Mariolatry?

[Grip Docility]

-Jesus and The Father are in each other,​

Agree. THE HOLY SPIRIT is in the Father and the Son and by the work of God, is now within us.

meaning they are part of what makes up the whole of God,​

This is also called the Godhead.

That would also include The Holy Spirit.​

True

But Jesus is not The Father nor The Spirit​

True. The Son is not the Father, nor is the Father the Son, nor the Spirit the Son or the Father.

and the same for the other members of The Trinity.​

Right, Hear Oh Israel, the Lord you God is ONE (UNE), yet These Three testify.

So Mary gave birth to The Son in the flesh.

Right, God the Son, the very physical presence of YHWH that we see from Genesis to the Gospels, BECAME FLESH.

But The Son existed along with The Father and The Holy Spirit

John 1 agrees and so do I.

and were never not in existence and were never created.

True.

And.... God with us has a very specific Mother, because God became Flesh.

 

[d taylor]

Agree. THE HOLY SPIRIT is in the Father and the Son and by the work of God, is now within us.

This is also called the Godhead.

True

True. The Son is not the Father, nor is the Father the Son, nor the Spirit the Son or the Father.

Right, Hear Oh Israel, the Lord you God is ONE (UNE), yet These Three testify.

Right, God the Son, the very physical presence of YHWH that we see from Genesis to the Gospels, BECAME FLESH.

John 1 agrees and so do I.

True.

And.... God with us has a very specific Mother, because God became Flesh.

-

​

The Son became flesh, The Father or The Spirit did not become flash. So Mary gave birth to The Son.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

-

​

The Son became flesh, The Father or The Spirit did not become flash. So Mary gave birth to The Son.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be divided.

 

[Grip Docility]

-

​

The Son became flesh, The Father or The Spirit did not become flash. So Mary gave birth to The Son.

Correct. Mary, the very chosen Mother of God, by God, Gave birth to GOD The Son. This makes Mary the Biological Mother of God The Son.

 

[Grip Docility]

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be divided.

You're about to give some of these folks a Theological aneurism!

Perhaps a bit of Tri-Theism can be beaten out of some of the dialogue that is found here.

 

[d taylor]

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be divided.

-
​

Why was Jesus the only one in heaven who could open and read the scroll, or to look at it. Why was God The Father not able to do this or The Spirit.

And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.

 

[Grip Docility]

-
​

Why was Jesus the only one in heaven who could open and read the scroll, or to look at it. Why was God The Father not able to do this or The Spirit.

And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.

D taylor,

Before this goes off the rails, do you Believe this statement?

"Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is One"

Spoiler

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; Consubstantial; "of the same substance or essence"
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic (Universal Invisible Body of Jesus Christ) and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You're about to give some of these folks a Theological aneurism!

Perhaps a bit of Tri-Theism can be beaten out of some of the dialogue that is found here.

We all so often try to fit God into our heads. And then argue that the god in my head is better than the god in your head,
Yes, Tri-theism, Modalism, etc. This is where the value of Church tradition and teaching is to important.
And yet it is shunned by those who think they can reinvent it better on their own only with the Bible as their guide.
Result: hundreds of fragmented Christians.

 

[d taylor]

D taylor,

Before this goes off the rails, do you Believe this statement?

"Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is One"

Spoiler

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; Consubstantial; "of the same substance or essence"
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic (Universal Invisible Body of Jesus Christ) and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

-

​

There is one God that exist as a Triune Being

 

[d taylor]

D taylor,

Before this goes off the rails, do you Believe this statement?

"Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is One"

Spoiler

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; Consubstantial; "of the same substance or essence"
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic (Universal Invisible Body of Jesus Christ) and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

-
​

So why was Jesus the only member of The Trinity to be able to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.

 

[Grip Docility]

We all so often try to fit God into our heads. And then argue that the god in my head is better than the god in your head,
Yes, Tri-theism, Modalism, etc. This is where the value of Church tradition and teaching is to important.
And yet it is shunned by those who think they can reinvent it better on their own only with the Bible as their guide.
Result: hundreds of fragmented Christians.

In fairness, the defense against Arius led to so much over distinction of the Tri aspect of our Tri-Une God, that many were led to a sort of Tri-Theism.

Gnosticism that crept in and deemed the Sarx (Satanic) led to the duplicitous Soul concept of Jesus Christ which rests in over 60 percent of much of Protestantism.

Modalism is almost better in misunderstanding, until it comes time to understand the critical nature of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the most intimate part of the mechanism we call the Gospel.

Scripture holds the truth, but the fractured doctrines of men have made everything so complex that Christians are led to believe that one needs a PhD in Astro Physics to truly understand the actual meaning of the word Triunity or Trinity.

 

[Grip Docility]

-

​

There is one God that exist as a Triune Being

Bingo

 

[Grip Docility]

-
​

So why was Jesus the only member of The Trinity to be able to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.

I have the answer to this, but ask you a very important question to lead you to this answer.

What is the "Highest" name of all Names, according to Philippians 2:9,10,11 and how is this important in doctrine?

 

[Valletta]

Rom 3.23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Luke 1.47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.

Since Mary admitted she needed a Savior, she obviously counted herself among those who have sinned.

Rev 12 does not identify the woman with the crown as Mary, Queen of Heaven. It could be interpreted to be Eve or Israel. Even if it was Mary, she did not have a crown of 12 stars, nor was she called Queen of Heaven. And she did not rule over the whole earth. This is pure paganism.

That's absurd. What matters is that we are saints. We are all essential part of a single body, belonging to Christ. Christ is the most important part, the head. We are all equally subservient to him.

No, to state that Mary is supreme in God's Kingdom is suggesting a form of Mariolatry--the worship of Mary, or the veneration of her sinlessness and demi-god status. Your reverence of her is a kind of worship.

We should shun all forms of idolatry, including human worship. Only Christ was divine and could be offered this kind of veneration.

Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies or Mary or those with severe mental disabilities sinned. Thus obviously you are misinterpreting Romans by trying to say it means any of the aforementioned must have sinned. Likewise your conclusion that because Mary needed a savior means she sinned is false. Mary is a queen according to the Word of God. To believe she is less than previous queens in the Davidic kingdom is an insult. If you refer to her as the Holy Queen instead of the Queen of Heaven I have no problem with that. But since you're back to the name-calling about those who don't have your exact interpretation of the Word of God (don't you think "pure paganism" is a bit much?) let me ask, in what kingdom is she queen? To pay someone respect or veneration is not idolatry, there is a statue of Abraham Lincoln and those involved in visiting it are not all idolators. Nor are those who respect their elders idolators. A deep understanding of the Word of God shows how important Mary's role was in salvation history, and that God works through others. God did not NEED the Apostles or saints or angels or the Bible to work through, but God chose those means. Respect them, and take advantage of them. Ask your brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for you and the rest of us.

 

[d taylor]

I have the answer to this, but ask you a very important question to lead you to this answer.

What is the "Highest" name of all Names, according to Philippians 2:9,10,11 and how is this important in doctrine?

-
​

But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

The word prevailed is the Greek word enikesen and is from the same word used in Rev 2-3 Chaps, to describe the victorious believers who earn the title of overcomer and thereby reign eternally with Christ (Rev 3:21). The implication is that because Jesus was perfectly faithful to God in His role as Messiah. He, Jesus is the ultimate Overcomer and therefore only He Jesus has earned the right open and read the scroll, or to look at it. That is to be the Executor of God's judgments.

 

[Grip Docility]

-
​

But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

The word prevailed is the Greek word enikesen and is from the same word used in Rev 2-3 Chaps, to describe the victorious believers who earn the title of overcomer and thereby reign eternally with Christ (Rev 3:21). The implication is that because Jesus was perfectly faithful to God in His role as Messiah. He, Jesus is the ultimate Overcomer and therefore only He Jesus has earned the right open and read the scroll, or to look at it. That is to be the Executor of God's judgments.

Yet, the very name YHWH is encapsulated within YeHOshua. Per Isaiah; God says; I alone am your Savior. Jesus is the very “Glory” (Shakina Glory visible within the Tabernacle) of the Father. He is the very effulgence of the Father.

Does it make since why I say this?

 

[d taylor]

Yet, the very name YHWH is encapsulated within YeHOshua. Per Isaiah; God says; I alone am your Savior. Jesus is the very “Glory” (Shakina Glory visible within the Tabernacle) of the Father. He is the very effulgence of the Father.

Does it make since why I say this?

-
​

Jesus is the visible part of The Trinity, He walked in the garden looking for Adam, He spoke and talked to Moses, etc...

 

[Valletta]

Your use of the term "Mother of God" is a blatant form of Mariolatry. I've already explained all of this in this thread. The title "Mother of God" was never intended to be applied in the sense that Greek mythology would describe it, as a goddess producing a god.

So you extend this idea of "Mother of God" to depict Mary as far above who she was and is as just one of billions of God's people. We are nothing as human beings. God is everything. Only Christ was the true demi-god, our Lord and Savior, and Head over the Body.

The many divisions in the Church are not necessarily schisms, although men would make them so. Just as many children in a family do not represent "divisions," so many denominations do not represent divisions necessarily. God had every intention of having not just one body with many members, but also many sons and daughters. God determined to have not just one Kingdom, but also many nations.

And so, there are intentionally many nations, and not just one. God's one Kingdom allows for great diversity and great numbers. This is Bible.

​

Luke 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? RSVCE

As has been pointed out to you, "my Lord" is a reference to God. Elizabeth did not say "mother of Jesus," she said "mother of my Lord."
Study the Old Testament. This is a reference to God. You have objection to the Word of God, of which God is the ultimate author, your beef is really with God instead of the Catholics on this thread. Try not to get hung up on titles, that is not the message of the Bible.

 

[Lost4words]

I have no clue what point you think you've proven? We must allow Scripture to correct any abuses we allow to arise in our traditions. That's my point. We must not deify Mary. She was no better than you or me, if we are walking in Christ.

You prove my point yet again my friend!!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I need to speak my conscience, whether the message is received or not.

Every Christian is under obligation to live a life of good conscience educated by the teaching of Christ. For this reason, you are not asked to go against conscience.

Referring to the first post in this thread where you state the following:

We do not worship Mary, I think we can all agree? But viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

One may question why it would be deemed inappropriate to refer to the Blessed Mary as the Queen of Heaven, especially in light of what the Apostle John describes in the Apocalypse:

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. (Revelation 11:19-12:2 NRSV)​

Catholic Christians believe this woman, adorned with a crown of twelve stars, clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet, to be the mother of our Savior, Jesus Christ. This depiction, with its regal attire and crown, befits a queen. Therefore, what other title might Christians bestow upon her but Queen of Heaven, the mother of the King of Kings, Jesus our Lord? As His mother, she holds the position of Queen Mother of the King of Kings.

Praying to Blessed Mary, in fact, means to ask her to intercede on one's behalf, as 'pray' simply means to request. Similarly, requesting saints to intercede is not an act of worship, just as asking a fellow congregant in one's church to pray for you does not equate to worshipping them.

When Mary told the wine steward at the wedding in Cana, "Do as he says," was it for him to disregard her words? Christians heed Mary's words because they are considered good and true.