Mariolatry?

[RandyPNW]

I really hate to zero in on something that is so central to the Catholic Faith, but as a life-long Protestant I have to address this. Catholic Christians are my "brothers and sisters," just as any Christian would be my "brother or sister." And I'm concerned that Catholic Tradition is getting in the way of our unified fellowship by promoting a form of idolatry.

We do not worship Mary, I think we can all agree? But viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

I find it difficult to read posts by Catholics who continually do so in reference to "our Lady," as if she is a demi-god. I'm realistic and don't expect many Catholics to up and change their ways. They would have to leave Catholicism entirely, perhaps?

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition. Scriptural truth seems designed by God to keep excessive Christian tradition in check.

 

[prodromos]

Do you think it is possible that because many Protestants have no experience of the depth of liturgical worship, they conflate prayer with worship?

Also, where did you get that the disciples were told not to listen to Moses and Elijah on Mt Tabor?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone.

nothing in Matt 17 says "don't listen to Moses or Elijah".
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus the moral of the story according to Christ is "if they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16.

Christ was not presenting the idea of scripture at war with itself - or scripture writers at war with each other.

Are we then to listen to Mary?

is she speaking?
Did she write scripture?

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition.

true. Even the protesting Catholics like Luther argued for the same principle.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you think it is possible that because many Protestants have no experience of the depth of liturgical worship, they conflate prayer with worship?

Do you find any place in scripture where someone prays to a person that has died?

 

[RandyPNW]

nothing in Matt 17 says "don't listen to Moses or Elijah".
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus the moral of the story according to Christ is "if they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16.

No, that passage is only speaking of the testimony of Moses to Jesus as the superior one. Here are a couple of comments by Bible Hub commentators...

Matthew 17:5 Commentaries: While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
And so the command, “Hear ye Him,” gained a new significance. Not the traditions of the elders, or the doctrines of the scribes and Pharisees, not even the teaching of Moses and Elias, of the Law and of the Prophets, but the words of the Son of Man, were henceforth to command their allegiance, and to be the guide of their faith and of their lives, for of them only it was true that the Father was revealed fully in them (Hebrews 1:1-2), and that they should never pass away (Matthew 24:35).

Benson Commentary
To show them the superiority of Christ as a teacher, lawgiver, and mediator, to Moses and Elias, who, though both eminent in their stations, were only servants, whereas this was God’s beloved Son; and, of consequence, that he was to be preferred to all that had preceded him, whether patriarchs or prophets, and therefore that the gospel was more excellent than the law, the Christian than the Jewish dispensation.

I never said my point was not to listen to Moses or Elijah. Rather, the idea is that Christ *replaced* the OT system of Law, which both Moses and Elijah represented. As I said, John 1 tells us that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ, whereas the Law came through Moses. They are not equal, even though both came from God. The Law came to bear witness to Christ, who would replace the Law with his system of Grace.

Christ was not presenting the idea of scripture at war with itself - or scripture writers at war with each other.

is she speaking?
Did she write scripture?

My point was that Catholics refer to Mary as preeminent among women. Paul, by contrast, asked "Who is Paul, but your servant?" Mary is just one person among many in the Church. She is not preeminent.

true. Even the protesting Catholics like Luther argued for the same principle.

The Catholic Reformation did not argue for the Protestant Reformation. On the contrary, it was an attempt at reestablishing Catholic supremacy. Mariolatry remained in vogue.

 

[prodromos]

Do you find any place in scripture where someone prays to a person that has died?

I see where people request the prayers of people in Christ's body, the Church.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you find any place in scripture where someone prays to a person that has died?

I see where people request the prayers of people in Christ's body, the Church.

Yes we all see that all the time - people requesting help or prayers from other people that have not died. Agreed.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Why Pray to Mary? | Catholic Answers

Non-Catholic Christians often ask why we pray to Mary when we can go directly to Jesus. Click here to see how Catholics can respond.

www.catholic.com

When we pray to Mary, we ask her to pass on ;her prayers to God, and specifically her son.

Christ performed His first miracle at her request, and He still heeds what she requests.

If you ask your fellow Christians to pray for you, then what's the problem with asking Mary, the Mother of God the Son to pray for you.

Ditto for the saints - they're doing something up there.

Why Pray to Mary and Saints if You Can Pray to Omnipresent Jesus?

Jesus exhorts us to pray not simply for ourselves, but for others, including praying for our persecutors (Matt. 5:44), because Jesus knows that intercessory prayers draw us closer together in him, and can also help foster our enemies’ conversion.

www.catholic.com

We are surrounded, according to Saint Paul, by a "great cloud of witnesses". They know what we're doing, and I think they're doing more than just sitting around on their spiritual behinds.

 

[BobRyan]

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition.

true. Even the protesting Catholics like Luther argued for the same principle

The Catholic Reformation did not argue for the Protestant Reformation.

Luther was a protesting Catholic. His initial effort was to reform the Catholic Church

On the contrary, it was an attempt at reestablishing Catholic supremacy. Mariolatry remained in vogue.

Indeed there was a "counter reformation" movement in the Catholic church where they were making changes in the church to address some of the issues that protestors like Luther had already brought to light. The idea was to stem the tide of loss of members in cases where the abuses being corrected by the earlier protesting-Catholics would be addressed before more losses occurred.

 

[BobRyan]

Why Pray to Mary? | Catholic Answers

Non-Catholic Christians often ask why we pray to Mary when we can go directly to Jesus. Click here to see how Catholics can respond.

www.catholic.com

When we pray to Mary, we ask her to pass on ;her prayers to God, and specifically her son.

Agreed . that is some of what we see today in the Catholic church.

Christ performed His first miracle at her request,

True.

If you ask your fellow Christians to pray for you, then what's the problem with asking Mary, the Mother of God the Son to pray for you.

There is no Bible basis for the idea of praying to someone who has died.

We are surrounded, according to Saint Paul, by a "great cloud of witnesses".

Agreed - Heb 12:1

They know what we're doing

That Heb 12 statement is in reference to Heb 11 - the cloud of witnesses for God. They are not witnessing us in that context - rather the text says they are giving their witness by dying for their faith in Heb 11.

 

[prodromos]

Do you find any place in scripture where someone prays to a person that has died?

Yes we all see that all the time - people requesting help or prayers from other people that have not died. Agreed.

Those who are in Christ are alive in Christ. There are no 'dead' in Christ.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Mary or any other person (in heaven) do not here prayers of people. Just like people do not hear prayers of other people that are praying for people on earth. That would require a person to be omniscient and all hearing. a person is a person after death, they do not become some supernatural being.

 

[bèlla]

Only the truth makes one free but we must be willing to hear it. I had questions about catholic practices as a child and access to priests to address them. Reading the bible was the catalyst and the things I found questionable I abstained from.

It was the most important decision I've made spiritually after following Him. I learned to listen to my gut and it never failed me in that respect. When something seems off spiritually it usually is. It's possible I was exhibiting early signs of discernment that would manifest later.

My grandparents were catholic as is my aunt and it was understood that they would be the last. Only my aunt remains and the rest are protestants. You have to be vigilant and unyielding when it comes to your children and descendants. That's the line you can impact the most. We emphasize theological harmony in mate selection and connections. I don't have someone with different ideologies in my ear or on my arm.

Having alliances who believe and do the same is more enriching and the whole is bettered.

~bella

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I really hate to zero in on something that is so central to the Catholic Faith, but as a life-long Protestant I have to address this. Catholic Christians are my "brothers and sisters," just as any Christian would be my "brother or sister." And I'm concerned that Catholic Tradition is getting in the way of our unified fellowship by promoting a form of idolatry.

We do not worship Mary, I think we can all agree? But viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

I find it difficult to read posts by Catholics who continually do so in reference to "our Lady," as if she is a demi-god. I'm realistic and don't expect many Catholics to up and change their ways. They would have to leave Catholicism entirely, perhaps?

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition. Scriptural truth seems designed by God to keep excessive Christian tradition in check.

Protestantism arose long after Blessed Mary was venerated as the mother of God and as the blessed ever virgin who carried in her womb the new covenant in Christ incarnate. She was seen as the queen of heaven crowned with twelve stars with the moon as her footstool and the sun as her garment. These accolades are in the holy scriptures themselves. The passages containing them have been cited and quoted in many threads on Christian Forums. So, if some protestants wish to call the veneration of Most Blessed Mary the mother of our Lord and God "idolatry" then all that can reasonably be said is that you are free to do so but I shall not join you in that terrible denunciation.

 

[RandyPNW]

Protestantism arose long after Blessed Mary was venerated as the mother of God and as the blessed ever virgin who carried in her womb the new covenant in Christ incarnate. She was seen as the queen of heaven crowned with twelve stars with the moon as her footstool and the sun as her garment. These accolades are in the holy scriptures themselves. The passages containing them have been cited and quoted in many threads on Christian Forums. So, if some protestants wish to call the veneration of Most Blessed Mary the mother of our Lord and God "idolatry" then all that can reasonably be said is that you are free to do so but I shall not join you in that terrible denunciation.

It is not a "terrible denunciation." It is, in fact, a form of idolatry. To call Mary "the Queen of Heaven" is *not* in the Scriptures. Your interpretation of Rev 12 adds to the words of the book of Revelation, and is purely your Catholic interpretation.

The Woman who gave birth to the Man-Child in Rev 12 can be viewed as either Eve or Israel--both gave birth to Christ, and neither gave an individual the title of "Queen of Heaven." Such an interpretation is itself "despicable!"

We shall all reign with Christ if we overcome, but never are we made to be kings over one another as Mary is given title of "Queen" over all other women and over all of mankind. Despicable! It is idolatry in its most obvious form.

So I return the "compliment," since you cannot discuss this in a civil way. It is *my view* that it is idolatry, and your opportunity to explain otherwise, as opposed to "denouncing" my view.

The fact Mary was venerated before Protestantism is of no relevance whatsoever. Protestantism arose to challenge Catholic traditions. And the tendency to deify human figures has always been with mankind, including those in the Church. I believe we need to resist such temptations.

Mary did *not* carry in her womb the "New Covenant." She carried Christ, born of the Holy Spirit, and completely separate from any works that Mary did, which were in fact flawed and needing redemption. She carried the one who alone would provide the New Covenant. Shame on you for confusing such a thing, as if Mary had anything at all to do with our Salvation!

But if you wish to discuss this in a friendly way, that may or may not be possible. I just feel duty-bound to speak the truth, though I wish to do so "in love." I do this out of love for your soul, and for all those who are tempted to give glory to a fallen human being like Mary. It's a distraction from our worship of God who alone deserves the glory, the honor, and the praise.

 

[Jipsah]

I'm concerned that Catholic Tradition is getting in the way of our unified fellowship by promoting a form of idolatry.

Yeah, if you're persuaded that asking a departed saint to pray for you is idolatry , then that pretty much puts paid to any kind of fellowship.

viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone

I'm not RCC, so I don't necessarily embrace the Queen of Heaven title. She is, or course, the God Bearer, aka the Mother of God, and as such I can and will ask her to pray for me, viz: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinnersnow and at the hour of our death." If I can ask old Miz Kim to pray for me, why not our Lord's Mother?

If that offends the sensibilities of some uber-Protestants, well, I reckon they'll either get over it or they won't.. If they'd prefer to not have fellowship with me then that's probably for the best all around. I'm willing to respect their right to believe stuff that I think is wrong/unscriptural/nonsensical/whatever even if I think those beliefs are rubbish. If they're not willing to show me equal respect, then they're perfectly within their rights to do so, but it isn't going to be conducive to a solid friendship, is it?

, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

Suit yourself, mate. You're under no compulsion to share my beliefs, nor I yours.

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition. Scriptural truth seems designed by God to keep excessive Christian tradition in check.

Fair play. For my part I'll follow my beliefs as a good Anglican, and if other Christians don't like it, they're well within their rights to give me a wide berth

 

[Jipsah]

Mary is just one person among many in the Church.

Hmmm... the Mother of God is just one more person among many. God-Bearer ,huh? No big thing, really. I mean, the angel showing up to bring her the news? Happens all the time. Choirs of angels greeting the birth of her Son? Carrying God Incarnate in her body for 9 months? So what? Raising Him, feeding Him, mothering Him? Same old same old. .... on what planet?

Tis is the sort of thing that has driven me away from Evangelical Protestantism completely.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yeah, if you're persuaded tghat asking a departed saint to pray for you is idolatry , then that pretty mucg puts paid to any kind of fellowship.

I'm not RCC, so I don't necessarily embrace the Queen of Heaven title. She is, or course, the God Bearer, aka the Mother of God, and as such I can and will ask her to pray for me, viz: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinnersnow and at the hour of our death."

If that offends the sensibilities of some uber-Protestants, well, I reckon they'll either get over it or they won't.. If they'd prefer to not have fellowship with me then that's probably for the best all around. I'm willing to respect their right to believe stuff that I think is wrong/unscriptural/nonsensical/whatever even if I think those beliefs are rubbish. If they're not willing to show me equal respect, then they're perfectly within their rights to do so, but it isn't going to be conducive o asolid friendship, is it?


Suit yourself, mate. You're under no compulsion to share my beliefs, nor I yours.


Fair play. For my part I'll follow my beliefs as a good Anglican, and if other Christians don't like it, they're well within their rights to give me a wide berth

I'm big on tolerance with non-Christians or with nominal Christians who are open. But with Christians who should know better, who wish to dilute the truth in Scriptures, I have zero tolerance.

You go your way, brother, if that's what you wish to do? You've argued for tolerance, and yet provided no substantial defense *from Scriptures.* So you just want to dilute Scriptural truth because you are for "human freedoms," whatever that means?

Either explain or go your own way, indeed. I don't play with the truth of God's word.

1) The "Mother of God" title originated with a different argument, with arguing for the Trinity. Mary gave birth to a God-Man--not obviously to God the Father. So painting her as "Mother of God" has migrated into something else more akin with Greek mythology. The "Mother of God" must be some kind of God herself!

2) We are not to consult with or pray to the dead. That is necromancy.

As a side note, I don't like your reference to yourself as a "blood drinker." That is a form of iconoclastic remark that Jesus never meant to suggest. That is a sly form of "baiting."

 

[RandyPNW]

Hmmm... the Mother of God is just one more person among many.

Yes, what is Paul? Who is Mary?

1 Cor 3.5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
15.9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Jesus did not get his divinity from Mary!...

Matt 12.47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”...
13.48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
13.55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mary's advice...

John 2.3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

God-Bearer ,huh? No big thing, really. I mean, the angel showing up to bring her the news? Happens all the time. Choirs of angels greeting the birth of her Son? Carrying God Incarnate in her body for 9 months? So what? Raising Him, feeding Him, mothering Him? Same old same old. .... on what planet?

Tis is the sort of thing that has driven me away from Evangelical Protestantism completely.

If you wanted to be an Evangelical Protestant and thought you could ignore the Scriptures, then you misunderstood what you were trying to be.

The "deification" of Mary, which is what I call it, is part of the phenomena of fallen human nature. We tend to flatter our own chosen denomination and to hero worship.

The pagan Greeks and Romans made their heroes into demi-gods. We in the Church should avoid this, and instead look to Scriptures which reserve all of the glory to God. Any glory we may strive for will come only after we give all the glory to Him.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I really hate to zero in on something that is so central to the Catholic Faith, but as a life-long Protestant I have to address this. Catholic Christians are my "brothers and sisters," just as any Christian would be my "brother or sister." And I'm concerned that Catholic Tradition is getting in the way of our unified fellowship by promoting a form of idolatry.

We do not worship Mary, I think we can all agree? But viewing her as the "Queen of Heaven," as someone to "pray to," seems to offend the idea of worshiping God alone, and praying to "our Heavenly Father." Jesus' disciples were told to listen not to Moses and Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but to the Son of God alone. Are we then to listen to Mary?

I find it difficult to read posts by Catholics who continually do so in reference to "our Lady," as if she is a demi-god. I'm realistic and don't expect many Catholics to up and change their ways. They would have to leave Catholicism entirely, perhaps?

But I just have to be true to my own conscience and sense of what the Scriptures teach. As a good Protestant I believe that apostolic authority precedes Catholic Tradition. Scriptural truth seems designed by God to keep excessive Christian tradition in check.

Evangelicals have to decide whether they want to maintain the purity of their anti-Catholicism or be open to historic Christianity. Maintaining the purity of their anti-Catholicism also cuts them off from Orthodoxy and traditional Christian beliefs. That may be what lots of Evangelicals want to do and that’s just fine. But since we aren’t hanging together we will be hung separately.

Being open to historic Christianity means accepting that from the beginning Christians recognized the Communion of the Saints and that we can and should all be offering prayers of intercession. The saints in heaven do this already. And that is something Christians knew until the great forgetting began about 500 years ago.

You can say Catholics are idolaters, but all that gets you is cutting yourself off from other believers. If that’s the purity you need, then fine. But a bit of historical study would show that Mary and the saints were known and loved wherever the faith spread. Purity may be important to you, but it means you pretty much have to trashcan all of Christian history to do so.