Mariolatry?

[Akita Suggagaki]

Evangelicals have to decide whether they want to maintain the purity of their anti-Catholicism or be open to historic Christianity. Maintaining the purity of their anti-Catholicism also cuts them off from Orthodoxy and traditional Christian beliefs. That may be what lots of Evangelicals want to do and that’s just fine. But since we aren’t hanging together we will be hung separately.

Being open to historic Christianity means accepting that from the beginning Christians recognized the Communion of the Saints and that we can and should all be offering prayers of intercession. The saints in heaven do this already. And that is something Christians knew until the great forgetting began about 500 years ago.

You can say Catholics are idolaters, but all that gets you is cutting yourself off from other believers. If that’s the purity you need, then fine. But a bit of historical study would show that Mary and the saints were known and loved wherever the faith spread. Purity may be important to you, but it means you pretty much have to trashcan all of Christian history to do so.

Very right on the history. And the wonderful scriptural concept of the Communion of Saints.

Romans 12:4–5 For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. ​

1 Corinthians 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.​

Veneration of, and communion with the saints has only been an issue since the reformation and the confrontation of orthodoxy with modernity. Then, all hell broke loose.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition.

And by "apostolic authority" do you also mean leadership and teaching passed in apostolic succession in the ministry of the bishops of the Church? The same Church that gave us the Bible through tradition? Yes, Catholic tradition precedes the Bible.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe the Lord conferred honor to His mother and her to be honored as our mother through the disciple St. John in John 19:25-30. She is also the virtuous woman of Revelation 12 and a symbol of the Church. For me it all comes together here since we are to worship the Lord in His Church. We do not worship the church but we should revere it since that is where we assemble to worship ( Hebrews 10:25).

 

[Valletta]

The "deification" of Mary, which is what I call it, is part of the phenomena of fallen human nature. We tend to flatter our own chosen denomination and to hero worship.

What you call it is a mischaracterization, a false judgment, of those who understand Mary's important role in salvation history. A Catholic way to approach Holy Scripture, which I highly recommend to all, is to first ask the Holy Spirit for discernment.

 

[Jipsah]

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Mary or any other person (in heaven) do not here prayers of people. Just like people do not hear prayers of other people that are praying for people on earth.

The no harm done. But read Rev 5:8 and get back to me on that.

That would require a person to be omniscient

Rev 5:8

 

[Jipsah]

There is no Bible basis for the idea of praying to someone who has died.

Rev 5:8

 

[RandyPNW]

What you call it is a mischaracterization, a false judgment, of those who understand Mary's important role in salvation history. A Catholic way to approach Holy Scripture, which I highly recommend to all, is to first ask the Holy Spirit for discernment.

If it walks like a duck, it is, in fact, a duck. The "Queen of Heaven" is but a pauper in God's Kingdom with respect to earning our Salvation. Certainly she is not given the role of "Savior" by Catholics. But praying to her is not my imagination.

 

[RandyPNW]

And by "apostolic authority" do you also mean leadership and teaching passed in apostolic succession in the ministry of the bishops of the Church? The same Church that gave us the Bible through tradition? Yes, Catholic tradition precedes the Bible.

I don't have a problem with the evolution of the Church into patriarchates. Claiming to be King over all other patriarchates is where Catholicism got off track. Secular rulers have precedence politically. Religious leaders are not political leaders.

The Popes certainly did not all claim to be political leaders. But they certainly delved into political manipulation, which I don't think could be justified.

By "apostolic authority" I'm referring to the training of leaders by Jesus, specifically the 12, and later, by revelation, Paul. There were other apostles, who obtained sufficient knowledge to wield divine authority responsibly. Certainly Catholic leaders were at times responsible leaders.

But the Scriptures were paramount, I think, in the development of the "foundation" of Christian truth. It was the responsibility of the original apostles to build this foundation, and they did. Future generations must not go beyond this "foundation."

 

[Valletta]

Do you find any place in scripture where someone prays to a person that has died?

We pray to Jesus anyways.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rev 5:8

It is heartening to see a devout Anglican advocate for the appropriateness of praying to the saints, and particularly through Saint Mary, the Blessed Mother of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What you call it is a mischaracterization, a false judgment, of those who understand Mary's important role in salvation history. A Catholic way to approach Holy Scripture, which I highly recommend to all, is to first ask the Holy Spirit for discernment.

Bless every faithful Lutheran who knows and defends the rightful veneration of Blessed Mary as mother of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We pray to Jesus anyways.

Amen, we offer prayers to the Lord, Jesus Christ, who suffered death and was resurrected, and now resides at the right hand of the Father, exalted in the heavens.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, is depicted in Revelation 12 as the woman adorned with a crown of twelve stars, clothed with the sun, and with her feet upon the moon.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven. And the Ark of his Testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars. And being with child, she cried out while giving birth, and she was suffering in order to give birth.​

(Revelation 11:19-12:2)
The prayers of the saints are offered to God by an angel, as depicted in the biblical passages Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4.

And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb was standing, as if it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent forth to all the earth. And he approached and received the book from the right hand of the One sitting upon the throne. And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments, as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints. And they were singing a new canticle, saying: "O Lord, you are worthy to receive the book and to open its seals, because you were slain and have redeemed us for God, by your blood, from every tribe and language and people and nation. And you have made us into a kingdom and into priests for our God, and we shall reign over the earth." And I saw, and I heard the voice of many Angels surrounding the throne and the living creatures and the elders, (and their number was thousands of thousands) saying with a great voice: "The Lamb who was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." And every creature that is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and all that is within the sea: I heard them all saying: "To the One sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing, and honor, and glory, and authority, forever and ever." And the four living creatures were saying, "Amen." And the twenty-four elders fell down on their faces, and they adored the One who lives forever and ever.​

(Revelation 5:6-14)

And another Angel approached, and he stood before the altar, holding a golden censer. And much incense was given to him, so that he might offer upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God, the prayers of all the saints. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended, in the presence of God, from the hand of the Angel.​

(Revelation 8:3-4)

Should there be any objection to the notion that the souls of the martyrs, who are indeed saints, do not pray, one should refer to Revelation 6.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw, under the altar, the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony that they held. And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Holy and True Lord, will you not judge and not vindicate our blood against those who dwell upon the earth?" And white robes were given to each of them. And they were told that they should rest for a brief time, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who were to be slain even as they were slain, would be completed.​

(Revelation 6:9-11)

All these verses have been cited before, all have been quoted before. Yet, we still witness people accusing devout Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutheran Christians of idolatry because they pray to or through the saints to the Lord our God. How sad it is to witness. May God have mercy on the accusers.

 

[d taylor]

The no harm done. But read Rev 5:8 and get back to me on that.

Rev 5:8

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​

Nothing to get back to you about. Whatever you are trying to make this verse say by singling it out of its context. Does not even come close to saying, people on earth are praying to Mary and she is able to hear all their prayers because she is all hearing and omniscient.

Actually this verse is part of chapter 5, verses 8 thru 14 which concludes with a description of the worship of The Lion/Lamb, who is the One found worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

By "apostolic authority" I'm referring to the training of leaders by Jesus, specifically the 12, and later, by revelation, Paul.

Our foundation.

There were other apostles, who obtained sufficient knowledge to wield divine authority responsibly. Certainly Catholic leaders were at times responsible leaders.

Authors of the other books in the New Testament?

But the Scriptures were paramount, I think, in the development of the "foundation" of Christian truth. It was the responsibility of the original apostles to build this foundation, and they did. Future generations must not go beyond this "foundation."

This is where we seem to part ways. the apostolic foundation was more than scripture. In fact, scripture came from tradition. With just scripture many controversies arose in the early church. Councils, creeds and catechism were needed.

 

[RandyPNW]

Our foundation.

Authors of the other books in the New Testament?

This is where we seem to part ways. the apostolic foundation was more than scripture. In fact, scripture came from tradition. With just scripture many controversies arose in the early church. Councils, creeds and catechism were needed.

I didn't deny that "other things" were part of the "foundation" built by the apostles. Certainly we are talking about laying the building blocks of Christian history and civilization.

Scripture, however, was central, just as it had been when God gave the Law under the Old Testament. Scripture kept Israel confined to things that would keep them preserved. Moving beyond the Law Israel compromised truth with God and fell.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

-

​

Nothing to get back to you about. What ever you are trying to make this verse say by singling it out of its context. Does not even come close to saying people on earth are praying to Mary and she is able to hear all their prayers because she is all hearing and omniscient.

Actually this verse is part of chapter 5, verses 8 thru 14 which concludes with a description of the worship of The Lion/Lamb, who is the One found worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

The prayers of the saints are offered to God by an angel, as depicted in the biblical passages Revelation 5:8.

And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb was standing, as if it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent forth to all the earth. And he approached and received the book from the right hand of the One sitting upon the throne. And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments, as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints. And they were singing a new canticle, saying: "O Lord, you are worthy to receive the book and to open its seals, because you were slain and have redeemed us for God, by your blood, from every tribe and language and people and nation. And you have made us into a kingdom and into priests for our God, and we shall reign over the earth." And I saw, and I heard the voice of many Angels surrounding the throne and the living creatures and the elders, (and their number was thousands of thousands) saying with a great voice: "The Lamb who was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." And every creature that is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and all that is within the sea: I heard them all saying: "To the One sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing, and honor, and glory, and authority, forever and ever." And the four living creatures were saying, "Amen." And the twenty-four elders fell down on their faces, and they adored the One who lives forever and ever.​

(Revelation 5:6-14)

 

[d taylor]

The prayers of the saints are offered to God by an angel, as depicted in the biblical passages Revelation 5:8.

And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb was standing, as if it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent forth to all the earth. And he approached and received the book from the right hand of the One sitting upon the throne. And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having stringed instruments, as well as golden bowls full of fragrances, which are the prayers of the saints. And they were singing a new canticle, saying: "O Lord, you are worthy to receive the book and to open its seals, because you were slain and have redeemed us for God, by your blood, from every tribe and language and people and nation. And you have made us into a kingdom and into priests for our God, and we shall reign over the earth." And I saw, and I heard the voice of many Angels surrounding the throne and the living creatures and the elders, (and their number was thousands of thousands) saying with a great voice: "The Lamb who was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." And every creature that is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and all that is within the sea: I heard them all saying: "To the One sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing, and honor, and glory, and authority, forever and ever." And the four living creatures were saying, "Amen." And the twenty-four elders fell down on their faces, and they adored the One who lives forever and ever.​

(Revelation 5:6-14)

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​

And you have your catholic take on Revelation 5, which i am not catholic and do not follow your theological beliefs.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I didn't deny that "other things" were part of the "foundation" built by the apostles. Certainly we are talking about laying the building blocks of Christian history and civilization.

Scripture, however, was central, just as it had been when God gave the Law under the Old Testament. Scripture kept Israel confined to things that would keep them preserved. Moving beyond the Law Israel compromised truth with God and fell.

And yet Jesus also moved "beyond the law" as a manner of fulfilling it.

Somewhere around here there is another thread on hermeneutics. That is what we are all about. how do we take scripture and define the core of our beliefs that we can preserve through the rapid and powerful changes we see in life. That process i s not found in the Bible because it interprets the Bible. So we need ecclesial tradition, teaching, authority, guidance.

Back to OP, veneration of Mary is ancient Christian tradition. Anti-Catholic critique is only a fairly recent thing in 2,000 year history. Maybe some people go overboard and don't clearly understand the distinction between veneration and worship. Most that I know have a very clear understanding and the veneration of Mary only lifts the worship of God higher.

 

[RandyPNW]

And yet Jesus also moved "beyond the law" as a manner of fulfilling it.

Yes. He did not, however, contradict it. Jesus lived under the Law but was not subject to the Law, being sinless.

The Law was a sort of "prophecy" that Christ would have to do what the Law itself could not do, which was to provide final atonement for Israel and for the world. The Law never claimed to be able to do that, but anticipated that more would be needed in the Messianic Kingdom.

Somewhere around here there is another thread on hermeneutics. That is what we are all about. how do we take scripture and define the core of our beliefs that we can preserve through the rapid and powerful changes we see in life. That process i s not found in the Bible because it interprets the Bible. So we need ecclesial tradition, teaching, authority, guidance.

I'm all for proper interpretation of the Scriptures. My point here, however, is that we need to use Scripture to prevent error in the Church.

Back to OP, veneration of Mary is ancient Christian tradition. Anti-Catholic critique is only a fairly recent thing in 2,000 year history. Maybe some people go overboard and don't clearly understand the distinction between veneration and worship. Most that I know have a very clear understanding and the veneration of Mary only lifts the worship of God higher.

In context, the kind of "veneration" I speak of is idolatrous. Praying to the "Queen of Heaven" is more akin to Greek mythology of the gods than with Hebrew tradition and history. It is certainly against the Scriptures.

A goddess begetting a god is pure mythology and hero worship. We need to clearly distance ourselves from any semblance of this. Esteem Mary blessed and that's fine. To elevate her above mankind is more like goddess-worship than "respect."

Incidentally, I don't think viewing Mary as "blessed" for having a divine baby is the same thing as Mary veneration such as we see it in modern Catholicism, which I call "Mariolatry." It has evolved from respect and appreciation to idol-worship and hero-worship.