Mariolatry?

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry, that is certainly tradition, but is absolutely no place in scripture.

Praying to Mary also contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Mediation and intercession are two completely different things my friend.

Mediation-intervention in a dispute in order to resolve it; arbitration:

Intercession-the action of intervening on behalf of another

When you pray to God on someone else’s behalf you are interceding for them not mediation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus rose from the dead - we pray to a risen Savior -

Mary did not

Are you implying that Mary did not receive eternal life? This is Jesus’ mother we’re talking about here, the woman whom God chose to bring Christ into the world so I would choose my answer carefully.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one ever said she gave birth to God, but your post clearly shows you’re splitting his natures into two separate when both are not to be separated.

That’s not exactly accurate the way you worded it. The term Theotokos literally means God bearer. In my opinion the best way to deal with people who don’t understand the term is to quote Cyrus’ second letter to Nestorius because he explains what the term means and what it doesn’t mean.

 

[BNR32FAN]

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​

Mary gave birth to God's human nature, not God's divine nature. In Mary's womb these natures were combined to bring to humanity the God-man, Jesus
Mariolatry?

If His natures were combined IN HER WOMB as you said then she gave birth to BOTH His human and divine nature. I hope your not saying that His natures were combined in her womb then separated before He exited her womb.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What's the point? If people pray to dead humans, it's wrong.

Why do you think they’re dead? Do you not believe that Mary and the saints received eternal life?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, that's the definition of prayer. Perhaps you think Dictionaries also just go by their imagination?

That’s not the biblical definition of prayer. The Greek word parakaleō means

1. to call to one's side, call for, summon
2. to address, speak to, (call to, call upon), which may be done in the way of exhortation, entreaty, comfort, instruction, etc.
a. to admonish, exhort
b. to beg, entreat, beseech

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are adding to what was said. Both would be wrong. A person can consult with the dead without use of an "oracle."

Yeah I apologize I thought that the way I worded that statement might be a bit confusing but my point was that consulting or seeking council is what was forbidden which is a two way conversation, and the use of oracles, mediums, fortune tellers, or any kind of magic or witchcraft is also forbidden. Praying to someone isn’t seeking council or consulting because it’s a one way communication. The person isn’t seeking council they’re asking someone to speak to God on their behalf.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Any of these situations is forbidden. The medium is condemned precisely because he "consults the dead."

Consult-seek information or advice from (someone with expertise in a particular area)

Nobody’s doing this when praying to Mary or the saints.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, you don't call someone "queen of heaven" when she is not entitled to such a title. What does that even mean??

If she’s the mother of the king in Jewish tradition that does make her the queen of His Kingdom.

It sounds as if they think she is ruling over the earth with Jesus. But I don't know? She didn't rule with Jesus while he was on earth. And she won't rule with him while he is in heaven in the sense of lording it over humanity.

That’s a common problem, a lot of people get riled up about what they think it means instead of what they teach that it means. You can’t condemn a teaching that isn’t actually taught.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You don't appear to have the facts.

If you can post a credible Catholic source that says Mary is ruling in heaven then I’ll retract my statement. If you can’t then you shouldn’t make such accusations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Attempt at reconciliation, void of personal beliefs expressed, but anchored to scripture.

Conflict that still exists:​

Catholics, Orthodoxy and most Lutherans believe that petitioning the Living Saints in Heaven to Pray for them is identical to asking living brethren to pray for them, via Prayer Requests, though the Living Saints in Heaven have a far more direct line.​

Protestants believe that petitioning the brethren that are still alive in their mortal coils and sainted sinners, awaiting to cross over through death is acceptable, while the entire matter of petitioning the Living Saints in Heaven is a very difficult matter for protestants, because they argue and infight over the state of the dead via the conflicting doctrines of (The immortal soul vs Christian Mortalism).​

Possible reconciliation available: The Catholic act of making Prayer requests to the Saints in Heaven is identical to the Protestant act of making prayer requests to brethren on earth, as Catholics have faith that the Saints are Alive in and through Jesus Christ in Heaven. The possible reconciliation is in the matter that the state of the dead was never a contentious bone until the Protest against the Mother Physical Church which has led to over 30,000 arguing offspring. Grace could be given from each side on the complex doctrines about "The state of the dead" that give compassion to one another's views as matters of chosen doctrine and personal conviction. This could make matters respectful of one another's similarities, versus one another's differences. Prayer requests are a common practice among the two arguing factions.​

​

@The Liturgist; The purpose of these two posts isn't to ask anyone to compromise conviction or sacred belief, but an attempt to identify the schism of the matter, while identifying possible ways to establish peace between brethren. Please be brutal with me if this is accurate speech and viable, or simply too much to ask of anyone. I know you are excellent at all of this and desire your well studied feedback.

Yeah this makes perfect sense to me. Moses and Elijah didn’t appear to be very dead at the Transfiguration.

 

[GentleGospeller]

If you can post a credible Catholic source that says Mary is ruling in heaven then I’ll retract my statement. If you can’t then you shouldn’t make such accusations.

These may be helpful:

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of JesusYOUTUBE: ...

archive.org

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Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism Says : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Biblical Mary The Ark Of The New Testament As Roman Catholicism SaysYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

archive.org

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Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Did The Mary Of Scripture Remain An Ever Virgin (Perpetual Virgin) As Romanism Says - NO

archive.org

​

Doctrine Death Danny Vierra Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Doctrine Death Danny Vierra Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or AliveYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

​

Secrets Unsealed Stephen Bohr Mary, The Mother Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Secrets Unsealed Stephen Bohr Mary, The Mother Of JesusYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

Is there any Biblical or Historical data to confirm such a claim that Mary was "assumed" into Heaven?

No, and even Rome fully admits this, for they base it on mere "tradition" and fallen human "reason".

​

“I answer that, Nothing is handed down in the canonical Scriptures concerning the sanctification of the Blessed Mary as to her being sanctified in the womb; indeed, they do not even mention her birth. But as Augustine, in his tractate on the Assumption of the Virgin, argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven, and yet Scripture does not relate this...” [Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica; Third Part; Question 27; Article I; “I answer that...”] [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas Second and Revised Edition, 1920 Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol. Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii. APPROBATIO ORDINIS Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L. Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ ] - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin (Tertia Pars, Q. 27)​

​

“... At the same time, it must be confessed that we do not possess any authentic documents bearing directly on Mary's post-Pentecostal life. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “V”; “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary”; subsection “The Post-pentesoctal Life Of Mary”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary​

“... Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

"St. John Damascene St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem: St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Fact Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

​

"The feast of the Assumption Regarding the origin of the feast we are also uncertain. It is more probably the anniversary of the dedication of some church than the actual anniversary of Our Lady's death. That it originated at the time of the Council of Ephesus, or that St. Damasus introduced it in Rome is only a hypothesis. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “A”; “Assumption Of Mary”; subsection “The Feast Of The Assumption”] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary​

 

[Valletta]

These may be helpful:

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of Jesus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Is The Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive, Assumed In Heaven Or Buried In The Ground Awaiting Her Resurrection At The Second Coming Of JesusYOUTUBE: ...

archive.org

​

The very first line accuses Pope Francis of idolatry. I suppose helpful for those who push such accusations against Catholics.

Let's save some time. The Catholic Church is not and never was Bible-only, the Catholic Church was thriving before one word of the New Testament was written. Likewise there is no historical document going back to the Apostles that explicitly records the Assumption. There is no reason to go through numerous anti-Catholic websites to tell you what has never been a secret. Let's start from there and let me concisely summarize:

The Church received the deposit of faith that ended when the last Apostle died. But the Church acknowledges that we come to a deeper understanding of that deposit of faith as time passes. That is, while major truths, such as those regarding Jesus were revealed long ago, other truths, such as the Assumption, were "veiled." Sometimes the term "hierarchy of truths" is used to describe these truths. Eventually, with a deeper understanding of the Word of God, the people in the Church believed in the Assumption. This is reflected mainly in the liturgy passed down, which started in the East. But also in feast days, artwork, etc. The Pope declared to be true what the bishops of the Church had come to believe.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Mediation and intercession are two completely different things my friend.

Let’s look at your own words shall we?

Mediation-intervention in a dispute in order to resolve it; arbitration:

Then

Intercession-the action of intervening on behalf of another

When you pray to God on someone else’s behalf you are interceding for them not mediation.

I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

 

[Grip Docility]

Let’s look at your own words shall we?

Then



I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

Do you believe in the validity of asking siblings in Jesus here on earth to pray for you, when in trial and need?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Do you believe in the validity of asking siblings in Jesus here on earth to pray for you, when in trial and need?

Do you believe there is a difference in intervening and intervening?

What does "there is one mediator between God and man" mean?

 

[d taylor]

Let’s look at your own words shall we?

Then



I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

-
​

Did you mean interceding and intervening.
Because you wrote I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Are you implying that Mary did not receive eternal life? This is Jesus’ mother we’re talking about here, the woman whom God chose to bring Christ into the world so I would choose my answer carefully.

No - my words are quite plain - Mary was NOT resurrected from the grave as Jesus was. In fact, after the Birth of Jesus Mary was mentioned only a couple of times.

Matt 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, [a]Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us?

Acts 1:13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

There is zero mention of her life, death or certainly not resurrection. That is Christ and Christ alone.

 

[Always in His Presence]

-
​

Did you mean interceding and intervening.
Because you wrote I’m a little confused. What is the difference between intervening and intervening?

Post 254

 

[Grip Docility]

Do you believe there is a difference in intervening and intervening?

What does "there is one mediator between God and man" mean?

I’m not sure how this answers the following question.

“Do you believe in the validity of asking siblings in Jesus here on earth to pray for you, when in trial and need?”

It’s a fair question. Is praying for others a bad thing?

James 5:16. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

?