VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Who does Jesus raise at the first Resurrection ?

Revelation 20:6​

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years

​

​

You first need to understand that there will be millions and millions of new converts saved in the Trib. All of them will be martyred, and they then become the GM ("great multitude" first mentioned in Rev 7:9). Rev 6:9-11 is the first group of martyred converts. Verse 11 mentions "the number" of "fellow servants" that must be killed like they were killed (the martyred souls in Rev 6:9-11). So, the "fellow servants" cited in verse 11 will be found elsewhere. That would be in Rev 20:4, as they are millions of more martyrs from the Trib. They are all resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They then all appear together in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17. You have to connect the martyrs in Rev 6:9-11 with the martyrs in Rev 20:4, and all should be crystal clear.

 

[Oseas]

When the antichrist takes over, he or it deceives many into believing he is God. Many so-called Christians will be deceived. Many in the pretrib camp will be deceived because they have been brainwashed to believe they won't be present for antichrist or the beasts mark. That will lead many to worship the beast and take its mark. Once anyone does that, they are condemned.

John 2:14 and 18&21 and 4:1
14 I have written unto you...because ye have known Him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you... because ye are strong, and the Word of GOD abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the Truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
John 4:1
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets(false preachers of the Word of GOD-2 Corinthians 11:13-15, take a look) are gone out into the world.

Ephesians 6:10-14
10 My brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the Power of His might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of GOD, that ye may be able to withstand IN THE EVIL DAY, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with Truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

The battle is against three unclean spirits like frogs (Why frogs?) - Revelation 16:13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs(A SATANIC TRINITRY) come out of the MOUTH of the dragon(Revelation 12:9 and 13:11, take a look), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast(the MAN Beast of sea), and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet(a false messiah-John 5:43-47).

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of GOD Almighty.

The Lord warned:
15 Behold, I come as a thief...

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Oseas]

You first need to understand that there will be millions and millions of new converts saved in the Trib

What is written above will NEVER happen, but NEVER. New converts for what? Yeah, to what??? The validate of the daily sacrifice of my Lord JESUS, Christ JESUS, will expire before the satanic theory you are preaching of be saved in the Trib. What really will happen is that the dragon-the false messiah of the Jews(John 5:43-47), by his TAIL, as is written in Isaiah 9:15-16, and from where you are preaching, he will draw the third part of Christian people from this current heavenly place in Christ JESUS, and they will lose their souls for ever.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time-Revelation 12:12.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I don't eat of your fruit

Your positions are merely in denial of the obvious. The tempter tempts us all, no exceptions.

And evil thoughts do defile all of us regardless of whether we agree that it happens or not. People who don't recognize this fact would be considered spiritually asleep at the wheel.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

There were no exemptions handed out to anyone but God in Christ

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

That means we will have no part in the Trib. We will never enter the Trib. We will not even be on Earth for the Trib.

Who's "we?"

Made this observation to you prior and your position can't address this:

We consists of "me" and "the tempter." There is an accurate "we." Not the same parties. The WAY the scriptures see everyone is people/tempter

There are many examples of this fact, but the most obvious was when Satan spoke through Peter. There was "we."

One of the parties can very well enter into the Great Tribulation and in fact we should be waiting, anxious and thankful when that happens, you SEE?

We "all" still have an enemy. And that enemy we bear in our own flesh via temptations, Gal 4:14, 2 Cor 12:7, Romans 7:21, 1 Tim 1:15

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

John 2:14 and 18&21 and 4:1
14 I have written unto you...because ye have known Him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you... because ye are strong, and the Word of GOD abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the Truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
John 4:1
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets(false preachers of the Word of GOD-2 Corinthians 11:13-15, take a look) are gone out into the world.

Ephesians 6:10-14
10 My brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the Power of His might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of GOD, that ye may be able to withstand IN THE EVIL DAY, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with Truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

The battle is against three unclean spirits like frogs (Why frogs?) - Revelation 16:13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs(A SATANIC TRINITRY) come out of the MOUTH of the dragon(Revelation 12:9 and 13:11, take a look), and out of the MOUTH of the Beast(the MAN Beast of sea), and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet(a false messiah-John 5:43-47).

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of GOD Almighty.

The Lord warned:
15 Behold, I come as a thief...

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

purebibleforum.com

Your position is a complete failure in recognizing the difference between people and devils i.e.

Your position promotes them to be the SAME

Which is actually quite a common heresy

Just so you know Jesus never intended to convert or save any devils

And people are not devils

 

[JulieB67]

I will inform you: They are the Christian peoples, scattered among the nations;

Exactly!

Everybody continues to put all the tribes into 1 or 2 and call them Jewish. Forgetting that the other 10 scattered abroad.

 

[JulieB67]

I think what Jesus is saying to these people is that he will keep them safe from temptation via the trib. Meaning we are all going to be tempted by something

Yes.

When the antichrist takes over, he or it deceives many into believing he is God. Many so-called Christians will be deceived. Many in the pretrib camp will be deceived because they have been brainwashed

Exactly.

 

[Oseas]

Your positions are merely in denial of the obvious. The tempter tempts us all, no exceptions.

And evil thoughts do defile all of us regardless of whether we agree that it happens or not. People who don't recognize this fact would be considered spiritually asleep at the wheel.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

There were no exemptions handed out to anyone but God in Christ

Your position is a complete failure in recognizing the difference between people and devils i.e.

Your position promotes them to be the SAME

Which is actually quite a common heresy

Just so you know Jesus never intended to convert or save any devils

And people are not devils

Your opinions and human conceptions are good for nothing, except to be a stumbling block for the believers. To understand what JESUS said, first of all it is necessary to have the Spirit of Christ, Christ JESUS, understand? In the first stage when your thoughts proceeding from your heart and you are tempted and is drawn away of your own lust, and enticed, until this stage your lust was/ is only conceived. Then when lust has conceived and brings forth sin, being sin performed/ consummated, i.e. the actual act of adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, then all these evil things from within your heart defile you, they defile the man, yeah, when sin is consummated it also brings forth death. By the way, the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. And it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

The worst of all sin is to twist the Word of GOD and using GOD's Word to make the lie be as if it being true. My Lord JESUS makes it very very clear, saying: Matthew 12:31-32:-->31 All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world(in this current Dispensation of Grace), neither in the world to come, the next immediate world, millennial Kingdom of GOD.--> (as is written in Luke 20:35-36 combined with Revelation 11:15-18, take a look)

James 1:16-18
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights(1John1:5-7, take a look) with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of His own will begat He us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures (as said Paul Apostle to the Church of Ephesians-Ephesians 1:3-8).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Your opinions and human conceptions are good for nothing, except to be a stumbling block for the believers.

I point out the fact that people aren't devils and you have no response? And call it a stumbling block?

Funny and sad. Both.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Who's "we?"

Made this observation to you prior and your position can't address this:

We consists of "me" and "the tempter." There is an accurate "we." Not the same parties. The WAY the scriptures see everyone is people/tempter

There are many examples of this fact, but the most obvious was when Satan spoke through Peter. There was "we."

One of the parties can very well enter into the Great Tribulation and in fact we should be waiting, anxious and thankful when that happens, you SEE?

We "all" still have an enemy. And that enemy we bear in our own flesh via temptations, Gal 4:14, 2 Cor 12:7, Romans 7:21, 1 Tim 1:15

 

[Oseas]

I point out the fact that people aren't devils and you have no response? And call it a stumbling block?
Funny and sad. Both.

Friend, why tempt you me? My Lord JESUS said unto His disciples: John 6:70:--> Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Now, now, if among the twelve disciples of my Lord JESUS one was a devil, how many devils there will be among 8 billions(except the true believers)of peoples followers mainly of the false Christianity as the idolater Catholicism, and the esoteric Judaism, and Budhism,and spiritism, and all religions invented by the Devil in his world as a whole for his followers? -->Revelation 13:2-5 and 11-14:

2And the Beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,and his feet were as the feet of a bear,and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:and the DRAGON gave him(to the MAN Beast of sea)his Power, and his Seat, and great Authority.

3 And I saw one of his (7) heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and ALL THE WORLD wondered after the Beast.
4 And they(ALL THE WORLD) worshipped the dragon-THE DEVIL/SATAN- which gave power unto the Beast(unto the MAN Beast of sea): and they worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? --> Michael is able.

5 And there was given unto him (unto the Gentile MAN Beast of sea) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (the first half of the last week of 7 years of the World of Devil)



11 And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth (a second MAN Beast-Satan incarnated, son of perdition-John 8:44 combined with 2Thes.2:3-4); and he had two horns like a lamb(a false lamb, a false messiah-John 5:43-47), and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he(will) do(eth) great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the Beast (in the sight of the MAN Beast of sea); saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the Beast, which had the wound by a Sword, and did live.

Get ready, the above revealed will happen from now on, and be LITERALLY fulfilled.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Who's "we?"

Made this observation to you prior and your position can't address this:

We consists of "me" and "the tempter." There is an accurate "we." Not the same parties. The WAY the scriptures see everyone is people/tempter

There are many examples of this fact, but the most obvious was when Satan spoke through Peter. There was "we."

One of the parties can very well enter into the Great Tribulation and in fact we should be waiting, anxious and thankful when that happens, you SEE?

We "all" still have an enemy. And that enemy we bear in our own flesh via temptations, Gal 4:14, 2 Cor 12:7, Romans 7:21, 1 Tim 1:15

"We" are "you" and unbelievers are "those" in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

We believers will not enter the Trib. After the rapture, only unbelievers, "those who dwell on the earth," will be left behind.

In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" are unbelievers. Many become new converts by the hard work of the 144k and the 2W; most do not.

In Rev 3:10, there is no way to connect "you" with "those." "Those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, refers only to unbelievers. Here is Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Therein, you have a distinction made between new converts in the Trib (all are martyred, as the ones above) and the unbelievers who remain on Earth. This same distinction is made throughout the Trib. There are millions and millions of new converts in the Trib. Praise the Lord! Those are never Christians who entered the Trib.

 

[Oseas]

"We" are "you" and unbelievers are "those" in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

We believers will not enter the Trib. After the rapture, only unbelievers, "those who dwell on the earth," will be left behind.

In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" are unbelievers. Many become new converts by the hard work of the 144k and the 2W; most do not.

In Rev 3:10, there is no way to connect "you" with "those." "Those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, refers only to unbelievers. Here is Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Therein, you have a distinction made between new converts in the Trib (all are martyred, as the ones above) and the unbelievers who remain on Earth. This same distinction is made throughout the Trib. There are millions and millions of new converts in the Trib. Praise the Lord! Those are never Christians who entered the Trib.

Matthew 25:6 and 10 and 31-34 and 41&46
6 At midnight (at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.
10 - The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage-Revelation 19:5-8-: and the door was shut.


31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels-Luke 20:35-36- with Him, then shall He sit upon the Throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS: and He shall SEPARATE them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King-JESUS- say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom(Revelation 11:15-18) prepared for you from the foundation of the world: -->JESUS said: Matthew 5:5- Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed (CURSED BY MY LORD JESUS), into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his MESSENGERS:
46 These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Get ready

 

[Apple Sky]

We believers will not enter the Trib. After the rapture, only unbelievers, "those who dwell on the earth," will be left behind.

I reckon you've been watching to many movies

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I reckon you've been watching to many movies

If that's all you can say, I reckon have no way to prove Jesus wrong in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial." What does that mean?

 

[Oseas]

"We" are "you" and unbelievers are "those" in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

We believers will not enter the Trib. After the rapture, only unbelievers, "those who dwell on the earth," will be left behind.

In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" are unbelievers. Many become new converts by the hard work of the 144k and the 2W; most do not.

In Rev 3:10, there is no way to connect "you" with "those." "Those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, refers only to unbelievers. Here is Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Therein, you have a distinction made between new converts in the Trib (all are martyred, as the ones above) and the unbelievers who remain on Earth. This same distinction is made throughout the Trib. There are millions and millions of new converts in the Trib. Praise the Lord! Those are never Christians who entered the Trib.

Revelation 13:5-9
4 And they (the world as a whole) (will) worship(ped) the dragon which gave power unto the Beast: (to the MAN Beast of sea, a Gentile Beast) and they (will) worship(ped) the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make war with him?-->Michael is and who are with him)

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him(unto the Gentile MAN Beast of sea) to continue forty and two months.-->Revelation 11:2-->2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against GOD, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8. Heaven is not the physical space of Universe, but a celestial or heavenly environment established by GOD here on earth).

7 And it was given unto him (unto the Gentile Beast of sea) to make war WITH THE SAINTS (with THE TRUE BELIEVERS), and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (worshipp the Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

10 Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


Revelation 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb(a false lamb, a false messiah-John 5:43-47, an esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist messiah->a Jewish Beast-2Thes.2) and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first (MAN)Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first Beast(the MAN Beast of sea) whose deadly wound was healed.

There will be TWO terrible and satanic Beasts on the earth from now on, as soon as be elected the next and LAST Pope, it is not so far to happen, and the last 7 years of the satanic world of Devil starts.

Revelation 21:8-9 ->8 But the fearful(the COWARDS),and all liars,and unbelieving,and the abominable,and murderers, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and idolaters, they shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Get ready

 

[Oseas]

If that's all you can say, I reckon have no way to prove Jesus wrong in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial." What does that mean?

Unto them on the left hand of my Lord JESUS, the punishment is already established by His Word: Depart from me, ye cursed (CURSED BY MY LORD JESUS), into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his MESSENGERS:-->Revelation 12:7
46 These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

By the way, the Devil, the MAN of sin, was CURSED by my Lord GOD in the beginning-Genesis 3:14-15, and now, even now, from now on, also is already CURSED by JESUS all them at His left hand.

 

[Oseas]

If that's all you can say, I reckon have no way to prove Jesus wrong in Rev 3:10: "I will keep you from the hour of trial." What does that mean?

GOD the Father said by Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: HIDE THYSELF as it were for a little moment(the last 7 years of the Devil's world),until the indignation (indignation of my GOD) be overpast. -> Proverbs 22:3- A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself,--^Psalms 91 will LITERALLY be fulfilled.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity (this will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on-Revelation 11:18): the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

"We" are "you" and unbelievers are "those" in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

We believers will not enter the Trib. After the rapture, only unbelievers, "those who dwell on the earth," will be left behind.

In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" are unbelievers. Many become new converts by the hard work of the 144k and the 2W; most do not.

In Rev 3:10, there is no way to connect "you" with "those." "Those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, refers only to unbelievers. Here is Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Therein, you have a distinction made between new converts in the Trib (all are martyred, as the ones above) and the unbelievers who remain on Earth. This same distinction is made throughout the Trib. There are millions and millions of new converts in the Trib. Praise the Lord! Those are never Christians who entered the Trib.

And your position seems to be utterly blind when it comes to the tempter operating in anyone

go figure