Mariolatry?

[RandyPNW]

If you can post a credible Catholic source that says Mary is ruling in heaven then I’ll retract my statement. If you can’t then you shouldn’t make such accusations.

I'm trying to eliminate justifications for calling Mary Queen of Heaven. I really am not basing my opposition on one single reason she could be given that title. I'm saying there is *no reason at all* for giving her that title, including the fact she doesn't rule in heaven or from heaven.

I already know the original justification for use of the term, Mother of God, which had to do with justifying the Trinity. If Jesus was God, and he was, and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then Mary must've given birth to God.

That's fine, as long as it is strictly a Trinitarian, Christological argument. But when the term is used to support the idea that Mary is sort of transcendent, above all other women, sinless, someone to be prayed to, a perpetual virgin, etc., then the term is, I think, being misused. She is being called "Queen of Heaven" in a sort of idolatrous way, elevating her beyond being simply the Mother of Jesus, divine man.

I've said this a number of times. I don't know how the point can be misunderstood now? You're simply diverting the argument to something else. The point is, there is no justification for calling Mary "Queen of Heaven," even though she was "Mother of God." She doesn't meet the qualifications for being a "queen" at all.

Mary was not an earthly queen, or queen's Mother--Jesus kingship was not of the earth. And she is not a heavenly queen, even though she had given birth to a man on earth who by definition is King of Heaven. Giving birth to a God did not make Mary herself a god. Giving birth to a King of Heaven did not make her a Queen of Heaven.

 

[d taylor]

Post 254

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I am sorry but do not see the connection to post 254

 

[Always in His Presence]

I’m not sure how this answers the following question.

“Do you believe in the validity of asking siblings in Jesus here on earth to pray for you, when in trial and need?”

It’s a fair question. Is praying for others a bad thing?

James 5:16. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

?

I need you to please answer my question first - this way we will have a conversation - that needs two people asking and answering questions.

If you are not willing, nor able to, I understand.

 

[Always in His Presence]

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I am sorry but do not see the connection to post 254

Excuse me - 354

 

[FenderTL5]

What does "there is one mediator between God and man" mean?

I can help you here. Jesus Christ was and is God Incarnate, 100% God and 100% man making Him unique in all of eternity, being both.
Man's restoration to God can only take place through Him as we become like Him.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It has nothing to do with prayer or praying.

 

[RandyPNW]

Why do you think they’re dead? Do you not believe that Mary and the saints received eternal life?

We shouldn't get confused over the terms we're using. When we speak here of the "dead" among the saints we're talking not of the destiny of their spirits, but rather, of the fate of their bodies.

We all die, even though Jesus said, cryptically, that we shall "never die." Jesus was speaking of the eternal spirit the saints have following redemption--not of the indestructability of the human spirit, which all have, but of the sense that Eternal Life is, by definition, an existence alongside of Jesus, who has a quality of life that is both eternal and virtuous.

So praying to the saints whose bodies have "died" is forbidden, based on the OT principle in law that contact with those passed on should not be communicated with. There is a chasm separating the deceased from the current mortals who are still living.

 

[RandyPNW]

That’s not the biblical definition of prayer. The Greek word parakaleō means

1. to call to one's side, call for, summon
2. to address, speak to, (call to, call upon), which may be done in the way of exhortation, entreaty, comfort, instruction, etc.
a. to admonish, exhort
b. to beg, entreat, beseech

Let's not confuse the Dictionary definition of "prayer," which is how we speak of the term in English, with the so-called "biblical definition" of "prayer." We wouldn't use the term "prayer" at all in the Bible unless it refers to the Dictionary definition of the term.

Yes, there are different ways to use the English term "prayer," such as to entreat someone. But the term is being used in the same way that God is being prayed to, to summon help from beyond, and not simply to entreat someone here on earth for help.

I do understand that Catholics do not see Mary as a "god." But they are praying to her just as one would communicate with one beyond our earthly existence. Even if it is not calling her a "god," and simply asking her for help, it is not an earthly prayer, and falls into an unusual category which I would call necromancy.

 

[RandyPNW]

Consult-seek information or advice from (someone with expertise in a particular area)

Nobody’s doing this when praying to Mary or the saints.

Distinction without a difference?

 

[Grip Docility]

I need you to please answer my question first - this way we will have a conversation - that needs two people asking and answering questions.

If you are not willing, nor able to, I understand.

You are purposefully removing the biblical difference between intercessory prayer by a Sibling in Jesus and the Arbitration of God Almighty for the reason of sustaining a false presupposed argument. IMO

I didn’t want to address this, but you have stood on a non sequitur argument to avoid the obvious answer that asking people to pray for us is biblical.

You aren’t arguing for the sake of reason, but for the sake of unreasonable bias. IMO

 

[concretecamper]

Let’s look at your own words shall we?

Then



I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

I don't see the word dispute appear in the definition of intercession. Maybe you missed that fact in your rush in trying to be clever.

 

[BNR32FAN]

These may be helpful:

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of JesusYOUTUBE: ...

archive.org

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Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism Says : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism SaysYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

archive.org

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Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO

archive.org

​

Doctrine Death Danny Vierra Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Doctrine Death Danny Vierra Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or AliveYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

​

Secrets Unsealed Stephen Bohr Mary, The Mother Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Secrets Unsealed Stephen Bohr Mary, The Mother Of JesusYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

Is there any Biblical or Historical data to confirm such a claim that Mary was "assumed" into Heaven?

No, and even Rome fully admits this, for they base it on mere "tradition" and fallen human "reason".

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“I answer that, Nothing is handed down in the canonical Scriptures concerning the sanctification of the Blessed Mary as to her being sanctified in the womb; indeed, they do not even mention her birth. But as Augustine, in his tractate on the Assumption of the Virgin, argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven, and yet Scripture does not relate this...” [Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica; Third Part; Question 27; Article I; “I answer that...”] [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas Second and Revised Edition, 1920 Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol. Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii. APPROBATIO ORDINIS Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L. Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ ] - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin (Tertia Pars, Q. 27)​

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“... At the same time, it must be confessed that we do not possess any authentic documents bearing directly on Mary's post-Pentecostal life. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “V”; “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary”; subsection “The Post-pentesoctal Life Of Mary”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary​

“... Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

"St. John Damascene St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem: St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

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"The feast of the Assumption Regarding the origin of the feast we are also uncertain. It is more probably the anniversary of the dedication of some church than the actual anniversary of Our Lady's death. That it originated at the time of the Council of Ephesus, or that St. Damasus introduced it in Rome is only a hypothesis. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Feast Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

Ok I wasn’t referring to any of these other topics, I was specifically referring to evidence specifically from the Catholic Church that teaches that Mary is ruling in heaven. It has to come from a Catholic source otherwise it can’t be claimed that it’s what they actually teach. I didn’t see any Catholic sources on this subject in the links you provided.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let’s look at your own words shall we?

Then



I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

One involves a dispute the other doesn’t.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I can help you here. Jesus Christ was and is God Incarnate, 100% God and 100% man making Him unique in all of eternity, being both.
Man's restoration to God can only take place through Him as we become like Him.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It has nothing to do with prayer or praying.

it has everything to do with prayer -

Read the verses before 1 Tim 2:5 - context is important - there is no broken thought.

1 Tim 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

You are purposefully removing the biblical difference between intercessory prayer by a Sibling in Jesus and the Arbitration of God Almighty for the reason of sustaining a false presupposed argument. IMO

Scripture please showing the intercessory prayer by a sibling in Jesus. I thought we were talking about His mom?

I didn’t want to address this, but you have stood on a non sequitur argument to avoid the obvious answer that asking people to pray for us is biblical.

nope - I apologize, but you are either not reading my post, mistaken or we just believe differently.

You aren’t arguing for the sake of reason, but for the sake of unreasonable bias. IMO

IMO - no, I am not - but thank you for your conversation to this point.

 

[Always in His Presence]

One involves a dispute the other doesn’t.

That might be your interpretation - but that isn't what I have already shown in scripture.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I don't see the word dispute appear in the definition of intercession. Maybe you missed that fact in your rush in trying to be clever.

No - I'm not clever in any way shape or form - I am just a child of God who loves Scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No - my words are quite plain - Mary was NOT resurrected from the grave as Jesus was. In fact, after the Birth of Jesus Mary was mentioned only a couple of times.

Matt 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, [a]Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us?

Acts 1:13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

There is zero mention of her life, death or certainly not resurrection. That is Christ and Christ alone.

I apologize because the post you replied to was in response this post.

Jesus died and we pray to Him.

The fact of the matter is that the Theotokos and the other saints are not dead, but are alive in Christ.

Jesus rose from the dead - we pray to a risen Savior -

Mary did not

So according to your response to the Liturgist’s post appeared as if you were implying that Mary is dead.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That might be your interpretation - but that isn't what I have already shown in scripture.

Can you quote that post? I can’t find it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm trying to eliminate justifications for calling Mary Queen of Heaven. I really am not basing my opposition on one single reason she could be given that title. I'm saying there is *no reason at all* for giving her that title, including the fact she doesn't rule in heaven or from heaven.

I already know the original justification for use of the term, Mother of God, which had to do with justifying the Trinity. If Jesus was God, and he was, and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then Mary must've given birth to God.

That's fine, as long as it is strictly a Trinitarian, Christological argument. But when the term is used to support the idea that Mary is sort of transcendent, above all other women, sinless, someone to be prayed to, a perpetual virgin, etc., then the term is, I think, being misused. She is being called "Queen of Heaven" in a sort of idolatrous way, elevating her beyond being simply the Mother of Jesus, divine man.

I've said this a number of times. I don't know how the point can be misunderstood now? You're simply diverting the argument to something else. The point is, there is no justification for calling Mary "Queen of Heaven," even though she was "Mother of God." She doesn't meet the qualifications for being a "queen" at all.

Mary was not an earthly queen, or queen's Mother--Jesus kingship was not of the earth. And she is not a heavenly queen, even though she had given birth to a man on earth who by definition is King of Heaven. Giving birth to a God did not make Mary herself a god. Giving birth to a King of Heaven did not make her a Queen of Heaven.

Nobody is saying that Mary is a god and nobody is saying that she rules in heaven. And I’ve already explained that David’s mother was called the queen. You might reject that application to Mary but you can’t honestly say that there is “no justification for calling her queen of Heaven” since there is a scriptural reference to David’s mother being the queen of Israel. You might disagree with that application but it does have something to support the idea from scripture and Jewish tradition.

 

[Always in His Presence]

So according to your response to the Liturgist’s post appeared as if you were implying that Mary is dead.

Certainly - have you heard or seen her walking around after she physically died? Only one is the risen savior, who manifest in the flesh three days after He died and was buried. He is the ONLY mediator between God and man. Mary is spiritually alive in heaven - probably talking with my mother. She has no higher authority or access to Jesus in heaven than any other born again believer.

Nobody is saying that Mary is a god and nobody is saying that she rules in heaven. And I’ve already explained that David’s mother was called the queen. You might reject that application to Mary but you can’t honestly say that there is “no justification for calling her queen of Heaven”

Absolutely yes

since there is a scriptural reference to David’s mother being the queen of Israel.

Yes, his mother was the Queen of Israel - she was royalty - sat on the throne and ruled Israel.

You might disagree with that application but it does have something to support the idea from scripture and Jewish tradition.

Mary does not sit on the throne in heaven - she does not rule in heaven - nor is she a figurehead - hence she cannot be the queen