jesus Christ.

Faith saves because by faith in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ, sin is forgiven and we are given right standing (justification) with God; i.e. sinless (justification -- declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of right standing with Gods justice, forensic righteousness).

the Source and Author of true righteousness, making holiness, which keeps us from condemnation, possible for us now. Paul just makes so much sense:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Yes, the true faith which saves (Eph 2:8-9) persists in good works.

Lack of good works demonstrates counterfeit faith which does not save.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What they have done (works) demonstrates the true faith which saves.

Without works, the faith is not true, but counterfeit.

I’m still not convinced on what is truly intended by the words faith and believe in the scriptures. The Greek words pistis, pisteuo, and pistos all imply faithfulness, fidelity, trustworthiness. Sometimes I think it’s more of a reference to devotion instead of a mere acknowledgement.

 

[Clare73]

All the promises of God are guaranteed by God to everyone who believes, as the Gospel defines that "faith."

Many think they are in "The Faith," and call Jesus, "Lord," but they live in iniquity, living for the cares of this world, showing their faith to be empty.

Matthew 7:21 (WEB) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many others are in "The Faith," but later will wander away, fall away, begin living in willful sin (any sin), and others will allow themselves to be deceived by false doctrine - all of which a Christian can lose his/her salvation.

1 Timothy 1:19 (WEB) 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning “The Faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from “The Faith,” paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from “The Faith.”

Therefore, the NT continually warns Christians to make their calling and election sure, and so enter the Kingdom of God.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (EWEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Salvation is guaranteed by God to all who are in the Faith, but no guarantee is given that the Christian will remain faithful; rather the Christian is commanded, warned, encouraged, and urged to remain faithful to inherit the Promises of God.

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 4:1 (EWEB) Let us [Christians] fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a {{promise of entering}} into {{His Rest.}}

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) 11 Let us [Christians] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

Hebrews 10:26 (EWEB) 26 For if we [Christians] deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins [Hebrews 10:24-31]

Paul certainly did not consider his own faith, or that of Timothy, secure or guaranteed. Here is what Paul taught regarding Timothy’s certainty in the Gospel:

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

Paul, likewise, did not consider his own salvation secure unless he remained faithful to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (WEB) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

All those failures demonstrate that their faith was counterfeit.

 

[fhansen]

The seed of God is Jesus Christ.

Faith saves because by faith in the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ, sin is forgiven and we are given right standing (justification) with God; i.e. sinless (justification -- declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of right standing with Gods justice, forensic righteousness).

The seed of God is the seed of God-and Christ is God. Our justice and our salvation is His seed in us that comes by way of faith, a seed that is meant to grow and blossom into much fruit, incidentally, as we remain in Him and He in us.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, the true faith which saves (Eph 2:8-9) persists in good works.

Lack of good works demonstrates counterfeit faith which does not save.

Nope, it just demonstrates a faith that had been buried or allowed to go dormant, not blossoming and expressing itself in love.

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

Read the Parable of the Talents, Matt 25:14-30, for a better idea of how grace works, and our part in cooperating with it.

 

[Clare73]

I’m still not convinced on what is truly intended by the words faith and believe in the scriptures. The Greek words pistis, pisteuo, and pistos all imply faithfulness, fidelity, trustworthiness. Sometimes I think it’s more of a reference to devotion instead of a mere acknowledgement.

Faith is belief and trust in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin and right standing with God's justice (sinless = justified, a forensic righteousness).

The OT sacrifices give us the meaning of Jesus's sacrifice; i.e. they covered the sin of God's people (Ro 4:7).
Our NT sacrifice forgives the sin of God's people (those who believe in Jesus Christ), saving them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on their sin at the Judgment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Faith is belief and trust in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin and right standing with God's justice (sinless = justified, a forensic righteousness).

The OT sacrifices give us the meaning of Jesus's sacrifice; i.e. they covered the sin of God's people (Ro 4:7).
Our NT sacrifice forgives the sin of God's people (those who believe in Jesus Christ), saving them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on their sin at the Judgment.

Pistis (faith) and pisteuo (believe) are basically the same word just used differently. Pistis is the noun form and pisteuo is the verb form but they both have the same meaning.

 

[fhansen]

I politely disagree, just because works are expected doesn’t necessarily mean that our salvation is based on our works. What if it’s based on our faith and love? And our works are simply evidence of both?

Yes, the love that God desires of us comes only from Him (Rom 5:5)-it's His own nature and it defines the righteousness that accomplishes what the law cannot. And the way to obtain that love is to draw near to Him, which is the object of faith. I've come to appreciate a teaching from a 16th century believer as being simple while incomparably profound and filled with understanding of the gospel:

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, the love that God desires of us comes only from Him (Rom 5:5)-it's His own nature and it defines the righteousness that accomplishes what the law cannot. And the way to obtain that love is to draw near to Him, which is the object of faith. I've come to appreciate a teaching from a 16th century believer as being simple while incomparably profound and filled with understanding of the gospel:

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Amen but I would add that the gifts of the Spirit are not automatic. In order to access them we must focus our mind on the Spirit otherwise we cannot discern the things of the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2-3 Ephesians 4:17-31