The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Der Alte]

Some positions of Christian Universalism know that the devil and his messengers are in fact eternally condemned. So no issues with fulfillment on that count.
As to repentance, we are tasked as Paul was in Acts 26:18, to turn from darkness and the power of the devil. That doesn't mean any of us make ourselves sinless, but you'd think it might start with being truthful about being a sinner just like everyone else, Romans 3:9, and that our sin, again like everyone else, is in fact of the devil, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15
It's problematic to consider that our temptations are internal and of our adversary, because our enemy is quite frankly, much smarter than we are, apparently
So, just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan in Peter, so He can, will and does speak to each of us as well.
In this the person can be saved or will be at their end of life as the enemies of the Gospel in Romans 11:26-32, all of Israel, shall be saved
and yet the devil (and his messengers-demons) is and remains judged and condemned within everyone
One Sword. Two different workings

Can you make that work for these passages?
Jeremiah 13:10-11
(10) even this evil people, that refuse to hear My words, that walk in the stubbornness of their heart, and are gone after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, that it be as this girdle, which is profitable for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Can you make that work for these passages?
Jeremiah 13:10-11
(10) even this evil people, that refuse to hear My words, that walk in the stubbornness of their heart, and are gone after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, that it be as this girdle, which is profitable for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Of course. You can read it with the fact of Mark 4:15 in mind and you should theoretically see more than just a person or the people. You'll also see the tempter or devils within them all. All have sin, Romans 3:9. Sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, Romans 11:8

Hosea 4:12

My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan in Peter, Jesus not only can but will say to each of us, depart from me, and it should be no mystery who is being addressed. Unless one is under the influences and can't see it because of same

 

[Der Alte]

Of course. You can read it with the fact of Mark 4:15 in mind and you should theoretically see more than just a person or the people. You'll also see the tempter or devils within them all. All have sin, Romans 3:9. Sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, Romans 11:8

Hosea 4:12

My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan in Peter, Jesus not only can but will say to each of us, depart from me, and it should be no mystery who is being addressed. Unless one is under the influences and can't see it because of same

This does not address my post in any way. None of the vss. I quoted say anything about God only addresssing or dealing with the "devil within them."

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

This does not address my post in any way. None of the vss. I quoted say anything about God only addresssing or dealing with the "devil within them."

Every scripture engages that fact: Mark 4:15

 

[Der Alte]

Every scripture engages that fact: Mark 4:15

Another shot in the dark that does NOT address my post.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Another shot in the dark that does NOT address my post.

Obviously you can't factor in the shill

 

[Der Alte]

Obviously you can't factor in the shill

I have a Master's in Theology but I don't have a clue what this is supposed to mean.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I have a Master's in Theology but I don't have a clue what this is supposed to mean.

I always find it interesting that highly educated people miss the most obvious matters

 

[David Lamb]

I always find it interesting that highly educated people miss the most obvious matters

He might be like me, and have never heard the word "shill" before. I looked it up in a dictionary, and found that it apparently means:

someone who helps another person to persuade people to buy something, especially by pretending to be a satisfied customer

But how that meaning fits with a discussion on the New Testament letter to the Romans, I have no idea.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

He might be like me, and have never heard the word "shill" before. I looked it up in a dictionary, and found that it apparently means:

someone who helps another person to persuade people to buy something, especially by pretending to be a satisfied customer

But how that meaning fits with a discussion on the New Testament letter to the Romans, I have no idea.

Mark 4:15 is a picture of the scape goat, the devil. The shill who is involved with all sin and who will take the whole rap, the permanent fall for all sin

For people however, here's the deal:

2 Cor 5:

19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

IF believers are still counting sins against people, I know they are under the influences of the devil themselves, and particularly so when they conveniently let themselves off the hook

 

[David Lamb]

Mark 4:15 is a picture of the scape goat, the devil. The shill who is involved with all sin and who will take the whole rap, the permanent fall for all sin

For people however, here's the deal:

2 Cor 5:

19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

IF believers are still counting sins against people, I know they are under the influences of the devil themselves, and particularly so when they conveniently let themselves off the hook

Thanks. I agree that Christians are wrong to be blind to their own sins whilst eager to point out the sins of others.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Thanks. I agree that Christians are wrong to be blind to their own sins whilst eager to point out the sins of others.

And, it's almost impossible for us to "CONfess that our sins" are "of the devil."

Try it sometime. You'll feel the words sticking in your craw

 

[Der Alte]

Mark 4:15 is a picture of the scape goat, the devil. The shill who is involved with all sin and who will take the whole rap, the permanent fall for all sin

For people however, here's the deal:

2 Cor 5:

19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

IF believers are still counting sins against people, I know they are under the influences of the devil themselves, and particularly so when they conveniently let themselves off the hook

None of this really addresses the vss. I quoted. See e.g.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them,[not the devil] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, [not the devil] even the kings[not the devil] that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, ,[not the devil] and the prophets, [not the devil] and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [not the devil] with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them [not the devil] one against another, even the fathers [not the devil] and the sons [not the devil] together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.[not the devil]

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

None of this really addresses the vss. I quoted. See e.g.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them,[not the devil] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, [not the devil] even the kings[not the devil] that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, ,[not the devil] and the prophets, [not the devil] and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [not the devil] with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them [not the devil] one against another, even the fathers [not the devil] and the sons [not the devil] together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.[not the devil]

You still don't get the picture.

Mark 4:15 was a reality for THEM all

You just see people. One of the most elemental mistakes in theology. Scripture doesn't see that way

Jesus showed us that Satan enters the heart where the Word is sown and SINS via theft. Also spiritually BLINDS.

Where did Jesus show us all the location of devils?

If you can say, "in people" you'd be better off for the understanding. But of course that will have to include you as well. We're all subject to internal temptations via the tempter who is NOT a person or the same as the people

 

[Der Alte]

You still don't get the picture.

Mark 4:15 was a reality for THEM all

You just see people. One of the most elemental mistakes in theology. Scripture doesn't see that way

Jesus showed us that Satan enters the heart where the Word is sown and SINS via theft. Also spiritually BLINDS.

Where did Jesus show us all the location of devils?

If you can say, "in people" you'd be better off for the understanding. But of course that will have to include you as well. We're all subject to internal temptations via the tempter who is NOT a person or the same as the people

Thank you for your unsupported private opinion. If you can, cite some scripture which makes this a rule for each and every situation. Once again I cite Jeremiah 13.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, [people not Satan] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, [people not Satan] even the kings [people not Satan] that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, [people not Satan] and the prophets, [people not Satan] and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [people not Satan] with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them [people not Satan] one against another, even the fathers [people not Satan] and the sons [people not Satan] together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. [people not Satan]
If you can, cite me some scripture which clearly shows that God was talking about Satan here and not the individual. Repetition of previous claims is not evidence.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Thank you for your unsupported private opinion

Except for thousands of examples from New Testament scriptures.

Like I said, too bad you missed the obvious

I read a theology doctoral thesis about Biblical law a few years ago and thought it was a shame there was not a single reference to the devil and his messengers. You'd probably think that was not a problem

 

[Der Alte]

Except for thousands of examples from New Testament scriptures.

Like I said, too bad you missed the obvious

I read a theology doctoral thesis about Biblical law a few years ago and thought it was a shame there was not a single reference to the devil and his messengers. You'd probably think that was not a problem

IOW you only response is to repeat what you said before without explaining how in
Jeremiah 13:13-14 my explanation is not correct.
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, [plural people not Satan, singular] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, [plural people not Satan, singular] even the kings [plural people not Satan, singular] that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, [plural people not Satan, singular] and the prophets, [plural people not Satan, singular] and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [people not Satan, singular]with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them [plural people not Satan, singular] one against another, even the fathers [plural people not Satan, singular] and the sons [plural people not Satan, singular] together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. [plural people not Satan, singular]
If you can, cite me some scripture which clearly shows that God was talking about Satan here and not the individual. Repetition of previous claims is not evidence.
Please show me in scripture where anyone ever understood God to be talking about Satan and not the individuals identified.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

IOW you only response is to repeat what you said before without explaining how in
Jeremiah 13:13-14 my explanation is not correct.
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, [plural people not Satan, singular] Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, [plural people not Satan, singular] even the kings [plural people not Satan, singular] that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, [plural people not Satan, singular] and the prophets, [plural people not Satan, singular] and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [people not Satan, singular]with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them [plural people not Satan, singular] one against another, even the fathers [plural people not Satan, singular] and the sons [plural people not Satan, singular] together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. [plural people not Satan, singular]

The insertion of just people is the black hole in your theology.

All have sin, Romans 3:9 and sin is of the devil, Mark 4:15, 1 john 3:8 and many others

There is no "just people" in the scriptures other than God in Christ

You just keep repeating the same theological gaffe because you miss the most obvious matters of the other unseen agents

It's a very common form of blindness because Mark 4:15 really does happen to us. Do you agree? Or are you going to play the exemption card now?

 

[Der Alte]

The insertion of just people is the black hole in your theology.
All have sin, Romans 3:9 and sin is of the devil, Mark 4:15, 1 john 3:8 and many others
There is no "just people" in the scriptures other than God in Christ
You just keep repeating the same theological gaffe because you miss the most obvious matters of the other unseen agents
It's a very common form of blindness because Mark 4:15 really does happen to us. Do you agree? Or are you going to play the exemption card now?

Empty accusations with no scriptural support. "the black hole in your theology"."same theological gaffe ...the most obvious matters... other unseen agents,""common form of blindness""play the exemption card" Show me scriptural evidence that when God was punishing Israel in Jeremiah 13 He was really punishing satan and not the Israelites.
Here are some more verses for your to twist and make them say something else.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you:[people not satan] depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up [people not Satan] to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts.[people not Satan]
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up [people not Satan]unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over [people not Satan] to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Empty accusations with no scriptural support

I provided enough citings to see if you have grasp of the subject matter.

You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault

Even the citing you give has the black hole of the typical one sided voided picture missing the vital party to the drama, our adversary, the devil.

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan...do the math on who is saying "Lord Lord."

All have, present tense have sin. Romans 3:9
Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

You know, the missing party repeatedly pointed out for you now and repeatedly ignored.

I know who's doing the denying. It's not even you