Jesus has broken the Sabbath

[Bob S]

the reply was not for you but to the original poster who has not been around for awhile but I did not notice that, it was not pointed at you.

Might I remind you that this is an open forum and anyone can interject at any time.

am really non denomination i follow the teachings of Jesus

Jesus didn't teach that Gentiles had to observe the Sabbath now did He?

As for the sabbath, part of the commandments, it was first given to God's chosen people but Jesus when he sent the disciples, before his ascension to Heaven sent them to preach and teach to the whole world, the 10 commandments are part of this.

Where do I find this in scripture? I do read in 2Cor3:6-11 that Jews are not under the ministry of death, the Ten Commandments. Verse 11 KJV says: 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Jesus was preaching repentance from sin and the coming Kingdom of Heaven, he was teaching the proper way to follow the commandments, with love and compassion not in the rigid and stale ways of the pharisees who arred to the commandments and made it a burden.

Jesus came to Israel and Judah. Yes, He came teaching the Law, but with an emphasis on Grace. Jesus was born under the Law and the Law was in effect until His death at Calvary. At that point, He fulfilled (brought to an end) the old covenant with that set of laws and ratified the New and better covenant with His own blood. The new and better covenant is the everlasting covenant of Grace and Love. Read 1Jn 3:19-24

In the old testament the sojourners had to follow the law then when with the israelites, it proves it is not only for the Jews.

That proves absolutely nothing. Gentiles could of their own volition accept the religion of the Israelites. God never demanded that Gentiles keep the ceremonial laws given only to Israel. Sabbath was part of all the ceremonial or ritual laws God required Israel to observe.

however today, most of the laws of Moses ( apart from the 10 Commandments) cannot be followed, as an example, the sacrifices and many other laws, purification etc.. are no longer necessary but the 10 Commandments also called the moral law has not passed away. it is the same covenant made initially with Israel but for the new covenant ( see jeremiah 31) the difference is that God will write the 10 commandments in mens hearts.

All but one command would come under the recognition as being moral or dealing with morality. The fourth commandment is ritual the same as all of the feast days and many other laws found in The Book of the Law

Jesus said if you love me keep my Commandments, this is meant for ALL not just the Jews otherwise it would make a distinction, a sort of cast system. Know that God is the father of All mankind. What is wrong with the Commandments anyways, Paul did say the commandments are good and Just! God wants us to be Holy as he is Holy.

Jeus command to us is for us to believe in Him and to love others as He loves is. Jn15:9-14, 1Jn 3:19-24

People have been mislead to believe the Commandments are for Jews only, this is simply not true.

No, it is not, I agree. Morality is forever. It has always been a sin to steal, bear false witness, etc., and will always be. God gave the ritual laws to one nation, Israel.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S,

Why are you so fearful of allowing others to speak for themselves? I'm positive I didn't address my questions to you. I already know about your false teachings, so I don't need or want to hear more of the same from you.

So spark, if you had a chance, you would bar me from the forum? I believe I have the right to interject the truth whenever and wherever it is needed. What you want or need does not change

The command is shown in the Greek and Hebrew out right in the word remember. In both languages Remember is in the imperative mood. Which is the form of a verb which expresses a command. We are commanded to remember the Sabbath Day and Keep it Holy. Verse nine is basically in the indicative mood future tense. Which simply put means, it is a fact that we have 6 days to work. So in essence we have no excuse to work on the Sabbath because of the other 6 days.

From where in the World did you get all that nonsense? Where did you get "WE"? God gave the command to one nation, Israel.

 

[HIM]

From where in the World did you get all that nonsense?

Not nonsense; facts. It is a fact that if we are going to be a student of the Law and try to teach we might want to know it.

It is a fact that There is no command in the Hebrew of Exodus 20 or the LXX which is the Greek translation of the Book of the Law that we must work six days.

And It is a fact that The command is shown in the Greek and Hebrew out right in the word remember. In both languages Remember is in the imperative mood. Which is the form of a verb which expresses a command. So it is commanded to remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. Not work six days

Because It is also a fact that Verse nine is basically in the indicative mood future tense. Which simply put means, it is a fact that we have 6 days to work. So in essence we have no excuse to work on the Sabbath because of the other 6 days.


And It is a fact that when you said, work six days as the commandment." that the commandment did not command to work six days as you teached.

. I didn't work six days as the commandment demanded either.

So It is also a fact that Now you know different than you thought. And since you know, there is no excuse in repeating your error. Because all here have seen or should of seen it isn't truth, by the facts shared above.

And It is a fact when a Christian is shown they are in error they need to confess and repent. AND publicly recant incase they led others away in their thinking.

Because it is also a fact to share error is a sin. And to continue in said sin is even more grievous.

 

[Icyspark]

So spark, if you had a chance, you would bar me from the forum? I believe I have the right to interject the truth whenever and wherever it is needed. What you want or need does not change

Hi Bob S,

Since you insist on inserting yourself in a conversation not involving you, then I will just share some of your more outstanding (in a bad way) false teachings here. You need to repent of your false teachings and be converted:

FALSE TEACHING #1: Adding and subtracting
In Deuteronomy 4:2 God says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it." But you reject God's directive and do exactly what He says not to do. You're constantly attempting to either subtract at least one of the commands from the Ten Commandment covenant, or you're attempting to add the Ten into the 603.

By whose authority are you rejecting what God says?

FALSE TEACHING #2: Elevating an unbiblical number (613) and attempting to marginalize one that is biblical (Ten)
There are currently 15 pages (x20 items/page) of you bandying about this unbiblical number in your apparent attempt to disparage the one set of laws which in FACT has a numeral attached to it and which is also defined as a covenant. I'd say this is not only a fixation but an attempt to do what you used to loudly, constantly and at length insist that Adventists were trying to brainwash people. But as I pointed out, it was actually you who was employing brainwashing techniques and it's apparent that you are continuing to do so.

Please show us anywhere in the Bible where this 613 number is so we can see why it is so important that you feel the need to blast this forum with it over 300 times! If you cannot supply any biblical reference for this number—and you can't—then this is the definition of attempted brainwashing.

FALSE TEACHING #3: Sabbath of the Jews

• Bob S says the Sabbath is for the Jews!
• Jesus says the Sabbath is made for human beings (Mark 2:27)

You're constantly asking Sabbatarians to supply a text which indicates the Sabbath was for anyone other than the Jews. We supply all sorts of biblical evidence to validate this premise. However, the one text which "absolutely" contradicts your private interpretation is this one where Jesus indicates very plainly that He "MADE" the Sabbath for human beings. Are you a human being? Then JESUS SAYS HE MADE THE SABBATH FOR YOU. This is inclusive language. By not believing and receiving Jesus's words, you reveal that you are rejecting Jesus! What does Jesus say about those who reject Him?

FALSE TEACHING #4: Employing Postmodern thinking to reject what the Bible plainly teaches
In this post you asserted, "satin [sic] will still tempt us in every way, but Jesus can and will keep us from falling. Jn 3:16." To which I replied, "John 3:16 doesn't say anything about keeping us from falling." To which you responded, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." This exchange illustrates the mind-numbing elevation of your own finite opinion above the Word of God and why your words should be condemned as false teaching.

FALSE TEACHING #5: You insist that the Sabbath is "absolutely" ritual
You said, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality. Throughout the Old Testament people were excused when breaking the Sabbath which was a ritual law."

To which I replied:
Again, this is a rejection of knowledge. I'm sure you're familiar with the story of the man caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath? Was he "excused when breaking the Sabbath"? Um, no.

Numbers 15:32-36
Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

According to your rationale, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality," you'd have to conclude that your premise affirms rather than denies the Sabbath as "dealing with morality." You don't just get to arbitrarily exclude something which doesn't align with your predetermined beliefs.

To which you wrote:
Hi spark, It seems like there is an exception to any rule and of course, you would find one.

So, while you elevate your own words and finite opinion above the Bible in general and the specific words of Jesus in particular, you also are not consistent or coherent within the framework of your own words. I just counteracted your self-contrived concept that the Sabbath is a ritual command using your own stated, absolute belief system against you. But as we saw in FALSE TEACHING #4 where your false claim was rebutted showing that your contention didn't align with Scripture you just moved the goalposts. Your response was, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." The goal posts are constantly in a state of motion with you.

FALSE TEACHING #6: Not an inkling of the Sabbath
In the not so distant past your contention was that Earth's population had "not an inkling of the knowledge of Saturday being special." This had the special bizarre quality of being posted on a thread which, if read, shoulda, coulda, woulda prevented you from posting something so patently false. That said, you actually acknowledged that you were aware of the truth, but you chose to proceed with your own feeble attempt at brainwashing.

I responded to your false teaching by showing how there are numerous languages all over the world which identify the seventh day of the week as Sabbath.

And what did you do with your "not an inkling" false teaching? You immediately jettisoned it and threw down this gem: "Is there any evidence of any of those nations observing Sabbath?"

It's just one false teaching goose-stepping in lock step behind another with you. Your misuse of the word "inkling" ranks right up there with your misuse of the word "absolutely." If you weren't so brazen in your responses I might think you were simply ignorant of the meaning of these words. But your rejection of knowledge indicates what appears to be a premeditated (or possibly, premedicated ), intentional use of words intended to mislead the uninformed. In this case there was an ABSOLUTE INKLING of the Sabbath—all over the world! How did that happen? It just throws a huge wrench in your monkey-works.

People aren't fooled. Especially those who have been given the gift of discernment. And now if someone has read through my post they will be even less likely to pay attention to your false teachings.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S,

Since you insist on inserting yourself in a conversation not involving you, then I will just share some of your more outstanding (in a bad way) false teachings here. You need to repent of your false teachings and be converted:

FALSE TEACHING #1: Adding and subtracting
In Deuteronomy 4:2 God says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it." But you reject God's directive and do exactly what He says not to do. You're constantly attempting to either subtract at least one of the commands from the Ten Commandment covenant, or you're attempting to add the Ten into the 603.

By whose authority are you rejecting what God says?

FALSE TEACHING #2: Elevating an unbiblical number (613) and attempting to marginalize one that is biblical (Ten)
There are currently 15 pages (x20 items/page) of you bandying about this unbiblical number in your apparent attempt to disparage the one set of laws which in FACT has a numeral attached to it and which is also defined as a covenant. I'd say this is not only a fixation but an attempt to do what you used to loudly, constantly and at length insist that Adventists were trying to brainwash people. But as I pointed out, it was actually you who was employing brainwashing techniques and it's apparent that you are continuing to do so.

Please show us anywhere in the Bible where this 613 number is so we can see why it is so important that you feel the need to blast this forum with it over 300 times! If you cannot supply any biblical reference for this number—and you can't—then this is the definition of attempted brainwashing.

FALSE TEACHING #3: Sabbath of the Jews

• Bob S says the Sabbath is for the Jews!
• Jesus says the Sabbath is made for human beings (Mark 2:27)

You're constantly asking Sabbatarians to supply a text which indicates the Sabbath was for anyone other than the Jews. We supply all sorts of biblical evidence to validate this premise. However, the one text which "absolutely" contradicts your private interpretation is this one where Jesus indicates very plainly that He "MADE" the Sabbath for human beings. Are you a human being? Then JESUS SAYS HE MADE THE SABBATH FOR YOU. This is inclusive language. By not believing and receiving Jesus's words, you reveal that you are rejecting Jesus! What does Jesus say about those who reject Him?

FALSE TEACHING #4: Employing Postmodern thinking to reject what the Bible plainly teaches
In this post you asserted, "satin [sic] will still tempt us in every way, but Jesus can and will keep us from falling. Jn 3:16." To which I replied, "John 3:16 doesn't say anything about keeping us from falling." To which you responded, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." This exchange illustrates the mind-numbing elevation of your own finite opinion above the Word of God and why your words should be condemned as false teaching.

FALSE TEACHING #5: You insist that the Sabbath is "absolutely" ritual
You said, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality. Throughout the Old Testament people were excused when breaking the Sabbath which was a ritual law."

To which I replied:
Again, this is a rejection of knowledge. I'm sure you're familiar with the story of the man caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath? Was he "excused when breaking the Sabbath"? Um, no.

Numbers 15:32-36
Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

According to your rationale, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality," you'd have to conclude that your premise affirms rather than denies the Sabbath as "dealing with morality." You don't just get to arbitrarily exclude something which doesn't align with your predetermined beliefs.

To which you wrote:
Hi spark, It seems like there is an exception to any rule and of course, you would find one.

So, while you elevate your own words and finite opinion above the Bible in general and the specific words of Jesus in particular, you also are not consistent or coherent within the framework of your own words. I just counteracted your self-contrived concept that the Sabbath is a ritual command using your own stated, absolute belief system against you. But as we saw in FALSE TEACHING #4 where your false claim was rebutted showing that your contention didn't align with Scripture you just moved the goalposts. Your response was, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." The goal posts are constantly in a state of motion with you.

FALSE TEACHING #6: Not an inkling of the Sabbath
In the not so distant past your contention was that Earth's population had "not an inkling of the knowledge of Saturday being special." This had the special bizarre quality of being posted on a thread which, if read, shoulda, coulda, woulda prevented you from posting something so patently false. That said, you actually acknowledged that you were aware of the truth, but you chose to proceed with your own feeble attempt at brainwashing.

I responded to your false teaching by showing how there are numerous languages all over the world which identify the seventh day of the week as Sabbath.

And what did you do with your "not an inkling" false teaching? You immediately jettisoned it and threw down this gem: "Is there any evidence of any of those nations observing Sabbath?"

It's just one false teaching goose-stepping in lock step behind another with you. Your misuse of the word "inkling" ranks right up there with your misuse of the word "absolutely." If you weren't so brazen in your responses I might think you were simply ignorant of the meaning of these words. But your rejection of knowledge indicates what appears to be a premeditated (or possibly, premedicated ), intentional use of words intended to mislead the uninformed. In this case there was an ABSOLUTE INKLING of the Sabbath—all over the world! How did that happen? It just throws a huge wrench in your monkey-works.

People aren't fooled. Especially those who have been given the gift of discernment. And now if someone has read through my post they will be even less likely to pay attention to your false teachings.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Oh spark, you do make me chuckle by your continued ranting and raving. Calm down, I fear you are going to hemorrhage. In a past post I allowed you to set me straight on just how many commandments God gave to Israel since you disagree with the count taken from our Jewish friends. I am still waiting on your answer, so until I get set straight I will use the count that the Jews have determined and just chuckle over your ranting. So, until you do you are falsely accusing me publicly. What are we to think of you?

Concerning how many people dead and alive have ever heard of Sabbath observance, I don't remember you ever proving my statement to be wrong. "numerous languages all over the world which identify the seventh day of the week as Sabbath." does not prove many have not ever heard of the Sabbath as being obligatory. So, until you do you are falsely accusing me publicly. What are we to think of you?

Shame on those who are falsely ridiculing others for identifying false teaching on forums.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Oh spark, you do make me chuckle by your continued ranting and raving. Calm down, I fear you are going to hemorrhage. In a past post I allowed you to set me straight on just how many commandments God gave to Israel since you disagree with the count taken from our Jewish friends. I am still waiting on your answer, so until I get set straight I will use the count that the Jews have determined and just chuckle over your ranting. So, until you do you are falsely accusing me publicly. What are we to think of you?

Concerning how many people dead and alive have ever heard of Sabbath observance, I don't remember you ever proving my statement to be wrong. "numerous languages all over the world which identify the seventh day of the week as Sabbath." does not prove many have not ever heard of the Sabbath as being obligatory. So, until you do you are falsely accusing me publicly. What are we to think of you?

Shame on those who are falsely ridiculing others for identifying false teaching on forums.

I think it's worth focusing on the idea of observing all of the commands, no matter how many there are or how they're counted. I think one of the mistakes many, though not all, Sabbatarians make is to focus only on one particular set of 10 commands and no others. They will focus on the ones in Ex 20//Dt. 5, and not the ones in Ex 34 for example (which are explicitly called "ten commandments" in Ex 34:28). There is also probably an exegetical application of the 10 commandments again in Lev 19.

And it's clear from places like Deut 4:1-2, 30:15-18 that the entire book of Deuteronomy is intended, not just ten commands in Deut 5. It's the entire Torah, but many Sabbatarians think only ten apply.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think it's worth focusing on the idea of observing all of the commands, no matter how many there are or how they're counted. I think one of the mistakes many, though not all, Sabbatarians make is to focus only on one particular set of 10 commands and no others. They will focus on the ones in Ex 20//Dt. 5, and not the ones in Ex 34 for example (which are explicitly called "ten commandments" in Ex 34:28). There is also probably an exegetical application of the 10 commandments again in Lev 19.

And it's clear from places like Deut 4:1-2, 30:15-18 that the entire book of Deuteronomy is intended, not just ten commands in Deut 5. It's the entire Torah, but many Sabbatarians think only ten apply.

Sorry, no.

There are not two sets of different laws on Ten Commandments in scripture only one.

Exodus 34 can be confusing, if not reconciling with the rest of scriptures. Moses wrote all other laws, statues ordinances etc. and placed them in a book BESIDE (outside) the Ark of the Covenant. Only the Ten Commandments was placed INSIDE the ark Exo 40:20 not two different sets with two different laws.

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

God alone wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.
Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

The Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 20 and Moses repeated them 40 years later shown in Deut 5

Exodus 34 is reviewing some of the laws from both the law of Moses, written by Moses and the Ten Commandments, personally written by the finger of God and there are more than 10 laws written in Exo 34 because some are from the Ten some from the law of Moses.

Exo 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, (law of Moses) for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Two different covenants. The law of Moses and the Ten Commandments God's covenant Deut 4:13.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

The distinction is clearly made which is why reviewing some of the laws included both the law of Moses and the Ten Commandments, not that the Ten Commandments was being re-written.

There are more laws than the Ten Commandments- but if one were truly keeping the Ten Commandments- everything God commanded would be kept.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Sorry, no.

There are not two sets of different laws on Ten Commandments in scripture only one.

Exodus 34 can be confusing, if not reconciling with the rest of scriptures. Moses wrote all other laws, statues ordinances etc. and placed them in a book BESIDE (outside) the Ark of the Covenant. Only the Ten Commandments was placed INSIDE the ark Exo 40:20 not two different sets with two different laws.

Ex 34:28 uses the same term for the 10 commandments that Deut 4:13 uses to refer to the 10 commandments ("devarim"). Ex 34:28 refers to the list in Ex 34 as the ten commandments. There's no real way around this, and on my view this nuance isn't an issue. I think it becomes an issue for some Sabbatarians who focus on observance of a particular set of "ten commandments" while ignoring other commandments, especially when some of those other commandments refer to another set of "ten commandments."

I agree that the list in Ex 34 isn't the same as Ex 20//Dt 5. Yet both Ex 34 and Dt 4 refer to those respective lists as "ten commandments." This isn't an issue on my view. And I doubt it's an issue for Sabbatarians (eg, some Messianic Jews/Christians) who observe all the commandments and don't try to limit it to only 10.

The Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 20 and Moses repeated them 40 years later shown in Deut 5

A minor detail, but the commands from Ex 20 aren't simply repeated verbatim in Dt 5. There are some differences.

Exodus 34 is reviewing some of the laws from both the law of Moses, written by Moses and the Ten Commandments, personally written by the finger of God and there are more than 10 laws written in Exo 34 because some are from the Ten some from the law of Moses.

Yet contextually, Ex 34 refers to the list in Ex 34 as the 'ten commandments," however it may be that those should be grouped and counted. I could also play the same game of number discrepancies with Ex 20 and Dt 5 as well. It's not clear from the text itself how exactly those should be counted, though the number is ten, however they may be grouped and counted. Different interpretations count them differently in order to wind up at 10.

Exo 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, (law of Moses) for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Two different covenants. The law of Moses and the Ten Commandments God's covenant Deut 4:13.

There's not need on my view to start asserting multiple covenants in Ex 20, 34, and Dt 5. Maybe this is required on your interpretation, but that's a shortcoming, not a benefit.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

The distinction is clearly made which is why reviewing some of the laws included both the law of Moses and the Ten Commandments, not that the Ten Commandments was being re-written.

There are more laws than the Ten Commandments- but if one were truly keeping the Ten Commandments- everything God commanded would be kept.

I didn't say anything was being "re-written." There are simply two places where the Torah explictly explictly refers to and calls a list as "ten commandments" and they are different (Ex 34, Dt 5). Then there are two other places where the ten commandments are listed, but aren't explictly called "ten commandments" (Ex 20, Lev 19). So if the emphasis is to focus on, and only observe "the" ten commmandments, then it's worth noting there are two lists that are explictly called "ten commandments" and they are different.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ex 34:28 refers to the list in Ex 34 as the ten commandments.

Your words, not scripture. Exo 34 clear makes the distinction between the laws Moses wrote Exo 34:27 and the Ten Commandments that God alone wrote Exo 34:28 Both were being reviewed hence why the scriptures made this clear distinction and we see laws from both the Ten and the law of Moses in Exo 34. Hard to make the argument they are only the Ten Commandments in this passage because Moses did not write the Ten Commandments- God did, Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 God didn’t write the law of Moses- Moses did. Deut 31:24 Exo 34 shows more than 10 laws- so it’s up to us to pick the Ten we want instead of God writing the Words of the Covenant? Basically making one their own god. No, as shown by the scriptures, they were reviewing some of the laws from the law of Moses Exo 34:27 and some from the Ten Commandments Exo 34:28.

There's no real way around this, and on my view this nuance isn't an issue. I think it becomes an issue for some Sabbatarians who focus on observance of a particular set of "ten commandments" while ignoring other commandments, especially when some of those other commandments refer to another set of "ten commandments."

I agree that the list in Ex 34 isn't the same as Ex 20//Dt 5. Yet both Ex 34 and Dt 4 refer to those respective lists as "ten commandments." This isn't an issue on my view. And I doubt it's an issue for Sabbatarians (eg, some Messianic Jews/Christians) who observe all the commandments and don't try to limit it to only 10.



A minor detail, but the commands from Ex 20 aren't simply repeated verbatim in Dt 5. There are some differences.



Yet contextually, Ex 34 refers to the list in Ex 34 as the 'ten commandments," however it may be that those should be grouped and counted. I could also play the same game of number discrepancies with Ex 20 and Dt 5 as well. It's not clear from the text itself how exactly those should be counted, though the number is ten, however they may be grouped and counted. Different interpretations count them differently in order to wind up at 10.




There's not need on my view to start asserting multiple covenants in Ex 20, 34, and Dt 5. Maybe this is required on your interpretation, but that's a shortcoming, not a benefit.



I didn't say anything was being "re-written." There are simply two places where the Torah explictly explictly refers to and calls a list as "ten commandments" and they are different (Ex 34, Dt 5). Then there are two other places where the ten commandments are listed, but aren't explictly called "ten commandments" (Ex 20, Lev 19). So if the emphasis is to focus on, and only observe "the" ten commmandments, then it's worth noting there are two lists that are explictly called "ten commandments" and they are different.

There are not two places that show different Ten Commandments- Moses writing is not the same as God writing. Moses is not God. Deut 5 is almost identical except a few words that are different because it was a paraphrase , he was repeating what God wrote and spoke, the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20- 40 years later.

Moses repeated the Ten Commandments 40 years later before the Israelites were to enter into their Promise Land to diligently keep

Deut 5:6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]bondage.
7 ‘You shall have no other gods [b]before Me.
8 ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow[c] down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, ama jealous God, [d]visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and [e]keep My commandments.
11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him[f]guiltless who takes His name in vain.
12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day, to [g]keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
16 ‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lordyour God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
17 ‘You shall not murder.
18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.
19 ‘You shall not steal.
20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’
22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets

Ten Commandments was written before Exo 34 so was the law of Moses- hence why both were being reviewed In Exo 34

Which Deut 5 was repeated from Exodus 20. God never wrote different laws on different stones, this is not a biblical teaching. When Moses broke the first tablets God re-wrote the EXACT words. Deut 10:4


The Ten Commandments Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20 - New King James Version


Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor [b]serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting[c] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lordmade the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lordyour God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

God called the Ten Commandments “My Covenant”. Deut 4:13 the words of the covenant were only the Ten Commandments Exo 34:28 and He added no more Deut 5:22, the law of Moses is a separate covenant Exo 34:27 as shown handwritten by Moses placed OUTSIDE the ark Deut 31:24-26 only the Ten was placed inside the ark Exo 40:20. Different covenants that serves different purposes. Unless one understands these differences, NT scripture will be almost impossible to understand.

Jesus quoted from the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 like Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Believe what you want but we do need to be careful of what we are teaching Mat 5:19. All gets sorted out soon enough.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Your words, not scripture. Exo 34 clear makes the distinction between the laws Moses wrote Exo 34:27 and the Ten Commandments that God alone wrote Exo 34:28

Ex 34:27-28 has the same person writing down the ten commandments of Ex 34 - Moses. In Ex 34:27 God tells Moses to write, and in vs 28 "he" (ie, Moses) writes them down. What he writes down is what God just told him in Ex 34:11-26. This is easily seen as the context of the passage and simplee reading comprehension. God tells Moses some commands in Ex 34:11-26. In vs 27 he tells Moses to write them down (and calls them his "covenant" just as he did in vs.10). In vs 28, Moses writes them down and they are called the "ten commandments" (the ten "devarim"), however exactly they may be grouped and counted.

There is another set of commands in Dt 4 called the "ten devarim", which are then listed in Dt 5, however these may be grouped and counted.

Both sets are explicitly called the ten commandments.

There are not two places that show different Ten Commandments- Moses writing is not the same as God writing. Moses is not God. Deut 5 is almost identical except a few words that are different because it was a paraphrase , he was repeating what God wrote and spoke, the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20- 40 years later.

Well, there is at least one part that isn't clearly a paraphrase. In Dt 5 the reason for the Sabbath is different than the one given in Ex 20. In Dt 5 the Israelites are to observe the Sabbath because they are to remember how they were slaves in Egypt and how God delieved them. In Ex 20 they were to observe the Sabbath because of God resting at creation. One is not a paraphrase of the other, nor is one verbatim of the other. Those are two different reasons for Sabbath observance. I personanly have no issue saying both of them are correct, but let's not pretend they're identical or paraphrases of one another.

God called the Ten Commandments “My Covenant”. Deut 4:13 the words of the covenant were only the Ten Commandments Exo 34:28 and He added no more Deut 5:22, the law of Moses is a separate covenant Exo 34:27 as shown handwritten by Moses placed OUTSIDE the ark Deut 31:24-26 only the Ten was placed inside the ark Exo 40:20. Different covenants that serves different purposes. Unless one understands these differences, NT scripture will be almost impossible to understand.

Dt 4:13 is refering to the list in Dt 5. This is the contextual reading - Dt 4 immediately precedes the list found in Dt 5. Several times Moses says he's about to teach the Israelites some "statutes and ordinances" (4:1, 5-6, 8, 14), thse are the "ten commandments" (4:13). Then we are told Moses taught them "statutes and ordinances" (4:46) and then it lists these "statutes and ordinances" (5:1) which are the ten commandments. This is all a literary unit. The "ten commandments" in Dt 4:13 are best understood, contextually, as the list in Dt 5.

Jesus quoted from the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 like Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Believe what you want but we do need to be careful of what we are teaching Mat 5:19. All gets sorted out soon enough.

I didn't dispute that Jesus quoted from the ten commandments, so don't put words in my mouth. Yet when it came to identifying the greatest commandment, he quoted from Dt 6:4-5 and Lev 19:18; he didn't quote from Ex 20 or Dt 5. When it came to which commands to observe, Jesus' most important ones were found outside of Ex 20 and Dt 5. Therefore, following the commands wasn't limited to the lists of Ex 20//Dt 5. He quotes and teaches about other laws in the Sermon on the Mount as well. Should I step through all the times Jesus teaches on and expects his followers to observe a command not found in the ten commandments? This thread could get long....

When it comes to Matt 5, I'd say you're the one ignoring much of the Law by saying only the "ten commandments" matter. In Matt 5:18 Jesus says not one stroke of the letter would pass away, yet it looks like you're cutting out a lot of strokes of the Law and only saying "ten commandments" need to be followed (though you are selective when it comes to which list of ten are required).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ex 34:27-28 has the same person writing down the ten commandments of Ex 34 - Moses. In Ex 34:27 God tells Moses to write, and in vs 28 "he" (ie, Moses) writes them down. What he writes down is what God just told him in Ex 34:11-26. This is easily seen as the context of the passage and simplee reading comprehension. God tells Moses some commands in Ex 34:11-26. In vs 27 he tells Moses to write them down (and calls them his "covenant" just as he did in vs.10). In vs 28, Moses writes them down and they are called the "ten commandments" (the ten "devarim"), however exactly they may be grouped and counted.

There is another set of commands in Dt 4 called the "ten devarim", which are then listed in Dt 5, however these may be grouped and counted.

Both sets are explicitly called the ten commandments.




Well, there is at least one part that isn't clearly a paraphrase. In Dt 5 the reason for the Sabbath is different than the one given in Ex 20. In Dt 5 the Israelites are to observe the Sabbath because they are to remember how they were slaves in Egypt and how God delieved them. In Ex 20 they were to observe the Sabbath because of God resting at creation. One is not a paraphrase of the other, nor is one verbatim of the other. Those are two different reasons for Sabbath observance. I personanly have no issue saying both of them are correct, but let's not pretend they're identical or paraphrases of one another.





Dt 4:13 is refering to the list in Dt 5. This is the contextual reading - Dt 4 immediately precedes the list found in Dt 5. Several times Moses says he's about to teach the Israelites some "statutes and ordinances" (4:1, 5-6, 8, 14), thse are the "ten commandments" (4:13). Then we are told Moses taught them "statutes and ordinances" (4:46) and then it lists these "statutes and ordinances" (5:1) which are the ten commandments. This is all a literary unit. The "ten commandments" in Dt 4:13 are best understood, contextually, as the list in Dt 5.



I didn't dispute that Jesus quoted from the ten commandments, so don't put words in my mouth. Yet when it came to identifying the greatest commandment, he quoted from Dt 6:4-5 and Lev 19:18; he didn't quote from Ex 20 or Dt 5. When it came to which commands to observe, Jesus' most important ones were found outside of Ex 20 and Dt 5. Therefore, following the commands wasn't limited to the lists of Ex 20//Dt 5. He quotes and teaches about other laws in the Sermon on the Mount as well. Should I step through all the times Jesus teaches on and expects his followers to observe a command not found in the ten commandments? This thread could get long....

When it comes to Matt 5, I'd say you're the one ignoring much of the Law by saying only the "ten commandments" matter. In Matt 5:18 Jesus says not one stroke of the letter would pass away, yet it looks like you're cutting out a lot of strokes of the Law and only saying "ten commandments" need to be followed (though you are selective when it comes to which list of ten are required).

Moses did not write the Ten Commandments God did Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16

The ”He” is God, not Moses. Moses is not God

Exo 34:28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he (Moses) neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Which almost every translator says they are taken from Exodus 20 which reconciles with the rest of the scriptures

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20 - New King James Version

The Ten Commandments - And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above...

www.biblegateway.com

But we have free will to believe what we want. Take care

 

[Yekcidmij]

Moses did not write the Ten Commandments God did Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16

The ”He” is God, not Moses. Moses is not God

Exo 34:28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he (Moses) neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Which almost every translator says they are taken from Exodus 20 which reconciles with the rest of the scriptures

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20 - New King James Version

The Ten Commandments - And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above...

www.biblegateway.com

But we have free will to believe what we want. Take care

That's not how the context of Ex 34 flows. God verbally tells Moses commands (34:10). God then tells Moses to write them down (34:27). Moses obeys and writes down what God told him (Ex 34:28), and it's called the ten commandments (34:28). There's really no way around this. It's not difficult for me or most other theological positions; it's only difficult if there's an odd fixation on a particular set of 10 commandments at the expense of all other commands.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's not how the context of Ex 34 flows. God verbally tells Moses commands (34:10). God then tells Moses to write them down (34:27). Moses obeys and writes down what God told him (Ex 34:28), and it's called the ten commandments (34:28). There's really no way around this. It's not difficult for me or most other theological positions; it's only difficult if there's an odd fixation on a particular set of 10 commandments at the expense of all other commands.

Context should always be over ones flow. Especially if it explicitly states something different

Exo 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

Exo 34:28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he (Moses) neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

God personally wrote the second tablets exactly as the first- Deut 10:4 God wrote not Moses. One set of Words on the Ten Commandments, placed inside the ark of the Covenant Exo 40:20 not two, found in Exo 20. Re-wrote and reviewed in Exo 34 along with some of the laws Moses wrote down in a book Exo 34:27 Deut 31:24-26

God doing (Creator) should be elevated over man doing.(creation) At least it is for me. Jesus tells us not to break the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat 5:19-30 because He wants our hearts close to Him and when we keep our rules over obeying the commandments of God again quoting directly from the Ten, He says ones heart is far from Him, Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 the opposite of the New Covenant. Heb 8:10

 

[Yekcidmij]

Exo 34:28 So he (Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he (Moses) neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

You keep inserting "(God)" into the verse where the context is Moses writing. in Ex 34:27 God tells Moses to write. "He" (ie, Moses) was "with Yahweh" (Ex 34:28) and "he" (ie, still Moses) writes (Ex 34:28). There is no reason to take your interpretation as the simple contextual, literary reading of this text supports the view I'm giving.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You keep inserting "(God)" into the verse where the context is Moses writing. in Ex 34:27 God tells Moses to write. "He" (ie, Moses) was "with Yahweh" (Ex 34:28) and "he" (ie, still Moses) writes (Ex 34:28). There is no reason to take your interpretation as the simple contextual, literary reading of this text supports the view I'm giving.

No, I did not capitalize He, nor do I ignore explicit scripture such Exo 34:1 Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16.

 

[Yekcidmij]

No, I did not capitalize He,

I capitalized it because it was the first word in my sentence. Just normal English grammar.

 

[Yekcidmij]

nor do I ignore explicit scripture such Exo 34:1 Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16.

Sure, you just ignore the immediate and explicit literary context.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I capitalized it because it was the first word in my sentence. Just normal English grammar.

Hmmmm.....And is the first word in the sentence.

Exo 34:28 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And we should ignore this?

Exo 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Hmmmm.....And is the first word in the sentence.

Exo 34:28 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And we should ignore this?

Exo 34:1 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

Yet in vs 27 he clearly tells Moses to write. Moses is God's instrument, as a prophet always was.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yet in vs 27 he clearly tells Moses to write. Moses is God's instrument, as a prophet always was.

v27 refers to the law Moses wrote. Moses wrote the law of Moses Deut 31:24-26 Exo 34:27

v28 refers to what God wrote- His commandments - the Ten Commandments- with His own finger as shown by explicit scripture Exo 34:1 Exo 34:28 Exo 32:16 Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13

One was written by man, the other divinely written by God's own finger engraved in stone.

There are some scriptures that can be hard to understand, I do not believe this is one of them.