VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

The great multitude in Revelation 7:9 are standing before the throne, and before the Lamb - Jesus. They are in heaven, where John is as he witnessed the scene..

keras said:
This is a prime example of how Douggg falsify teaches and adds to scripture. Especially to Revelation; a more serious crime.
Heaven is not mentioned anywhere in Rev 7. John is looking at earthly scenes. Proved by Rev 7:1-3

Rapture believers exhibit a chronic failure to see what God really does plan for His people in the end times. It is not to remove them from the earth, as Revelation 12 makes clear.
From Rev 12:6 & 14, those Christians who kept strong in their faith and trusted the Lord for His protection during the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, will be kept safe in a distant location on earth. But those Christians who did not Call upon the Lord for protection, who will think He has forsaken them - mainly because they did not get raptured, will have to remain and face persecution by the 'beast'.

The 'boot', is in fact; on the other foot. Far from people sitting in heaven watching the poor saps who rejected their fav rapture doctrine, it will be them, all those sucked in by Satans lies, who will get their heads chopped off unless they totally renounce Jesus and God and kowtow to the image. Revelation 13:15-17

 

[keras]

You can’t refute that no believers enter the Trib,

Revelation 12:17 proves you to be a promoter of false doctrines.
If you keep up your foolish belief of being whisked outta here at the first hint of trouble, then you are likely to be one of the Christians who will face persecution.
However, provided you refuse to worship the beast, his image, or his mark and get killed for your faith, then' at His glorious Return, Jesus will restore you to life and you will be His priest and will reign with Him. Revelation 20:6

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 12:17 proves you to be a promoter of false doctrines.
If you keep up your foolish belief of being whisked outta here at the first hint of trouble, then you are likely to be one of the Christians who will face persecution.
However, provided you refuse to worship the beast, his image, or his mark and get killed for your faith, then' at His glorious Return, Jesus will restore you to life and you will be His priest and will reign with Him. Revelation 20:6

Once again you are ignoring the prime attribute of new converts in the Trib: their testimony of Jesus which causes them to be martyred. You give no credit to the 144k and the 2W.

I prove the truth in the Bible that refutes your claims. You just babble on with your false opinions.

 

[Douggg]

This is a prime example of how Douggg falsify teaches and adds to scripture. Especially to Revelation; a more serious crime.
Heaven is not mentioned anywhere in Rev 7. John is looking at earthly scenes. Proved by Rev 7:1-3

No, Revelation 7:1-8 is about an earthly scene. Revelation 7:9-17 begins a new scene, but in heaven, that John witnessed.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It takes place in heaven because the great multitude is standing before the throne of God which is in heaven, and the Lamb-Jesus.

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Then in Revelation 7:11, all the angels that stood round about the throne of God, and the elders, and the four beasts, joined in and fell before the throne of God, worshiping God in verse 12.

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

There is nothing in the Revelation 7:9-17 scene mentioned about being on earth, keras. It all takes place in heaven where the throne of God is.

 

[Oseas]

You are misquoting Rev 3:10. The pertinent quote from Jesus is, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” The “hour of trial” is the 7-year Trib that engulfs the entire world. We are kept from it. That means we never enter it.

Everyone who know and walk in the Truth of GOD must refute your false interpretation of the Word of GOD, and the mortal posts posted by you here, as hapenned in Genesis 3:1. By the way, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, GOD is Spirit, self-executing, "and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and Truth,” JESUS said.

Have you never read Hebrews 11:ESV?
27By faith Moses left Egypt,not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
28By faith Moses kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the DESTROYER of the firstborn might not touch them.

29By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land,but the Egyptians,when they attempted to do the same,were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
31By faith Rahab the prostitute did not PERISH with those who were disobedient,because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—
33 who through FAITH CONQUERED KINGDOMS, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, ESCAPED the edge of the Sword, were made STRONG out of weakness, became MIGHTY IN WAR, put foreign armies to flight.

35Women received back their dead by resurrection.Some were TORTURED,refusing to accept release,so that they might rise again to a better life.
36 Others suffered mocking and flogging,and even chains and imprisonment.
37 They were STONED, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the Sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
38of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains,and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since GOD had provided something better for us,that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

JESUS said to the Father:
6“I have manifested your name-JESUS-to the people whom you gave me out of the world.Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in Truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, KEEP THEM in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I KEPT THEM in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (Why do you feel insecure? Are you afraid? GOD the Father will do what JESUS asked Him to do, don't you believe?)
13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the WORLD, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.14 I have given them your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that you TAKE THEM out of the world, but that you KEEP them from the evil one. (The last battle against the Evil One is now, in the current time of Apocalypse, even now, and from now on, AND GOD WILL NOT TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, although you be the fearful)
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them in the Truth; your Word is Truth.

Get ready

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, Revelation 7:1-8 is about an earthly scene. Revelation 7:9-17 begins a new scene, but in heaven, that John witnessed.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It takes place in heaven because the great multitude is standing before the throne of God which is in heaven, and the Lamb-Jesus.

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Then in Revelation 7:11, all the angels that stood round about the throne of God, and the elders, and the four beasts, joined in and fell before the throne of God, worshiping God in verse 12.

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

There is nothing in the Revelation 7:9-17 scene mentioned about being on earth, keras. It all takes place in heaven where the throne of God is.

keras said:
This is a prime example of how Douggg falsify teaches and adds to scripture. Especially to Revelation; a more serious crime.
Heaven is not mentioned anywhere in Rev 7. John is looking at earthly scenes. Proved by Rev 7:1-3

Rapture believers exhibit a chronic failure to see what God really does plan for His people in the end times. It is not to remove them from the earth, as Revelation 12 makes clear.
From Rev 12:6 & 14, those Christians who kept strong in their faith and trusted the Lord for His protection during the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, will be kept safe in a distant location on earth. But those Christians who did not Call upon the Lord for protection, who will think He has forsaken them - mainly because they did not get raptured, will have to remain and face persecution by the 'beast'.

The 'boot', is in fact; on the other foot. Far from people sitting in heaven watching the poor saps who rejected their fav rapture doctrine, it will be them, all those sucked in by Satans lies, who will get their heads chopped off unless they totally renounce Jesus and God and kowtow to the image. Revelation 13:15-17

Keras, you keep saying "It doesn't say 'Heaven.'" and other misguided statements. Heaven can be described in verses. Rev 7:9-17 are rich in descriptions of the GM being in Heaven. Example: Rev 7:15 (ESV):
“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Where are the GM in verse 15?

 

[keras]

There is nothing in the Revelation 7:9-17 scene mentioned about being on earth,

Revelation 7:1-14 does not change the location of being on earth. Do palms grow in heaven? No; it is a Spiritual place and Revelation 7:14-17 describes it.
Rev 7:9, is all of Gods faithful peoples, that John sees; in Jerusalem. Proved by Romans 9:24-26....in the very place that ancient Israel was exiled from.
If they were in heaven, it would mean they have already received immortality. That does not happen until the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The pretentious nonsense of people being raptured to heaven, is just a fable, what Paul said many would be fooled by.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 7:1-14 does not change the location of being on earth.

The change to a new scene that is taking place in heaven is in Revelation 7:9

Do palms grow in heaven?

Yes. Because them who are worshiping God sitting on His throne in heaven, have palms (leaves) in their hands.

Rev 7:9, is all of Gods faithful peoples, that John sees; in Jerusalem. Proved by Romans 9:24-26....in the very place that ancient Israel was exiled from.

No, they are in heaven where God's throne is and the elders, and the four beasts, and the angels. The great multitude are them who have come out of the great tribulation, died during that time. It does not include all Christians. But that special group.

If they were in heaven, it would mean they have already received immortality. That does not happen until the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.

No, it is their souls that are in heaven, not having resurrected nor raptured bodies. They are the ones in the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-11.

 

[keras]

The change to a new scene that is taking place in heaven is in Revelation 7:9

Just your faulty opinion, not what Revelation says at all.
The great multitude are the Christian peoples, gathered into the holy Land. The wrong belief of a rapture is never stated in the Bible, but the gathering of the faithful, living people of God into all of the holy Land is; many times. Ezekiel 34:11-16 is a proof text and note that in Ezekiel 34:17-22 tells how the Lord will punish those who muddy the water, that is: who teach falsehoods and who trample on the pasture, that is: who misinterpret and twist scripture to suit their wild imaginings.

they are in heaven where God's throne

Where is Gods Throne? You have a Childs view of heaven, as being high in the sky, in outer space. Ezekiel 1_1, Acts 7:56 tells us that heaven can be wherever God wishes.

Re palm branches, there will be trees on the new earth, Revelation 22:2, but the Spiritual heaven where God resides now, does not have soil and the normal things like sunshine and rain for plants to grow. Those things are that which God made for His Creation and for humans to benefit from.
The great multitude in Rev 7:9 are on earth, they are alive and what happens is a reanactment of Palm Sunday.

 

[Douggg]

Just your faulty opinion, not what Revelation says at all.

Do a copy and paste of Revelation 7:9 from the 1989 REB bible that you use.

The great multitude are the Christian peoples, gathered into the holy Land.

Israel is not mentioned in Revelation 7:9-17.

The scene that John witnessed is in heaven where the great multitude stood before the throne of God. And where the angels stood around the throne of God, and the elders, and the four beasts in Revelation 7:11.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, Revelation 7:1-8 is about an earthly scene. Revelation 7:9-17 begins a new scene, but in heaven, that John witnessed.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It takes place in heaven because the great multitude is standing before the throne of God which is in heaven, and the Lamb-Jesus.

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Then in Revelation 7:11, all the angels that stood round about the throne of God, and the elders, and the four beasts, joined in and fell before the throne of God, worshiping God in verse 12.

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

There is nothing in the Revelation 7:9-17 scene mentioned about being on earth, keras. It all takes place in heaven where the throne of God is.

Douggg, I hold that Rev 7 is an interlude. I also believe there’s an interlude between Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 7:9-17. You appear to imply that, as well.

The 144k are provably active no later than Rev 9:4. But, the tremendous number of new conversions in the 2nd and 4th seals (evidenced by Rev 6:10), place the 144k very active from the 2nd seal through at least an early stage of, if not more into the GT. The 144k are provably in Heaven as of Rev 14:3.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 7:1-14 does not change the location of being on earth. Do palms grow in heaven? No; it is a Spiritual place and Revelation 7:14-17 describes it.
Rev 7:9, is all of Gods faithful peoples, that John sees; in Jerusalem. Proved by Romans 9:24-26....in the very place that ancient Israel was exiled from.
If they were in heaven, it would mean they have already received immortality. That does not happen until the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The pretentious nonsense of people being raptured to heaven, is just a fable, what Paul said many would be fooled by.

You’re wrong on two statements.

Paradise (where deceased believers go immediately after death) is not a spiritual place, as proven in Luke 16:19-31.

The GM are from martyrs in the Trib. The martyrs are unbelievers who will be converted as Christians, by the 144k and 2W.

Just your faulty opinion, not what Revelation says at all.
The great multitude are the Christian peoples, gathered into the holy Land. The wrong belief of a rapture is never stated in the Bible, but the gathering of the faithful, living people of God into all of the holy Land is; many times. Ezekiel 34:11-16 is a proof text and note that in Ezekiel 34:17-22 tells how the Lord will punish those who muddy the water, that is: who teach falsehoods and who trample on the pasture, that is: who misinterpret and twist scripture to suit their wild imaginings.

Where is Gods Throne? You have a Childs view of heaven, as being high in the sky, in outer space. Ezekiel 1_1, Acts 7:56 tells us that heaven can be wherever God wishes.

Re palm branches, there will be trees on the new earth, Revelation 22:2, but the Spiritual heaven where God resides now, does not have soil and the normal things like sunshine and rain for plants to grow. Those things are that which God made for His Creation and for humans to benefit from.
The great multitude in Rev 7:9 are on earth, they are alive and what happens is a reanactment of Palm Sunday.

Revelation 7:1-14 does not change the location of being on earth. Do palms grow in heaven? No; it is a Spiritual place and Revelation 7:14-17 describes it.
Rev 7:9, is all of Gods faithful peoples, that John sees; in Jerusalem. Proved by Romans 9:24-26....in the very place that ancient Israel was exiled from.
If they were in heaven, it would mean they have already received immortality. That does not happen until the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The pretentious nonsense of people being raptured to heaven, is just a fable, what Paul said many would be fooled by.

Keras, the GM are martyrs of unbelievers who finally turned to Christ, in the Trib. They are killed after giving testimony of Jesus Christ. If you would read Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4, you will know the truth about who the folks are as the GM.

 

[keras]

Paradise (where deceased believers go immediately after death) is not a spiritual place, as proven in Luke 16:19-31.

The story about the rich man and Abraham, is not a reality, just an illustration of how our time on earth is the only chance we have to get right with God. Thinking it is actual, shows how gullible you are,

The GM are from martyrs in the Trib. The martyrs are unbelievers who will be converted as Christians, by the 144k and 2W.

Maybe the 2W and the 144k will convert a few, but never a great multitude, proved by Rev 13 where it says; All the world will follow the beast.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The story about the rich man and Abraham, is not a reality, just an illustration of how our time on earth is the only chance we have to get right with God. Thinking it is actual, shows how gullible you are,

Maybe the 2W and the 144k will convert a few, but never a great multitude, proved by Rev 13 where it says; All the world will follow the beast.

Why do say Luke 16:

The story about the rich man and Abraham, is not a reality, just an illustration of how our time on earth is the only chance we have to get right with God. Thinking it is actual, shows how gullible you are,

Maybe the 2W and the 144k will convert a few, but never a great multitude, proved by Rev 13 where it says; All the world will follow the beast.

Jesus says Paradise exists: Luke 23;42-43 (ESV): And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Keras, where did Jesus go immediately upon death? Where did the thief, who died in Christ, immediately go upon death?

This verse says Hades is real: Luke 16:23 (ESV): and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. He lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Where did the rich man, who died in sin, immediately go upon desth?

Prove Luke 16:29-31 are not true.

Rev 7:3-4 (ESV): sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

The 144k are on Earth only with unbelievers (those who dwell on the earth), as of Rev 9:4 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads

The 144k (sealed servants of God) save a great multitude:

Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

 

[tailgator]

No
Jesus comes and his elect are gathered after the tribulation.He does not come before the tribulation .

 

[keras]

Prove Luke 16:29-31 are not true.

You are the one who has to have the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus, factual. Where is your proof?
I simply blow that idea out of the water with: 1 Peter 3:19, where Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison.

No
Jesus comes and his elect are gathered after the tribulation.He does not come before the tribulation .

Matthew 24:30-31 are crystal clear: Only after the GT, is His people gathered' To where His is, [will be] in Jerusalem.

 

[Oseas]

Before the PRE-TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE, the period of sorrows that is already underway must push the nations in total decadence, once led through excruciating governance and declining, and tending to move towards total chaos. And the Jews will shout out to the manifestation of the messiah. Here's what they are saying about their messiah:

In every generation there is a scion of the House of David who has the potential to be the Moshiach
Moshiach 101 The Identity of Moshiach
Who Is Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah)?

The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.

Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.

In every generation there is a scion of the House of David who has the potential to be the MoshiachDuring the Messianic Era, the Moshiach will serve a dual role. He will be a MONARCH, ruling over all of humanity with kindness and justice, and upholding the Law of the Torah—613 commandments for the Jews, and 7 for the non-Jews. He will also be the ultimate teacher, the conduit for the deepest and most profound dimensions of the Torah which will then be revealed by G‑d.

How are we to identify the Moshiach?
Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either).
The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who
(a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot,
(b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and
(c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."
If the person succeeded in all these endeavors, and then rebuilds the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and facilitates the ingathering of the Jews to the Land of Israel—then we are certain that he is the Moshiach.

~~~~~~~~~~~..~.

Knowing that the Moshiach(the Jewish Messiah) IS A FALSE LAMB(John 5:43-47) , and Revelation 13:11 reveals him as the MAN Beast coming up out of the earth(Israel,the clay, now dry land); and he has two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon, then I made a commentary in the Jewish site, saying to them:

Moshiach was already born decades ago, but his time to introduce himself will be only after the election of the next and last Pope, so his personal manifestation may happen very soon, believe. And he will be enthroned in Jerusalem, and the next and last Pope will schedule a visit to Israel, there they will both discuss the construction of an Universal religious kingdom, Catholicism already has a gigantic religious structure that will be taken advantage or appropriated by Judaism and Catholicism through their leaders to build a religious and Universal Kingdom.

That said, we must be ready, see what will happen in the first half of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27, as is revealed in Revelation 13:5-9

GEt READY

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are the one who has to have the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus, factual. Where is your proof?
I simply blow that idea out of the water with: 1 Peter 3:19, where Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Matthew 24:30-31 are crystal clear: Only after the GT, is His people gathered' To where His is, [will be] in Jerusalem.

You’re the one who said, “The story about the rich man and Abraham, is not a reality, …”

The burden is on you to prove they are “not a reality.”

1 Peter 3:19-20 (ESV): in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, …

Those who were disobedient in Noah’s days died in sin. Those folks went to Hades, which is a hellish prison. It is not Hell, as that is the lake of fire.

Matt 24:31 is a gathering to where? The best guess is it goes to Matt 25:34-40.

Matt 24:31 is not the rapture because it is not a “gathering unto Him,” as in 2 Th 2:1, John 14:3, 1 Th 4:17, and Rev 4:1. Therefore, there is no way the rapture occurs in the Trib.

The rapture will occur pre-Trib, just as Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” “You” is a reference to believers; “those” is a reference to unbelievers.

All references in the the Trib of “those who dwell on the earth,” are unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture, to suffer in 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You are the one who has to have the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus, factual. Where is your proof?
I simply blow that idea out of the water with: 1 Peter 3:19, where Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Matthew 24:30-31 are crystal clear: Only after the GT, is His people gathered' To where His is, [will be] in Jerusalem.

I'm not a pre trib rapture believer, but ah, parables are definitely truthful and contain actual entities and people, such as Lazarus and Abraham in the parable in question in Luke 16

A simple litmus test of the reality factor is in Mark 4:13-15, where we learn about how to understand all parables.

In that parable there are 3 parties, God, people and Satan. Is Satan real? Is God real? Are people real?

Of course these are all real agents so, parables are in fact quite real, though not 100% empirically provable because 2 out of the 3 parties are unseen, that being God and Satan

Anyone who believes in God believes in invisible Agency and has the faith to perceive same to a limited unseen extent

Luke 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The parable, the seed, the Word, Jesus

These are not easy matters to sort through, as our confines of the 5 senses tend to force us into strictly literal sights and understandings

The "reality" is that Satan is bruised under our own 2 feet, presumably at the finale, thee end of this wicked age

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

[Oseas]

Before the PRE-TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE, the period of sorrows that is already underway must push the nations in total decadence, once led through excruciating governance and declining, and tending to move towards total chaos. And the Jews will shout out to the manifestation of the messiah.

Here's what they are saying about their messiah:
In every generation there is a scion of the House of David who has the potential to be the Moshiach
Moshiach 101 The Identity of Moshiach
Who Is Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah)?

The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.

Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.

In every generation there is a scion of the House of David who has the potential to be the MoshiachDuring the Messianic Era, the Moshiach will serve a dual role. He will be a MONARCH, ruling over all of humanity with kindness and justice, and upholding the Law of the Torah—613 commandments for the Jews, and 7 for the non-Jews. He will also be the ultimate teacher, the conduit for the deepest and most profound dimensions of the Torah which will then be revealed by G‑d.

How are we to identify the Moshiach?
Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either).
The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who,
(a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot,
(b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (FALSE PROPHET)
(c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."
If the person succeeded in all these endeavors, and then rebuilds the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and facilitates the ingathering of the Jews to the Land of Israel—then we are certain that he is the Moshiach.

~~~~~~~~~~~..~.

Knowing that the Moshiach(the Jewish Messiah) IS A FALSE LAMB(John 5:43-47) , and Revelation 13:11 reveals him as the MAN Beast coming up out of the earth(Israel,the clay, now dry land); and he has two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon, then I made a commentary in the Jewish site, saying to them:

Moshiach was already born decades ago, but his time to introduce himself will be only after the election of the next and last Pope, so his personal manifestation may happen very soon, believe. And he will be enthroned in Jerusalem, and the next and last Pope will schedule a visit to Israel, there they will both discuss the construction of an Universal religious kingdom, Catholicism already has a gigantic religious structure that will be taken advantage or appropriated by Judaism and Catholicism through their leaders to build a religious and Universal Kingdom.

That said, we must be ready, see what will happen in the first half of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27, as is revealed in Revelation 13:5-9

GEt READY

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 say:
9 His coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (They believed not in JESUS-John 1:11)
11 And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (they will believe in the false messiah-John 5:43-47-, an IMPOSTER, a false lamb-Revelation 13:11:14
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,but had pleasure in unrighteousness.(Matthew 23: 33-35)
Daniel 12:10-12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried;
but the wicked shall do wickedly:
none of the wicked shall understand;
the wise shall understand.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/Who-Is-Moshiach-the-Jewish-Messiah.htm