The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

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So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or free-spirited. Now, if anyone hears that word, they think of homosexual orientation. The word "gay" is simply not used in conversation as it was 100 years ago and is completely understood differently.
It's possible that your "Greek scholars" are late comers who were trained to believe that the word "aionios" means "eternal" when the historic evidence for it points otherwise.
What do I mean by historic evidence? I mean that the teaching of Apokatastasis was primarily found in the Greek-speaking East, whereas the Latin West developed the idea of God creating an eternal torment chamber for sinners. Now if you have any sort of investigative mind, you have to ask yourself how it was possible that those Greek-speaking fathers of the Church could believe in something that violates Scripture if "aionios" really means "eternal." There is other evidence from how Plato and other Greek-speaking ancients used the word. So unless you are willing to ascribe utter dishonesty to men like St. Isaac of Syria, as well as the many others who spoke the language and understood it as their native tongue, then you must believe that your "scholars" were trained wrong because they didn't go deep enough into history nor examine all the evidence.
And as for the refutation of the blog spot, what evidence would you accept? I don't think you will accept any evidence that contradicts your cherished ideal that God is just waiting to get His hands on sinners and torment them. You, and many other hellists, strike me as having the same feeling as Tertullian and Aquinas had, which is that they looked forward to leaning over the parapets of heaven to watch sinners get what is due them and enjoy the spectacle.
Anyone with half a heart should find the idea of eternal punishment to be both dreadful and sad, not to mention a smear on the very character of the God who enfleshed Himself to suffer a horrendous death that we might be freed from death.

"It's possible that your "Greek scholars" are late comers who were trained to believe that the word "aionios" means "eternal" when the historic evidence for it points otherwise."​

Nonsense. I can show conclusively from 20 vss. in the N.T. alone that 'aionios" means "eternal."
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T. [2% of total]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition here “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]

 

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[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul, Peter and John define/describe “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
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Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

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It's possible that your "Greek scholars" are late comers who were trained to believe that the word "aionios" means "eternal" when the historic evidence for it points otherwise.

What do I mean by historic evidence? I mean that the teaching of Apokatastasis was primarily found in the Greek-speaking East, whereas the Latin West developed the idea of God creating an eternal torment chamber for sinners. Now if you have any sort of investigative mind, you have to ask yourself how it was possible that those Greek-speaking fathers of the Church could believe in something that violates Scripture if "aionios" really means "eternal."
***
Anyone with half a heart should find the idea of eternal punishment to be both dreadful and sad, not to mention a smear on the very character of the God who enfleshed Himself to suffer a horrendous death that we might be freed from death.

…..Many misguided folks claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow associated with Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים /Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
Islam began about 620AD, Islam also has a fiery place of punishment which they called Gahannam.
As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.”
…..Disclaimer: There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, centuries before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the patently false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of Ge Hinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened!

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment.​

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:

Gehinnom

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf

Encyclopaedia Judaica - Vol.07 (Fey-Gor) (jevzajcg.me)
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. Xxxii, 11]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
• (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [αδη/hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:26
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-24
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 18 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous.
He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc?
Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

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[Light of the East]

I found the website by doing a google search on this sentence from your post "Verse 1 In Jewish Apocalyptic Language, 'heaven and earth' are a reference to the Old Covenant kingdom passing away." And not only this paragraph word for word but other paragraphs from your post are at the website. And you did not cite your source making it appear that this was your work..

Well, that's interesting. Let me try it.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, that's interesting. Let me try it.

I posted the link Amigo! Here it is again.

The Intellectual Vacuity of Edward Feser – Part 1

Edward Feser is a Thomist philosopher and ardent (and by ardent I mean he really gets his knickers in a knot thinking of God saving all people!) damnationist. David Bentley Hart, the brilliant Orth…

http4281.com

 

[Light of the East]

…..Many misguided folks claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow associated with Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים /Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.

Interesting because that is not what several rabbinic sites online have described regarding Sheol. The other thing is to wonder just how much the Jews had been Hellenized when they came to believe in this.

Islam began about 620AD, Islam also has a fiery place of punishment which they called Gahannam.
As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.”
…..Disclaimer: There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in this post.

Islam, a darkened religion of demonism, is hardly a source you should want to cite.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna​

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Except that there was no teaching of an eternal place of burning torment anywhere in the Old Testament. The translations in Western Bibles are extremely inaccurate in this regard, as they translate "olam" as eternal and Sheol as hell. Where is the concept of eternal, fiery torment in the Old Testament? I don't see it? There is, in fact, a rather clear avoidance of any description of the afterlife in the Old Testament.

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, centuries before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the patently false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of Ge Hinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened!

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).​

Again, look at the time period in which this man lived. 30 BC to 90 AD. I will do some due diligence on Greek pagan beliefs so that I am not talking out of the top of my hat, but as I understand it, pagan concepts of God were always of a spiteful, hateful, angry deity who had to be appeased. After all, look at the Jews themselves who, in utter spiritual darkness, threw their children into the fires of Baal to insure good crops. These people are hardly a good source for proper understanding of God and His nature.
.

“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]​

“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment.​

​

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].​

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.​

These are very good quotes to challenge my belief and I will do some work on checking them out, as well as the linguistic history of Judaism.

[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:​

Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.​

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).​

In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.​

Link:​

Gehinnom

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

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http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf​

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Encyclopaedia Judaica - Vol.07 (Fey-Gor) (jevzajcg.me)​

= = = = = = = = = =​

[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.​

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. Xxxii, 11]:​

"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.​

Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."​

Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41​

This is, of course, where we disagree. Aionios = agelong.

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"​

• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"​

When Jesus was speaking, Gehenna was in full force, burning trash and corpses day and night, where the worms (maggots) had a constant feast of flesh and other debris. Jesus was warning those listening of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, after which thousands of bodies of the slain were thrown into the fire.

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50​

You have, as most people do when trying to hold on to an agenda, taken this out of context. This is not speaking about the end of the world and judgment thereof. This is speaking about the end of the age, which happened in AD 70 when God used the Roman armies of Titus to destroy Jerusalem, just as Christ warned in Matthew 23-25. The fiery furnace is the fire of God's love. That is the only fire that exists in the next world:

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

And what He consumes is our sins:

1 Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

This passage, 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15 makes it clear that all shall be tried by fire, the "wood, hay, stubble" shall be burned up in the fires of God's love, but the person shall be saved.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The concept of a vicious, vengeful God who burns His enemies comes from paganism, not from the Scriptures. Fire in the Scriptures is most often shown as cleansing and purifying.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

Absolutely does not prove your point. Jesus was warning those Jews listening that if they persecuted the disciples, they would be better to be drowned than to go through what they went through when Jerusalem was destroyed. Read the accounts of the horrors that took place in Jerusalem when it was under seige.

 

[Der Alte]

Interesting because that is not what several rabbinic sites online have described regarding Sheol. The other thing is to wonder just how much the Jews had been Hellenized when they came to believe in this.

What modern Jews believe or teach is irrelevant I quoted the 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud and the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica

Islam, a darkened religion of demonism, is hardly a source you should want to cite.

You misinterpreted my reason. They copied from the Jews.

Except that there was no teaching of an eternal place of burning torment anywhere in the Old Testament. The translations in Western Bibles are extremely inaccurate in this regard, as they translate "olam" as eternal and Sheol as hell. Where is the concept of eternal, fiery torment in the Old Testament? I don't see it? There is, in fact, a rather clear avoidance of any description of the afterlife in the Old Testament.

Only if you ignore the vss. from the O.T. which I quoted. as you are doing.

Again, look at the time period in which this man lived. 30 BC to 90 AD. I will do some due diligence on Greek pagan beliefs so that I am not talking out of the top of my hat, but as I understand it, pagan concepts of God were always of a spiteful, hateful, angry deity who had to be appeased. After all, look at the Jews themselves who, in utter spiritual darkness, threw their children into the fires of Baal to insure good crops. These people are hardly a good source for proper understanding of God and His nature.

Who are you talking about? This does not not address anything in my post.

These are very good quotes to challenge my belief and I will do some work on checking them out, as well as the linguistic history of Judaism.

Do what you have to do but I am not interested in unsupported personal opinion.

This is, of course, where we disagree. Aionios = agelong.

Nonsense. You totally ignored the 20+ vss. I quoted. And impossible "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. Is the adjective "aionios" so complicated that it takes two or more English words to translate it? Read my vss, again.

When Jesus was speaking, Gehenna was in full force, burning trash and corpses day and night, where the worms (maggots) had a constant feast of flesh and other debris. Jesus was warning those listening of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, after which thousands of bodies of the slain were thrown into the fire.

Nonsense. I will address this in separate post. There was NEVER a burning trash dump in the valley of gehinnom. You must have ignored the references to Gehenna in the Jewish Encyclopedia which I quoted.

You have, as most people do when trying to hold on to an agenda, taken this out of context. This is not speaking about the end of the world and judgment thereof. This is speaking about the end of the age, which happened in AD 70 when God used the Roman armies of Titus to destroy Jerusalem, just as Christ warned in Matthew 23-25. The fiery furnace is the fire of God's love. That is the only fire that exists in the next world:

Sorry I am not interested in your unsupported opinions. As I quoted from Jewish sources before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both Ge hinnom and sheol, written in the 225BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and hades.

 

[Der Alte]

***
When Jesus was speaking, Gehenna was in full force, burning trash and corpses day and night, where the worms (maggots) had a constant feast of flesh and other debris. Jesus was warning those listening of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, after which thousands of bodies of the slain were thrown into the fire. ***

As I said nonsense.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.​

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992​

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/NTeSources/NTArticles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm

​

…..Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”​

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)​

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:​

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)​

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),​

The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.​

…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.​

...​

Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.​

​

https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

Jerusalem’s Garbage​

The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com​

​

And OBTW this is what credible research looks like.​

 

[Light of the East]

The evidence seems overwhelming. There was no garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

I shall have to stop making this reference.

**sigh** And it was such a nice reference. LOL!

 

[Der Alte]

The evidence seems overwhelming. There was no garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

I shall have to stop making this reference.

**sigh** And it was such a nice reference. LOL!

Ah, but you do err. There was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem but it was the next valley over the Kidron valley not the valley of Hinnom.

 

[RileyG]

I think Paul made it very clear that those who practice sin will not inherit eternal life. See Romans 1.

 

[Fervent]

The modern universalism is not the same thing as apokatastasis found in the Fathers, because the neoplatonic philosophy that lays at the center of their concept of human nature as a universal, combined with the nature of being vs non-being, significantly alters the concept from an individualist view of humanity that dominates modern thinking. Where some ventured(Origen) into what universalism entails today, the church anathematized. Orthodox fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor who spoke of apokatastasis make clear references to eternal torment within their works that would contradict modern universalist teaching.

 

[RileyG]

The modern universalism is not the same thing as apokatastasis found in the Fathers, because the neoplatonic philosophy that lays at the center of their concept of human nature as a universal, combined with the nature of being vs non-being, significantly alters the concept from an individualist view of humanity that dominates modern thinking. Where some ventured(Origen) into what universalism entails today, the church anathematized. Orthodox fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor who spoke of apokatastasis make clear references to eternal torment within their works that would contradict modern universalist teaching.

Interesting. I didn't know the Eastern Churches taught "eternal torment" but saw the love of God as pain for those who rejected him.

 

[Fervent]

Interesting. I didn't know the Eastern Churches taught "eternal torment" but saw the love of God as pain for those who rejected him.

The perdition of the wicked is eternal, its not quite the view that dominates the discussion because the fire of God remains primarily purgatory but the same water that softens the potato hardens the egg.

 

[RileyG]

The perdition of the wicked is eternal, its not quite the view that dominates the discussion because the fire of God remains primarily purgatory but the same water that softens the potato hardens the egg.

The East rejects purgatory.

 

[Fervent]

The East rejects purgatory.

As a place, yes. But it is widely taught that souls are purified after death. When I said "purgatory" I was using it as an adjective, not a noun.

 

[RileyG]

As a place, yes. But it is widely taught that souls are purified after death. When I said "purgatory" I was using it as an adjective, not a noun.

Ah, gotcha!

 

[Light of the East]

The perdition of the wicked is eternal, its not quite the view that dominates the discussion because the fire of God remains primarily purgatory but the same water that softens the potato hardens the egg.

And where do you get that usage of fire from the Bible?

Perhaps you might tell me what the Scriptures say about fire.

 

[Der Alte]

As a place, yes. But it is widely taught that souls are purified after death. When I said "purgatory" I was using it as an adjective, not a noun.

Doesn't line up with scripture.

Jeremiah 13:10-13 [ca. 626-587 b.c.]
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not by and by I will save them.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

If there is no more death after vs. 4 then the 8 groups of unrighteous thrown into the LOF, vs 11, do not die.
The last chapter in the Bible.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Where are those "unjust" and "filthy?"

Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Six more verses, the end.

 

[Fervent]

And where do you get that usage of fire from the Bible?

Perhaps you might tell me what the Scriptures say about fire.

Considering the amount of dancing universalists have to do to overcome not only the Scriptures but also church anathema and council rulings that are affirmed every year within the Orthodox church, I see no reason in trying to argue with someone who has convinced themselves that what should be obvious is not true. So no, I won't be discussing the Scripture with you.