SALVATION

[fhansen]

"Rational" being defined by man's finite understanding rather than God's infinite understanding (Isa 55:8-9).

Of course He's infinitely superior to us and yet He's rational, and, being made in His image, we are rational beings as well. If Is 55 is used to exploit the concept that anything God does is right, even if objectively wrong, then we can end up justifying and following an evil or foolish God.

Jesus denies free will, saying that we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:44). Slaves are not free.

The reason He tells us that is so that we may know, so we can make an informed choice, to escape our slavery by His power. He draws and appeals to us-and our response is contingent:

If you hear My voice and open the door...
If you remain in Me...
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love...
If we confess our sins...
If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

 

[fhansen]

The gift (salvation) brought justification (Ro 5:15-16).

And gifts can be rejected, or thrown back away. Salvation is the result of justification-injustice (sin/unrighteousness) is what separates man from God to begin with. Then we must remain walking in that justice/righteousness, which is what the next chapter, Rom 6, exhorts us to do. And:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them." 2 Pet 2:20-21

 

[Clare73]

Of course He's infinitely superior to us and yet He's rational, and, being made in His image, we are rational beings as well. If Is 55 is used to exploit the concept that anything God does is right, even if objectively wrong, then we can end up justifying and following an evil or foolish God.

So God can do wrong. . .by whose measure?

Who is the measure for all the universe, God or man?

You do realize, friend, that you have made God's judgment subject to your judgment of what is right?

Now what could possibly be wrong with that?

The reason He tells us that is so that we may know, so we can make an informed choice, to escape our slavery by His power.
He draws and appeals to us-and our response is contingent:

No one turns down (what they experience to be) an appealing (desirable) response to good; i.e., to submit to God's will.
Only the born again experience the appeal (agreeableness) to submit to God as good.
No one else wants to give up their self-rule.

If you hear My voice and open the door...
If you remain in Me...
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love...
If we confess our sins...
If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Precisely. . .but only the spiritually born again actually hear, see and walk.
Everyone else is spiritually deaf, blind and lame (Jn 3:3-5, 1 Co 2:14, Ro 8:6-8),
which Is why Jesus performed miracles of healing the deaf, blind and lame. . .to prove he had the power to heal spiritual deafness, blindness and lameness (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[fhansen]

So God can do wrong. . .by whose measure?

We know right and wrong-because He's shown us, and were made in His image to begin with. The Scriptures a well, confirm this. The problem is that, for example, if God directly wills and causes every sin in the world, then heaven wouldn't be any better than hell anyway.

Precisely. . .but only the spiritually born again actually hear, see and walk.

Being graced: quickened, moved, coaxed, appealed to is not the same as being reborn. We are reborn as we come to Him in faith, responding to His grace, faith being both a gift of grace and a choice that we can refuse to make, a gift that we can reject-or throw away at some later time as those referred to in Heb 6 and 2 Pet 2 did.

"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-63

We're exhorted to persevere; we cannot predict our own perseverance.

 

[Clare73]

We know right and wrong-because He's shown us, and were made in His image to begin with. The Scriptures a well, confirm this. The problem is that, for example, if God directly wills and causes every sin in the world, then heaven wouldn't be any better than hell anyway.
Being graced: quickened, moved, coaxed, appealed to is not the same as being reborn. We are reborn as we come to Him in faith, responding to His grace, faith being both a gift of grace and a choice that we can refuse to make, a gift that we can reject-or throw away at some later time as those referred to in Heb 6 and 2 Pet 2 did.

"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-63
We're exhorted to persevere; we cannot predict our own perseverance.

We can believe the word of God in Php 2:13: "God works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

 

[fhansen]

We can believe the word of God in Php 2:13: "God works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Of course He does. God is love and wants none to perish. And yet some will.

 

[Clare73]

Of course He does. God is love and wants none to perish. And yet some will.

And, therefore, we can trust that those in whom God works (Php 2:13) will accomplish his purpose. . .salvation.
None in whom God works will fail.

 

[fhansen]

And, therefore, we can trust that those in whom God works (Php 2:13) will accomplish his purpose. . .salvation.
None in whom God works will fail.

No, grace is resistible-and He alone knows with certainty who belong to Him at the end of the day. Meanwhile, as stated previously, we can have a level of confidence based on our fruit. No good fruit, driven by love, then probably not one of His anyway. Just wishful thinking.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

They didn’t have to create themselves. All sin is the result of the abuse of a created good. The gift of free will is one such good. The abuse of it is the cause of all moral evil, aka “sin”. If God had not granted this gift to men and angels then no such evil could ever exist; His will would always be done IOW. If, OTOH, God directly wills and causes every rape, murder, lie, etc that occurs then He’s worse than satan, and definitely not worth following either way.

Evil, BTW, has no existence of its own. It’s the absence or privation or lessening of a created good-as darkness is the absence of light-and always opposed to and outside of the will of God.

I guess we can continue to deny what both Jesus and Paul had to say about sin, Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:17-21 and claim we are sinless via the exercise of freewill, except it never happened for anyone

 

[fhansen]

I guess we can continue to deny what both Jesus and Paul had to say about sin, Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:17-21 and claim we are sinless via the exercise of freewill, except it never happened for anyone

Yes??? And it never happened that I said such a thing could happen. We cannot overcome sin, we cannot be saved, apart from grace, apart from God, IOW. But grace is something that we can still accept or reject. We can cooperate with God's work in us, or not.

The whole point of the New Covenant is that we must enter and remain in communion with God. That is what Jesus came to establish.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yes??? And it never happened that I said such a thing could happen. We cannot overcome sin, we cannot be saved, apart from grace, apart from God, IOW. But grace is something that we can still accept or reject. We can cooperate with God's work in us, or not.

The whole point of the New Covenant is that we must enter and remain in communion with God. That is what Jesus came to establish.

I'm not aware of Jesus making a single person sinless in this present life

 

[fhansen]

I'm not aware of Jesus making a single person sinless in this present life

Neither have I-and I stated that absolute sinlessness is not possible in this life. And yet He told us that we must be and live righteously, by virtue of union with Him, the Vine. Paul explains this as well:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

And John:
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

"But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:5-6

 

[Clare73]

No, grace is resistible

And you know saving grace is resistible, how?

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him (Jn 6:65).
All whom the Father has given me will come to me (Jn 6:37).
I shall lose none of all that he has given me (Jn 6:39).

Jesus disagrees with you.

 

[fhansen]

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him (Jn 6:65).
All whom the Father has given me will come to me (Jn 6:37).
I shall lose none of all that he has given me (Jn 6:39).

You can't know who they are. He knows. Yes, the elect are the elect-and they will end up with Him. Until then we do the best we can with what we're given-"investing" our "talents", doing good, etc- and refrain from putting the cart ahead of the horse, from presuming that we'll persevere through the twists and turns and temptations of life, We know He can get us there, but, yes, we can resist and the bible makes this clear by warning us not to.

Again , your single best evidence that you are His, along with His desire to save you, is your love, born out in action.. Everything else is talk.
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love." Gal 5:6

 

[Clare73]

You can't know who they are. He knows. Yes, the elect are the elect-and they will end up with Him. Until then we do the best we can

The apostle John disagrees with you in 1 Jn 5:13-20, where we know
we have eternal life; i.e., salvation (v.13),
that he hears us (v.15),
we have what we asked of him (v.15),
anyone born of God does not continue to sin (v.18),
we are children (born) of God (v.19, Jn 1:13),
the Son of God has given us understanding (v.20),
we know him who is true (v.20),
we are in him who is true, that is, his Son Jesus Christ (v.20).

 

[fhansen]

The apostle John disagrees with you in 1 Jn 5:13-20, where we know
we have eternal life; i.e., salvation (v.13),
that he hears us (v.15),
we have what we asked of him (v.15),
anyone born of God does not continue to sin (v.18),
we are children (born) of God (v.19, Jn 1:13),
the Son of God has given us understanding (v.20),
we know him who is true (v.20),
we are in him who is true, that is, his Son Jesus Christ (v.20).

Encouraging words. I do the same thing when I'm explaining to people the ideal. But not everyone who applies those words to themselves is necessarily saved any more than someone who cries "Lord Lord" is necessarily saved. Talk is cheap

 

[Clare73]

Encouraging words. I do the same thing when I'm explaining to people the ideal. But not everyone who applies those words to themselves is necessarily saved any more than someone who cries "Lord Lord" is necessarily saved. Talk is cheap

Which has nothing to do with God's "ideal" plan as being God's one and only plan.

Seems some fear taking God at his word and feel the need to mitigate it.

Mans's mitigation of God's word is never wise, it should be presented clearly and thoroughly, where it will mitigate itself:
we have eternal life; i.e., salvation (v.13),
we are children (born) of God (v.19, Jn 1:13)
anyone born of God does not continue to sin (as a lifestyle, v.18).

Man has no authority to tell believers they cannot know they are saved.
Man does have authority to present the doctrine of salvation clearly, accurately and thoroughly.

 

[fhansen]

Seems some fear taking God at his word and feel the need to mitigate it.

His word says that we're not OSAS.

 

[Clare73]

His word says that we're not OSAS.

Scriptures?

I suspect some Scripture is not being understood in the light of/reconciled with all Scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

I think this understanding is almost nonexistent in some places in the world.