Mariolatry?

[Jipsah]

We should shun all forms of idolatry

Yeah, w should. Itr'sa when you decide that everything that the other guy does is idolatrous that things get stupid.

I had a co-worker who decided that Korean Christians were all crypto pagans because she'd been to a Korean church and discovered to her horror that we "bowed down" in front of the altar,and when the Cross passed, and to the priest. It was all just nightmarish to her to see what a bunch of heathens they were, "bowing down" to mere humans, and even to images! (behind the altar) and the ghastly crucifix, and even the priest! (The fact that we bowed to each other as well didn't seem to signify). We Koreans were just unreconstructed foreign heathens, following our own barbarous, and probably diabolical, customs. The idea that bowing is simply an accepted gesture of respect in our culture was one she refused to consider. It was simply bad.

 

[Jipsah]

Rev 12 does not identify the woman with the crown as Mary, Queen of Heaven. It could be interpreted to be Eve

Eve of apple-chomping fame, right? Yeeeeeeah, no.

or Israel.

Ain't seeing that one, either.

Even if it was Mary, she did not have a crown of 12 stars, nor was she called Queen of Heaven.

She was called the God Bearer, because, well, she was. So she certainly gets props far that. i think it's pretty stupid to consider the Mother of God to be Just Like The Rest Of Us. I guess the Incarnation was No Big Deal, either. (And actually, I have heard that position defended as well. The idea that God could transform Himself into a Welsh Corgi or a potted plant if it suited Him, so taking on human form wasn't any big deal. And these folks consider themselves far better Christians than "idolaters" who reckon Jesus was more than just a body that God put on for awhile.)

And she did not rule over the whole earth. This is pure paganism.

Yeah. And we bow down, too.

We should shun all forms of idolatry, including human worship.

\We might wanna shun making unjust accusations aganst our brethren, as well.

Only Christ was divine and could be offered this kind of veneration.

Lest we become heathens like them Korean Anglicans. <Laugh>

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So the only requirement your church states to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is belief in Jesus. Plus that the born again child of God can never become un-born again because of anything they do in their earthly life. No sin can cause them to lose their Eternal life salvation.​

Plus there is the added teaching your church teaches about Mary that she did not die but was taken up. That she was sinless, she remained a virgin her whole life. The list goes on and on of areas your church teaches that i do not believe.

There is no requirement to receive grace, absolutely none. You ought to stop right there and reconsider your attacks on Catholicism.

So saying i do not have the same beliefs about Biblical theology as catholics, is attacking catholicism.​

Consider viewing your posts from a Catholic perspective. They seem to criticize Catholicism for its doctrines and practices. For instance, it's akin to a Catholic writing a post that claims, "The sole requirement your denomination declares for receiving grace is faith in Jesus Christ and being born again, suggesting these are the marks of a true Christian who is eternally secure in salvation, regardless of any heinous acts or denial of Christ. Additionally, your denomination asserts that Mary had multiple children, was a sinner, and should not be venerated as she is no different from any other believer." Such a statement might be perceived by a Protestant as an anti-Protestant exaggeration. Similarly, when I read your post, I perceived misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine and an overstated focus on devotional practices as if they were central dogmas of the Catholic Church. This is not accurate; it is an exaggeration and misinformation.

 

[Lukaris]

There is also a deeply inspirational relationship between the martyrdom of the mother, her 7 sons, & Eleazar the priest from chapter 7 of 2nd Maccabees and the Virgin Mary. The account of Chanukah is recorded in chapter 10 of 2nd Maccabees.

The Lord’s Nativity ( or Christmas) is the fulfillment of Chanukah. It is no coincidence that the Satanic forces that murdered such blessed martyrs failed to murder Joseph, Mary, & the infant Jesus Christ also martyred the holy innocents ( Matthew 2:16-18). It is no coincidence that the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled Chanukah ( John 10:22-23) as the Good Shepherd in the overall context of John 10. This is the shepherd prophesied by the prophet Ezekiel ( Ezekiel 34).

Blessed Among Women

We have heard of heroine stories of such mothers, especially when faced with religious persecution.

themiscellany.org

 

[Lost4words]

What it really tells me is that you don't care what you do as long as it's Catholic tradition.

I rest my case! Your post proves my point!

 

[d taylor]

Consider viewing your posts from a Catholic perspective. They seem to criticize Catholicism for its doctrines and practices. For instance, it's akin to a Catholic writing a post that claims, "The sole requirement your denomination declares for receiving grace is faith in Jesus Christ and being born again, suggesting these are the marks of a true Christian who is eternally secure in salvation, regardless of any heinous acts or denial of Christ. Additionally, your denomination asserts that Mary had multiple children, was a sinner, and should not be venerated as she is no different from any other believer." Such a statement might be perceived by a Protestant as an anti-Protestant exaggeration. Similarly, when I read your post, I perceived misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine and an overstated focus on devotional practices as if they were central dogmas of the Catholic Church. This is not accurate; it is an exaggeration and misinformation.

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So if i am stating misinformation about the catholic church you can end it now. Like i said i am free grace and believe the only requirement God requires to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a permanent born again child of God is to believe in Jesus.

Is that what your church teaches and believes.

And if your church does not believe this about how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. In which i do and you think because i believe this, i am believing exaggerations and misinformation about the catholic church, so be it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

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So if i am stating misinformation about the catholic church you can end it now. Like i said i am free grace and believe the only requirement God requires to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation and become a permanent born again child of God is to believe in Jesus.

Is that what your church teaches and believes.

And if your church does not believe this about how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. In which i do and you think because i believe this, i am believing exaggerations and misinformation about the catholic church, so be it.

Let’s explore the Catholic perspective on receiving God’s gift of eternal life.

The Catholic Church teaches that eternal life is a gift from God, but it is not merely a “ticket to heaven.” Here are some key points:

1. Eternal Life as a Gift: Jesus gave “eternal life” to those who were given to Him by the Father. This gift is not just about securing a place in heaven after death; it’s about knowing God personally and accepting Jesus in this life 1.
2. Belief and Eternal Life: Believing in Jesus is essential for receiving eternal life. John 5:24 states, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life; he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.” So, belief is crucial, but it’s not the only aspect 2.
3. Ongoing Faith: While belief is necessary, the New Testament also acknowledges that believers can fall away from faith. For example, some may “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). Thus, eternal life is not guaranteed solely by an initial act of belief; ongoing faith matters 2.
4. Grace and Merit: The Catholic understanding of grace aligns with the Bible’s teaching. Grace is a free gift from God, not earned through merit, obedience, or good works. However, the Church recognizes that eternal life is a reward—a promise from God—though not strictly based on our merits 3 4.

 

[Grip Docility]

I really hate to zero in on something that is so central to the Catholic Faith, but as a life-long Protestant I have to address this. Catholic Christians are my "brothers and sisters," just as any Christian would be my "brother or sister." And I'm concerned that Catholic Tradition is getting in the way of our unified fellowship by promoting a form of idolatry.

We do not worship Mary, I think we can all agree? But viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

I find it difficult to read posts by Catholics who continually do so in reference to "our Lady," as if she is a demi-god. I'm realistic and don't expect many Catholics to up and change their ways. They would have to leave Catholicism entirely, perhaps?

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition. Scriptural truth seems designed by God to keep excessive Christian tradition in check.

Only one woman nursed God at her bosom. Only one woman kissed Christ's boo boos. Only one woman changed God's baby garments. God has a Mommy.

There is one Latin Catholic Church and there are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. This denotes 1 Roman Church and 23 branches.

There are 30,000 protestant branches and divisions.

Mary is the very blessed mother of God. God chose her from the lineage of Eve all the way to her. Perhaps those that "Protest" against fellow believers in Jesus Christ could learn some deeper theological truths if they read scripture accordingly. Mary is, after all, the very face of the Body of Christ, being the literal womb and DNA that Immanuel became flesh, through. She is the first of the "Body", of which Jesus Christ is the Head.

- Grip

 

[d taylor]

Only one woman nursed God at her bosom. Only one woman kissed Christ's boo boos. Only one woman changed God's baby garments. God has a Mommy.

There is one Latin Catholic Church and there are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. This denotes 1 Roman Church and 23 branches.

There are 30,000 protestant branches and divisions.

Mary is the very blessed mother of God. God chose her from the lineage of Eve to the her. Perhaps those that "Protest" against fellow believers in Jesus Christ could learn some deeper theological truths if they read scripture accordingly. Mary is, after all, the very face of the Body of Christ, being the literal womb and DNA that Immanuel became flesh, through. She is the first of the "Body", of which Jesus Christ is the Head.

- Grip

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​

Now you are using the word God . So are you saying that in this child that Mary gave birth to was also The Father and The Holy spirit.

Because when i read or hear the word God used. Unless it is indicated like God the Son, God The Father , God The Spirit. When just God is used, i am thinking the person is referring to all three Persons of The Trinity by just using God by itself.

 

[Grip Docility]

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Now you are using the word God . So are you saying that in this child that Mary gave birth to was also The Father and The Holy spirit.

Because when i read or hear the word God used. Unless it is indicated like God the Son, God The Father , God The Spirit. When just God is used, i am thinking the person is referring to all three Persons of The Trinity by just using God by itself.

I apologize. I assumed that by speaking of God being born and Immanuel that God the Son was implied. Forgive my lack of specificity.

Gratitude for your correction.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sibling who is In Him.

 

[RandyPNW]

Only one woman nursed God at her bosom. Only one woman kissed Christ's boo boos. Only one woman changed God's baby garments. God has a Mommy.

There is one Latin Catholic Church and there are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. This denotes 1 Roman Church and 23 branches.

There are 30,000 protestant branches and divisions.

Mary is the very blessed mother of God. God chose her from the lineage of Eve all the way to her. Perhaps those that "Protest" against fellow believers in Jesus Christ could learn some deeper theological truths if they read scripture accordingly. Mary is, after all, the very face of the Body of Christ, being the literal womb and DNA that Immanuel became flesh, through. She is the first of the "Body", of which Jesus Christ is the Head.

- Grip

Your use of the term "Mother of God" is a blatant form of Mariolatry. I've already explained all of this in this thread. The title "Mother of God" was never intended to be applied in the sense that Greek mythology would describe it, as a goddess producing a god.

So you extend this idea of "Mother of God" to depict Mary as far above who she was and is as just one of billions of God's people. We are nothing as human beings. God is everything. Only Christ was the true demi-god, our Lord and Savior, and Head over the Body.

The many divisions in the Church are not necessarily schisms, although men would make them so. Just as many children in a family do not represent "divisions," so many denominations do not represent divisions necessarily. God had every intention of having not just one body with many members, but also many sons and daughters. God determined to have not just one Kingdom, but also many nations.

And so, there are intentionally many nations, and not just one. God's one Kingdom allows for great diversity and great numbers. This is Bible.

 

[RandyPNW]

I rest my case! Your post proves my point!

I have no clue what point you think you've proven? We must allow Scripture to correct any abuses we allow to arise in our traditions. That's my point. We must not deify Mary. She was no better than you or me, if we are walking in Christ.

 

[Grip Docility]

Your use of the term "Mother of God" is a blatant form of Mariolatry. I've already explained all of this in this thread. The title "Mother of God" was never intended to be applied in the sense that Greek mythology would describe it, as a goddess producing a god.

So you extend this idea of "Mother of God" to depict Mary as far above who she was and is as just one of billions of God's people. We are nothing as human beings. God is everything. Only Christ was the true demi-god, our Lord and Savior, and Head over the Body.

The many divisions in the Church are not necessarily schisms, although men would make them so. Just as many children in a family do not represent "divisions," so many denominations do not represent divisions necessarily. God had every intention of having not just one body with many members, but also many sons and daughters. God determined to have not just one Kingdom, but also many nations.

And so, there are intentionally many nations, and not just one. God's one Kingdom allows for great diversity and great numbers. This is Bible.

Jesus is God. Immanuel means God with us. Mary was the Mother of Jesus.

Do you believe that the Son of God is in the Father as surely as the Father is in Him? John 14:11

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Your use of the term "Mother of God" is a blatant form of Mariolatry. I've already explained all of this in this thread. The title "Mother of God" was never intended to be applied in the sense that Greek mythology would describe it, as a goddess producing a god.

So you extend this idea of "Mother of God" to depict Mary as far above who she was and is as just one of billions of God's people. We are nothing as human beings. God is everything. Only Christ was the true demi-god, our Lord and Savior, and Head over the Body.

The many divisions in the Church are not necessarily schisms, although men would make them so. Just as many children in a family do not represent "divisions," so many denominations do not represent divisions necessarily. God had every intention of having not just one body with many members, but also many sons and daughters. God determined to have not just one Kingdom, but also many nations.

And so, there are intentionally many nations, and not just one. God's one Kingdom allows for great diversity and great numbers. This is Bible.

If only you would check and test your claims against what the Church really does teach. God willing, you will. May God grant access to a clear catechism and accurate explanations of any and every difficult matter to all who seek it from him.

 

[Grip Docility]

Your use of the term "Mother of God" is a blatant form of Mariolatry.

Matthew 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Mary, the Virgin, gave birth to Immanuel, (which means "God with us"). What word do you denote to a woman who gives birth to a child? What, exactly, does this passage from Matthew chapter 1 mean by not only specifying "God with us", but that Mary would be giving birth to "God with us"?​

 

[RandyPNW]

If only you would check and test your claims against what the Church really does teach. God willing, you will. May God grant access to a clear catechism and accurate explanations of any and every difficult matter to all who seek it from him.

I have Catholic friends and have participated in a Catholic Mass. I support the Catholic Church--its existence and its fellowship. Some things need to be fixed but likely will not be since most Catholics feel that any problem raised is hate for the Catholic Church. That's unfortunate, but I need to speak my conscience, whether the message is received or not.

 

[RandyPNW]

Matthew 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Mary, the Virgin, gave birth to Immanuel, (which means "God with us"). What word do you denote to a woman who gives birth to a child? What, exactly, does this passage from Matthew chapter 1 mean by not only specifying "God with us", but that Mary would be giving birth to "God with us"?​

This is very simple to understand, but not simple for those who do not wish to understand the argument. God Himself does not have either a father or a mother. He is eternally existent without cause--the uncaused Cause.

Mary gave birth to a man-God--not to God. She did not do it of her own works since she was a virgin. She could not produce a sinless man-God. But she was used as the vehicle for his birth.

That means Mary was blessed to be used of God, but in no way was necessary to produce God Himself. Comprendes?

 

[d taylor]

Jesus is God. Immanuel means God with us. Mary was the Mother of Jesus.

Do you believe that the Son of God is in the Father as surely as the Father is in Him? John 14:11

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Jesus and The Father are in each other, meaning they are part of what makes up the whole of God, That would also include The Holy Spirit. But Jesus is not The Father nor The Spirit and the same for the other members of The Trinity.

So Mary gave birth to The Son in the flesh. But The Son existed along with The Father and The Holy Spirit and were never not in existence and were never created.

 

[d taylor]

Let’s explore the Catholic perspective on receiving God’s gift of eternal life.

The Catholic Church teaches that eternal life is a gift from God, but it is not merely a “ticket to heaven.” Here are some key points:

1. Eternal Life as a Gift: Jesus gave “eternal life” to those who were given to Him by the Father. This gift is not just about securing a place in heaven after death; it’s about knowing God personally and accepting Jesus in this life 1.
2. Belief and Eternal Life: Believing in Jesus is essential for receiving eternal life. John 5:24 states, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life; he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.” So, belief is crucial, but it’s not the only aspect 2.
3. Ongoing Faith: While belief is necessary, the New Testament also acknowledges that believers can fall away from faith. For example, some may “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). Thus, eternal life is not guaranteed solely by an initial act of belief; ongoing faith matters 2.
4. Grace and Merit: The Catholic understanding of grace aligns with the Bible’s teaching. Grace is a free gift from God, not earned through merit, obedience, or good works. However, the Church recognizes that eternal life is a reward—a promise from God—though not strictly based on our merits 3 4.

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​

Falling away from faith is not the same as becoming un-born and no longer being a child of God. Once a child of God, a born again believer can never cease being a child of God. They may become a disobedient faithless child, but still they are a child.

 

[Grip Docility]

This is very simple to understand, but not simple for those who do not wish to understand the argument. God Himself does not have either a father or a mother. He is eternally existent without cause--the uncaused Cause.

In the Beginning was the Word (Logos, Son). The Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became SARX.

Saying that God doesn't have a "Mother or Father" is a specific statement that denies that The Son, indeed is the product of the immaculate conception which bound Creator to Creation, by Will of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, through the very Genetic Womb of Mary, through the workings of the very Holy Spirit of God.

God the Son, indeed has a FATHER. He has never not been the SON of God, nor has He ever not been. We knew the Son as the Theophany, before we knew Him as The Son, yet he became the ONLY Begotten Son of God through Mary, who indeed is His mother.

I implore you to find one post where I suggest that the Father, Son or Holy Spirit have ever not existed. You wont find it. Saying that the Father, Son relationship is not "Co-Eternal" and infinite in nature is actually a violation of the earliest Creeds.

*Side note, the double negatives almost killed me. I had to remove one letter. Mine field verbiage!

Mary gave birth to a man-God--not to God. She did not do it of her own works since she was a virgin. She could not produce a sinless man-God. But she was used as the vehicle for his birth.

Um, God meticulously tended His blood line from Eve to Mary. Onan and his brother can testify of this, though they aren't here to do so, because they were smited by the Almighty for tampering with Divine DNA. The actual binding of God to Flesh, through the Son is not only one of the most imperative parts of the Gospel, but to marginalize this TRUTH in any fashion is a form of Heresy known as Semi-Arianism.

man-God, God-man... ?!?

Immanuel means GOD with us. Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake when impressing this concept upon the Author's of scripture?

Son of God? Yes
Son of Man? Yes
God become Flesh? Yes

Theological Subordination of the Divinity of the Son? Not from me.

That means Mary was blessed to be used of God, but in no way was necessary to produce God Himself. Comprendes?

No Comprender

Mary was the literal MOTHER of The Very MAN that said; "If you have seen ME, then you have SEEN the Father", yet no man has ever seen THE FATHER.

Jesus, The Son of God is the Physical Union of the Immaculate Conception between the Creation and THE Creator. Bloodline wasn't given from Genesis to the Gospels for no reason. "God with us" God became Man. The Physical Presence of God that was known as the Theophany in the OT, became SARX... Period.

Comprender?