The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Light of the East]

I do believe in authority. Just not the way the apostolic traditions do it. They think you just touch the person and say some words and that gives authority. It doesn't.

Okay.

So in your understanding, how is authority given? By what means?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Okay.

So in your understanding, how is authority given? By what means?

Revelation given by God.

 

[Light of the East]

Revelation given by God.

That sounds like you are saying that a man (or woman, for that matter) could say "I have a revelation from God and I am God's special agent to bring the truth to the world." Is that what you mean? Could you clarify what you mean by "revelation." Thank you.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

That sounds like you are saying that a man (or woman, for that matter) could say "I have a revelation from God and I am God's special agent to bring the truth to the world." Is that what you mean? Could you clarify what you mean by "revelation." Thank you.

No one appoints themselves. A person speaks/acts and people judge if it is from God. If it is thought it is from God by others, then they pass the first test. Next comes if what they say comes/is true. I'm not saying a person appoints themself. Not even Christ did that. But Christ is what our faith is built on. So how do you suppose that happened? Did someone lay hands on Christ and appoint Him head of the Church? We can go down the list of people throughout history who had revelation and this is proportionate to the degree of authority they have. I believe in a heavenly kingdom come down to earth. All of David's brothers were passed over by Samuel but were the only picks worthy according to the wisdom of the world. God does not run things by the same wisdom as men. In fact, we get a pretty good clue of what the kingdom of heaven is like from the Beatitudes. That's about as good a metric as any.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

@Light of the East, the way I see laying on of hands is like consecrating a marriage. The bride has already accepted the proposal.

The laying on of hands has no power in and of itself. It's like saying I went to seminary and so therefore I am qualified to be a pastor whether or not I actually meet the qualifications of being a pastor or not.

So it is not like I throw out the idea of authority wholesale and I align more with the apostolic traditions than Protestants, but the apostolic traditions put all the onus on who is an authority on human effort just like Protestants do.

Most of the people who were chosen to do things for God were chosen before they were even born and oftentimes in spite of what the wisdom of the age has to say about things. In other words, if God has chosen you, then you WILL do what God has called you to do. To argue against this would be like saying that Jeremiah could have prophecied something different if he wanted to and we all know that is not how prophecy works. The revelation is given TO the person. It is not any human, even the one chosen, who chooses what revelation it is they receive.

 

[Der Alte]

Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.
I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.
Looking forward to it!
Peace,
Daniel

Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective vss. out-of-context.
Neither God, the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever say that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike will be saved.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear....
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "I never knew you" He does not mean by and by I will know you.

Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

The last book in the Bible

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

If there is no more death after Rev 21:4 the 8 groups of unrighteous thrown into the lake of fire, vs. 8, do not die.
The last chapter in the last book, no more salvation, no more death.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Where are those unjust and filthy?

Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [outside the new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Six more vss. The End.

 

[Light of the East]

Of course, you are wrong again. The Revelation of St. John is not the end of the world. It is the end of the age - the Old Covenant Age - which took place when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. There are numerous clues in Revelation which show us this, but most people miss them.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Verse 1 In Jewish Apocalyptic Language, “heaven and earth” are a reference to the Old Covenant kingdom passing away. As discussed earlier in the book, the reference is to the Temple in Jerusalem, the very heart of the Kingdom of Heaven. This is precisely what happened in 70 AD, prophesied by Christ when He spoke the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:1–9. The fig tree, national Israel, had borne no fruit. The owner of the vineyard gave it one more year to bear fruit, then it would be cut down. The added year ended in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, which according to Matthew 21:33–46, was the end of national Israel as the special husbandmen of the vineyard of God, the kingdom on earth. Not understanding Jewish Apocalyptic Language, it was not too long before Greek and Roman Christians began seeing this as a prophecy of the destruction of the visible earth and the heavens above us.

Verse 2 Some important wording here is totally missed. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. What is this New Jerusalem? The verse itself tells us. It is the bride. Who is the bride of Christ but the New Covenant church? God gives to the world the church in all Her beauty to bring salvation to us. How can the church come down to the world if this is the end of all things? The church came down to the world in fullness on the day of Pentecost.

Verse 3 The tabernacle is the dwelling place of God among men. Everything is changing now with the end of the Old Covenant. There is a new Jerusalem, the church, come down to be among men. Within each parish of the church is a tabernacle where God dwells in the Eucharist. Everything Judaism had is found new in Christianity.

Verse 4 This could be one of those “Ah hah! Gotcha!” verses for those who believe this is speaking of the end of all things. In discussing verses six and seven, I will show you why this is impossible. Those who believe that this chapter is speaking of the eschatological end of all things will snidely ask, “No pain? No sorrow? Who are you kidding? Look around you!” At first, I was a bit stumped by this until I realized that this passage is speaking of the celestial view of reality and not of this illusory life. For the Christian, there really is no pain or sorrow. We have been redeemed. Our 21st century lazy and self-indulgent lives have entirely missed what it means to be a Christian. This verse is speaking of the spiritual reality for the believer. Death no longer has dominion over us. Look at the joy of the martyrs as they die with hymns of praise on their lips. Truly suffering has no hold over them.

Here is the time indicator which shows that Revelation is not the end of the world:

Verse 6 This verse has a time indicator showing that this passage cannot be the end of the world. At the end of all things, according to Infernalists, your eternal state is settled. Either you are in Christ, and thus not thirsty, or are separated from Him, and will be thirsting but will get nothing to drink forever. This is not what the verse says. It says those who are thirsting may come and drink freely. This cannot be a believer, since he already has rivers of water flowing from within, quenching his spiritual thirst. It can only mean the unbeliever who comes to recognize his thirst for the living water of Christ and appeals for a drink. This is the promise of the Gospel, which went out to all the world and made millions of converts. The message of God’s love made men and women thirst to experience that love. If this passage in Revelation is about the end of all things, this invitation is ridiculous because the wicked, according to Infernalist teaching, will never have their desire (thirst) for God satisfied.

Verse 7 Another time indicator showing this is about things that are yet to come. How does Jesus say “he that shall overcome (future tense) shall inherit all things” if this passage is about the end of the world, and the issue of inheriting eternal life or being disinherited is completely settled? If you think this is the end of the world, then there is no “shall inherit” because those who are in heaven with Christ have already inherited and those who you assume are in hell forever cannot inherit. The way Infernalists read Revelation 20, everything is finished, and you are either redeemed with Christ or damned in the eternal lake of fire, with no opportunity to overcome. Instead, here is an invitation open to all: overcome your passions, overcome the sin that binds you, and you shall inherit that which has been prepared for all my children from the beginning of all things.

Verse 8 Infernalists teach that this verse is speaking about casting sinners into an everlasting fire of hell. It is not. It is a warning to those who shall remain stubbornly attached to sin. They shall not only experience the first death, that of their physical bodies, but also the second death of being cast into the smelting furnace, described here as the lake of fire. Again, remember that we are speaking of symbolic language here. It is not a literal fire as described by the warped imaginations of some Western theologians. There is only one fire in the next life and in the ages of ages to come–the passionate fire of God’s love, of which early fathers such as St. Isaac the Syrian spoke. Our God is a consuming fire, and what is consumed is all that is His enemy–death, the grave, and all evil. We are not His enemies. We are all of us His children. Some have been, and many are to this day, extremely sick with evil, but that does not make them not His children. It makes them sick and in need of bitter medicine to become well. We can either take it now, or take it later, which will be much, much more unpleasant. The choice is yours!

Reading the rest of chapter 21 verifies this. From verse ten on we see a description of the church as the bride of Christ. We are given a description of how it appears as a celestial reality. And notice that the gates of it are never shut. The Gospel invitation remains open to all, even after death. The only restriction is that in this beautiful celestial city, no one may enter who is defiled with sin. This is the whole purpose of the fire of God’s love. It is to cleanse the impurities and bring the soul to repentance. This is the splendor of God’s love.

I will need to answer one more objection which I already can hear from those Infernalists who are determined to make this book a book of God’s eternal condemnation of sinners. It is from the closing chapter of Revelation.

Revelation 22:10 “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

God insists to John that the wicked remain wicked and the just remain just. Infernalists will point to verse eleven as a proof text that there is no repentance after death. But in their zeal to damn souls, they cruise right by yet another crucial time indicator which shows a shift in the action. Here the action returns to earth away from visions of the heavenly city. Christ speaks to John in the here and now with instructions about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. The time is at hand, [1] coming quickly–not two thousand years down the road. At hand. Quickly. These are important adjectives which show that the time for all this was about to happen. The focus of Christ has shifted back to what is about to happen to Jerusalem.

And what is about to happen to those in Jerusalem whose future is destruction? Christ says let the wicked remain wicked. They are going to reap the reward of their evil and there will be no turning from it. This is the true meaning of election. Jesus spoke about the Pharisees as having been blinded by God so that they might not see what He was teaching and be saved. He goes on to say that this is not from some dreadful decision of God made before the foundation of the world, but because this is what they have chosen and now God honors that choice and does not give them ears to hear and eyes to see. It is not about some plan of God to damn people out of the mystery of his will, but about the choices we make.

This is a fearful pronouncement that all should take to heart. Just like Pharaoh, there comes a time when God says, after you have refused and refused and refused to listen, “Okay. Have it your way. Reap what you have sown.” After the Crucifixion, national Israel was symbolically given one more year as the fig tree to repent, turn to Christ, and bear fruit. Not only did they utterly fail, but they also filled up the measure of their fathers who killed the prophets by persecuting to death Christ’s people. Now the full reward for their evil would be given, starting with their deaths in Jerusalem and their falling into the chastening hands of God. There would be no turning back. God now declares their hearts shall be hardened just as Pharaoh’s heart was. Behold I come quickly, Christ says, and to give every man in this wretched nation what they have earned according to their deeds.

The only mercy of this terrible proclamation is that God’s justice is not eternal conscious torment. As discussed before, in lex talionis, you are scourged in proportion to what you have done. Once your measure is filled up, justice is served.

Matthew and Revelation, so often quoted as proof-texts for a future Great Tribulation and eternal damnation of souls, are about national Israel. The focus of Christ is on the coming destruction. His warnings on how to be saved are focused on this event. He warns both the nation and individuals of what will happen if they repent–and what will happen if they do not. He weeps over Jerusalem, His beloved city as He has come to realize their stubbornness has sealed the fate of this once magnificent city. Yet the last book of the Bible closes with the promise of something even greater. The New Jerusalem appears to all, her gates never to be shut, and the eternal invitation is this: “Come all you who thirst, and drink freely of the water of life.”

Revelation closes and completes this wonderful story–the redemption of all creation and the victory of God over evil. In Genesis the way back into the Garden, a symbol of God’s presence, is blocked. In Revelation, the Garden of His love is opened and shall never be shut. All may enter in. Some will in this life, finding the fullness of that entrance after death. Others, after dying, will have a long journey of repentance, filled with the cleansing fire of our Father’s corrective love. But the invitation is ever extended, the mercy of God never fails, the will of God to save all shall be accomplished. This is the Good News of the Gospel.

---

[1] In Greek, the word is tachý, takh-oo' and means quickly, speedily (without delay). 2,000 years of waiting for the coming of the Lord hardly meets the qualification of quickly or speedily.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

"“Don’t harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.” After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands.
I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:3, 9, 14)

This makes no sense unless it is a prophecy. Why? One reason is that 200 million people seems to be an amount of people that could be numbered.

The idea that Revelation was written before the destruction of Jerusalem is not well thought out for this reason.

 

[Der Alte]

@Light of the East

"Verse 1 In Jewish Apocalyptic Language, “heaven and earth” are a reference to the Old Covenant kingdom passing away.​

Please support this with credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.

 

[Light of the East]

@Light of the East

"Verse 1 In Jewish Apocalyptic Language, “heaven and earth” are a reference to the Old Covenant kingdom passing away.​

Please support this with credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.

I don't know why I even bother, as you think you are smarter than everyone in the whole world, including Greek scholars.

When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed

First-Century Jews did not mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. So what did Jesus say would pass away in Matthew 5:18?

www.reenactingtheway.com

 

[Der Alte]

Of course, you are wrong again. The Revelation of St. John is not the end of the world. It is the end of the age - the Old Covenant Age - which took place when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. There are numerous clues in Revelation which show us this, but most people miss them.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Verse 1 In Jewish Apocalyptic Language, “heaven and earth” are a reference to the Old Covenant kingdom passing away. As discussed earlier in the book, the reference is to the Temple in Jerusalem, the very heart of the Kingdom of Heaven. This is precisely what happened in 70 AD, prophesied by Christ when He spoke the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:1–9. The fig tree, national Israel, had borne no fruit. The owner of the vineyard gave it one more year to bear fruit, then it would be cut down. The added year ended in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, which according to Matthew 21:33–46, was the end of national Israel as the special husbandmen of the vineyard of God, the kingdom on earth. Not understanding Jewish Apocalyptic Language, it was not too long before Greek and Roman Christians began seeing this as a prophecy of the destruction of the visible earth and the heavens above us.

Verse 2 Some important wording here is totally missed. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. What is this New Jerusalem? The verse itself tells us. It is the bride. Who is the bride of Christ but the New Covenant church? God gives to the world the church in all Her beauty to bring salvation to us. How can the church come down to the world if this is the end of all things? The church came down to the world in fullness on the day of Pentecost.

Verse 3 The tabernacle is the dwelling place of God among men. Everything is changing now with the end of the Old Covenant. There is a new Jerusalem, the church, come down to be among men. Within each parish of the church is a tabernacle where God dwells in the Eucharist. Everything Judaism had is found new in Christianity.

Verse 4 This could be one of those “Ah hah! Gotcha!” verses for those who believe this is speaking of the end of all things. In discussing verses six and seven, I will show you why this is impossible. Those who believe that this chapter is speaking of the eschatological end of all things will snidely ask, “No pain? No sorrow? Who are you kidding? Look around you!” At first, I was a bit stumped by this until I realized that this passage is speaking of the celestial view of reality and not of this illusory life. For the Christian, there really is no pain or sorrow. We have been redeemed. Our 21st century lazy and self-indulgent lives have entirely missed what it means to be a Christian. This verse is speaking of the spiritual reality for the believer. Death no longer has dominion over us. Look at the joy of the martyrs as they die with hymns of praise on their lips. Truly suffering has no hold over them.

Here is the time indicator which shows that Revelation is not the end of the world:

Verse 6 This verse has a time indicator showing that this passage cannot be the end of the world. At the end of all things, according to Infernalists, your eternal state is settled. Either you are in Christ, and thus not thirsty, or are separated from Him, and will be thirsting but will get nothing to drink forever. This is not what the verse says. It says those who are thirsting may come and drink freely. This cannot be a believer, since he already has rivers of water flowing from within, quenching his spiritual thirst. It can only mean the unbeliever who comes to recognize his thirst for the living water of Christ and appeals for a drink. This is the promise of the Gospel, which went out to all the world and made millions of converts. The message of God’s love made men and women thirst to experience that love. If this passage in Revelation is about the end of all things, this invitation is ridiculous because the wicked, according to Infernalist teaching, will never have their desire (thirst) for God satisfied.

Verse 7 Another time indicator showing this is about things that are yet to come. How does Jesus say “he that shall overcome (future tense) shall inherit all things” if this passage is about the end of the world, and the issue of inheriting eternal life or being disinherited is completely settled? If you think this is the end of the world, then there is no “shall inherit” because those who are in heaven with Christ have already inherited and those who you assume are in hell forever cannot inherit. The way Infernalists read Revelation 20, everything is finished, and you are either redeemed with Christ or damned in the eternal lake of fire, with no opportunity to overcome. Instead, here is an invitation open to all: overcome your passions, overcome the sin that binds you, and you shall inherit that which has been prepared for all my children from the beginning of all things.

Verse 8 Infernalists teach that this verse is speaking about casting sinners into an everlasting fire of hell. It is not. It is a warning to those who shall remain stubbornly attached to sin. They shall not only experience the first death, that of their physical bodies, but also the second death of being cast into the smelting furnace, described here as the lake of fire. Again, remember that we are speaking of symbolic language here. It is not a literal fire as described by the warped imaginations of some Western theologians. There is only one fire in the next life and in the ages of ages to come–the passionate fire of God’s love, of which early fathers such as St. Isaac the Syrian spoke. Our God is a consuming fire, and what is consumed is all that is His enemy–death, the grave, and all evil. We are not His enemies. We are all of us His children. Some have been, and many are to this day, extremely sick with evil, but that does not make them not His children. It makes them sick and in need of bitter medicine to become well. We can either take it now, or take it later, which will be much, much more unpleasant. The choice is yours!

Reading the rest of chapter 21 verifies this. From verse ten on we see a description of the church as the bride of Christ. We are given a description of how it appears as a celestial reality. And notice that the gates of it are never shut. The Gospel invitation remains open to all, even after death. The only restriction is that in this beautiful celestial city, no one may enter who is defiled with sin. This is the whole purpose of the fire of God’s love. It is to cleanse the impurities and bring the soul to repentance. This is the splendor of God’s love.

I will need to answer one more objection which I already can hear from those Infernalists who are determined to make this book a book of God’s eternal condemnation of sinners. It is from the closing chapter of Revelation.

Revelation 22:10 “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

God insists to John that the wicked remain wicked and the just remain just. Infernalists will point to verse eleven as a proof text that there is no repentance after death. But in their zeal to damn souls, they cruise right by yet another crucial time indicator which shows a shift in the action. Here the action returns to earth away from visions of the heavenly city. Christ speaks to John in the here and now with instructions about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. The time is at hand, [1] coming quickly–not two thousand years down the road. At hand. Quickly. These are important adjectives which show that the time for all this was about to happen. The focus of Christ has shifted back to what is about to happen to Jerusalem.

And what is about to happen to those in Jerusalem whose future is destruction? Christ says let the wicked remain wicked. They are going to reap the reward of their evil and there will be no turning from it. This is the true meaning of election. Jesus spoke about the Pharisees as having been blinded by God so that they might not see what He was teaching and be saved. He goes on to say that this is not from some dreadful decision of God made before the foundation of the world, but because this is what they have chosen and now God honors that choice and does not give them ears to hear and eyes to see. It is not about some plan of God to damn people out of the mystery of his will, but about the choices we make.

This is a fearful pronouncement that all should take to heart. Just like Pharaoh, there comes a time when God says, after you have refused and refused and refused to listen, “Okay. Have it your way. Reap what you have sown.” After the Crucifixion, national Israel was symbolically given one more year as the fig tree to repent, turn to Christ, and bear fruit. Not only did they utterly fail, but they also filled up the measure of their fathers who killed the prophets by persecuting to death Christ’s people. Now the full reward for their evil would be given, starting with their deaths in Jerusalem and their falling into the chastening hands of God. There would be no turning back. God now declares their hearts shall be hardened just as Pharaoh’s heart was. Behold I come quickly, Christ says, and to give every man in this wretched nation what they have earned according to their deeds.

The only mercy of this terrible proclamation is that God’s justice is not eternal conscious torment. As discussed before, in lex talionis, you are scourged in proportion to what you have done. Once your measure is filled up, justice is served.

Matthew and Revelation, so often quoted as proof-texts for a future Great Tribulation and eternal damnation of souls, are about national Israel. The focus of Christ is on the coming destruction. His warnings on how to be saved are focused on this event. He warns both the nation and individuals of what will happen if they repent–and what will happen if they do not. He weeps over Jerusalem, His beloved city as He has come to realize their stubbornness has sealed the fate of this once magnificent city. Yet the last book of the Bible closes with the promise of something even greater. The New Jerusalem appears to all, her gates never to be shut, and the eternal invitation is this: “Come all you who thirst, and drink freely of the water of life.”

Revelation closes and completes this wonderful story–the redemption of all creation and the victory of God over evil. In Genesis the way back into the Garden, a symbol of God’s presence, is blocked. In Revelation, the Garden of His love is opened and shall never be shut. All may enter in. Some will in this life, finding the fullness of that entrance after death. Others, after dying, will have a long journey of repentance, filled with the cleansing fire of our Father’s corrective love. But the invitation is ever extended, the mercy of God never fails, the will of God to save all shall be accomplished. This is the Good News of the Gospel.

---

[1] In Greek, the word is tachý, takh-oo' and means quickly, speedily (without delay). 2,000 years of waiting for the coming of the Lord hardly meets the qualification of quickly or speedily.

This post is copy/pasted from this website.

The Intellectual Vacuity of Edward Feser – Part 1

Edward Feser is a Thomist philosopher and ardent (and by ardent I mean he really gets his knickers in a knot thinking of God saving all people!) damnationist. David Bentley Hart, the brilliant Orth…

http4281.com

 

[Der Alte]

I don't know why I even bother, as you think you are smarter than everyone in the whole world, including Greek scholars.

When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed

First-Century Jews did not mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. So what did Jesus say would pass away in Matthew 5:18?

www.reenactingtheway.com

That is incorrect because I quote Greek scholars. And OBTW a random blog online does not constitute credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.

 

[Light of the East]

This post is copy/pasted from this website.

The Intellectual Vacuity of Edward Feser – Part 1

Edward Feser is a Thomist philosopher and ardent (and by ardent I mean he really gets his knickers in a knot thinking of God saving all people!) damnationist. David Bentley Hart, the brilliant Orth…

http4281.com

Wrong again. It's from the book A LAYMAN INVESTIGATES UNIVERSAL SALVATION. It is not posted at that web site.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

No, that is why the Great Commission is important. The more seeds that are sown the more people that will be saved. Not everyone goes to the NHNE no matter how much you try and twist the text.

Doesn't this mean that people convert because of fear of hell instead of love of god???

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

No, zero, none scripture cited only your unsupported opinion. Please don't even think about quoting any "scholars" unless they are quoting scripture. I am not interested in the unsupported opinions of so-called scholars,

Interesting.

I never ever read cut/pastes of bible verses unless they follow up with an opinion of what the person thinks the scripture means. You want the cut/paste without an explanation or opinion???

 

[Light of the East]

That is incorrect because I quote Greek scholars. And OBTW a random blog online does not constitute credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or free-spirited. Now, if anyone hears that word, they think of homosexual orientation. The word "gay" is simply not used in conversation as it was 100 years ago and is completely understood differently.

It's possible that your "Greek scholars" are late comers who were trained to believe that the word "aionios" means "eternal" when the historic evidence for it points otherwise.

What do I mean by historic evidence? I mean that the teaching of Apokatastasis was primarily found in the Greek-speaking East, whereas the Latin West developed the idea of God creating an eternal torment chamber for sinners. Now if you have any sort of investigative mind, you have to ask yourself how it was possible that those Greek-speaking fathers of the Church could believe in something that violates Scripture if "aionios" really means "eternal." There is other evidence from how Plato and other Greek-speaking ancients used the word. So unless you are willing to ascribe utter dishonesty to men like St. Isaac of Syria, as well as the many others who spoke the language and understood it as their native tongue, then you must believe that your "scholars" were trained wrong because they didn't go deep enough into history nor examine all the evidence.

And as for the refutation of the blog spot, what evidence would you accept? I don't think you will accept any evidence that contradicts your cherished ideal that God is just waiting to get His hands on sinners and torment them. You, and many other hellists, strike me as having the same feeling as Tertullian and Aquinas had, which is that they looked forward to leaning over the parapets of heaven to watch sinners get what is due them and enjoy the spectacle.

Anyone with half a heart should find the idea of eternal punishment to be both dreadful and sad, not to mention a smear on the very character of the God who enfleshed Himself to suffer a horrendous death that we might be freed from death.

 

[Light of the East]

Doesn't this mean that people convert because of fear of hell instead of love of god???

That's how many priests and preachers approach conversion. Think Jonathan Edwards.

 

[Der Alte]

Wrong again. It's from the book A LAYMAN INVESTIGATES UNIVERSAL SALVATION. It is not posted at that web site.

I found the website by doing a google search on this sentence from your post "Verse 1 In Jewish Apocalyptic Language, 'heaven and earth' are a reference to the Old Covenant kingdom passing away." And not only this paragraph word for word but other paragraphs from your post are at the website. And you did not cite your source making it appear that this was your work..

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

That is because you, and millions of other Christians around the world, while well-meaning, are deceived and do not understand ..

Not sure you'd get in trouble with god for not knowing something.
If you dont know you dont know. it's not a moral choice to not be aware of something.
of course you're not saying they are to blame.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

That's how many priests and preachers approach conversion. Think Jonathan Edwards.

That will lead to a pretty lacklustre faith in god though.
you love god because you're afraid ???