Just Truth

[th1bill]

In Romans 3:10 and 3:23 we learn there are none that are righteous, not you and not even the man teaching/preaching from the pulpit. That includes people that go to the building they mistakenly call The Church.
Colossians 3:23-24 NASB1995
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

Bill Taylor
Killer Spade 806 CE

 

[oikonomia]

In Romans 3:10 and 3:23 we learn there are none that are righteous, not you and not even the man teaching/preaching from the pulpit. That includes people that go to the building they mistakenly call The Church.
Colossians 3:23-24 NASB1995
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

Bill Taylor
Killer Spade 806 CE

"Just Truth" is an interesting title to this thread you started.

Yes, all need justification because there is none righteous.

But the proper church life must produce righteous men and women, boys and girls as it provides
a place where Christ, the Righteous One, can be planted and grow in people.

It is this growth of Christ, the living and avaliable Perfect man in resurrection, imparted into people to grow in them
which produces righteous living human beings.

Here Paul calls the church in Corinth the farm [or cultivated land] of God for growing dvine life in man.
And here he calls the church a building of God, strongly implying that for God to grow in man is to build the temple of God.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s cultivated land, God’s building. (1 Cor. 3:9)

 

[ViaCrucis]

In Romans 3:10 and 3:23 we learn there are none that are righteous, not you and not even the man teaching/preaching from the pulpit. That includes people that go to the building they mistakenly call The Church.
Colossians 3:23-24 NASB1995
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

Bill Taylor
Killer Spade 806 CE

I don't mistakenly call the building we gather at a church.

Technically the building was called a "church" before the people were. You see, in English we use "church" to translate the Greek word ekklesia, meaning something like "called out assembly". But the English word "church" actually has its roots in another Greek expression, kyriakon doma, which translates to "[the] Lord's house", a term used to describe Christian meeting places going back to the early centuries of Christianity.

This expression was shortened as kyriakon and entered into several language families, in proto-Germanic from which modern Germanic languages such as English descend, as kirika, from which modern German kirche, Danish kirke, and English church--from Anglo-Saxon circe, to Middle English chirche, to Modern English church. This also happened in the Slavic languages, such as Old Church Slavonic црькъви (tsr'k'vi, though my transliteration might be off), modern Bulgarian църква (tsurkva), Russian церковь (tserkov'), or Macedonian црква (tsrkva).

However, since these houses of worship is where the Faithful assembled, where they ekklesia'd, in the Romance languages (through the Latin borrowing of the Greek as ecclesia), such as Italian chiesa. So when going to assemble you "go to church", you go to assemble for worship, you gather together for that distinctive act of Christian gathering--the Mass, the Liturgy, the Service, etc--and so the place wherein you gather, where you and your fellow Christians ekklesia together--is the assembly, the ekklesia too.

And so in English, and other Germanic languages, we took the word already used to describe the house of worship itself to refer to what we are doing, and who we are in our togetherness-in-Christ--"church".

So there is the Church, the entire assembly of Christian Faithful in its catholic or universal sense; both here on earth and in heaven.
And we go to "do" church by meeting together for the Divine Service/Liturgy/Mass where we hear the Scriptures read, hear the preaching of the word, offer songs of praise, and prayer together, and celebrate the Lord's Supper.
We do this as our local assembly or congregation, aka "church" together.
And we do this in a church, a place of assembling and congregation.

If you want to get right down to it, the Church churches as churches in churches.

I just wanted to get that out of the way. Because while its popular to say "the building isn't the church" as a kind of pious aphorism, it isn't correct.

It is perfectly acceptable to speak of going to church, to do something at the church, that we are the Church, our church, your church, etc. It's all fine. All the ways we historically use this word are etymologically and linguistically sound, and it is perfectly acceptable.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FireDragon76]

Ecclessia still survives in some Romance languages, like Spanish's iglesia. The Italian chiesa is also distantly a descendant of this word. In Spanish, iglesia refers both to the building and the institution.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't mistakenly call the building we gather at a church.

Technically the building was called a "church" before the people were. You see, in English we use "church" to translate the Greek word ekklesia, meaning something like "called out assembly". But the English word "church" actually has its roots in another Greek expression, kyriakon doma, which translates to "[the] Lord's house", a term used to describe Christian meeting places going back to the early centuries of Christianity.

This expression was shortened as kyriakon and entered into several language families, in proto-Germanic from which modern Germanic languages such as English descend, as kirika, from which modern German kirche, Danish kirke, and English church--from Anglo-Saxon circe, to Middle English chirche, to Modern English church. This also happened in the Slavic languages, such as Old Church Slavonic црькъви (tsr'k'vi, though my transliteration might be off), modern Bulgarian църква (tsurkva), Russian церковь (tserkov'), or Macedonian црква (tsrkva).

However, since these houses of worship is where the Faithful assembled, where they ekklesia'd, in the Romance languages (through the Latin borrowing of the Greek as ecclesia), such as Italian chiesa. So when going to assemble you "go to church", you go to assemble for worship, you gather together for that distinctive act of Christian gathering--the Mass, the Liturgy, the Service, etc--and so the place wherein you gather, where you and your fellow Christians ekklesia together--is the assembly, the ekklesia too.

And so in English, and other Germanic languages, we took the word already used to describe the house of worship itself to refer to what we are doing, and who we are in our togetherness-in-Christ--"church".

So there is the Church, the entire assembly of Christian Faithful in its catholic or universal sense; both here on earth and in heaven.
And we go to "do" church by meeting together for the Divine Service/Liturgy/Mass where we hear the Scriptures read, hear the preaching of the word, offer songs of praise, and prayer together, and celebrate the Lord's Supper.
We do this as our local assembly or congregation, aka "church" together.
And we do this in a church, a place of assembling and congregation.

If you want to get right down to it, the Church churches as churches in churches.

I just wanted to get that out of the way. Because while its popular to say "the building isn't the church" as a kind of pious aphorism, it isn't correct.

It is perfectly acceptable to speak of going to church, to do something at the church, that we are the Church, our church, your church, etc. It's all fine. All the ways we historically use this word are etymologically and linguistically sound, and it is perfectly acceptable.

-CryptoLutheran

No the word church goes even further back to “ gathering in a circle”

And we know that when Jesus used the Greek word for church he was building “his” church” called out assembly not the Greek gatherings. We see similar to the word temple which has a pagan root but when speaking spiritually believers are the temple of God.

And even if we use their word earlier for church as the house of a Lord, it is used spiritually of the house if God made up of living stones.

All references to the body of Christ the church refer not to a man made building. But a spiritual house and the body of Christ made of many parts assembled together.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No the word church goes even further back to “ gathering in a circle”

Nope. It goes back to the Greek phrase kyriakon oikos, "Lord's house", shortened to kyriakos, and then entered into the Germanic languages, hence church, kirk, kirche, etc. All descended from kyriakon.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[th1bill]

Nope. It goes back to the Greek phrase kyriakon oikos, "Lord's house", shortened to kyriakos, and then entered into the Germanic languages, hence church, kirk, kirche, etc. All descended from kyriakon.

-CryptoLutheran

Nope, your source must not include biblical history.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nope, your source must not include biblical history.

This statement is nonsensical.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[th1bill]

This statement is nonsensical.

-CryptoLutheran

Actually I agree, your statement is nonsence.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Nope. It goes back to the Greek phrase kyriakon oikos, "Lord's house", shortened to kyriakos, and then entered into the Germanic languages, hence church, kirk, kirche, etc. All descended from kyriakon.

-CryptoLutheran

All we need is the biblical use of the word "ecclesia", meaning "a called out assembly gathered". It never has to do with a man made building the way it is used for the church or body of Christ in scripture. Trying to find an old meaning of the word church , does not answer the meaning as Jesus used it. But the word "church" is a good word to use. Even if we say it meant "to gather in a circle" or "a house of a lord" or "circus" etc.

But here is some other ancient history

"The word “church” has a complicated history. It is probably derived from Old English “cirice,” which in turn came from the German “kirika,” which likely came from the Greek “kuriake,” which means “of the Lord.” Some scholars dispute this, saying that our English word derives from the Anglo-Saxon “kirke,” which in turn comes from the Latin “circus” (meaning “circle” or “ring”) because early congregants gathered in a circle.

Somehow, the idea that the words “church” and “circus” are related seems fitting. Sometimes, the church is like a circus. However, the oldest word for church is completely unrelated to any of these derivations.

"The oldest word for church, the word that St. Paul himself used, is the Greek word “ecclesia,” from which we get the terms “ecclesial” and “ecclesiastical.” The word was in use centuries before the Christian church appeared on the scene. It referred to a socio-political gathering of citizens, who were called together to attend to the concerns of their city." (Shayne Looper is the pastor of Lockwood Community Church in Coldwater, Michigan. His blog, “The Way Home,)

 

[FireDragon76]

All we need is the biblical use of the word "ecclesia", meaning "a called out assembly gathered". It never has to do with a man made building the way it is used for the church or body of Christ in scripture. Trying to find an old meaning of the word church , does not answer the meaning as Jesus used it. But the word "church" is a good word to use. Even if we say it meant "to gather in a circle" or "a house of a lord" or "circus" etc.

The etymology of a word doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what it denotes. At the time of the King James Bible, church was commonly understood to refer to both the building, the congregation inside, and the institution it represented.

But here is some other ancient history

"The word “church” has a complicated history. It is probably derived from Old English “cirice,” which in turn came from the German “kirika,” which likely came from the Greek “kuriake,” which means “of the Lord.” Some scholars dispute this, saying that our English word derives from the Anglo-Saxon “kirke,” which in turn comes from the Latin “circus” (meaning “circle” or “ring”) because early congregants gathered in a circle.

Early Christians worshiped facing the same direction, not in a circle.

The etymology of the word "church" is well attested and isn't really up for debate by serious scholars. The Greek word kyriakos is even used as a name in modern Greek, and it has a similar meaning "of the Lord".

 

[LoveofTruth]

The etymology of a word doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what it denotes. At the time of the King James Bible, church was commonly understood to refer to both the building, the congregation inside, and the institution it represented.




Early Christians worshiped facing the same direction, not in a circle.

The etymology of the word "church" is well attested and isn't really up for debate by serious scholars. The Greek word kyriakos is even used as a name in modern Greek, and it has a similar meaning "of the Lord".

The early church did not sit facing behind the back of another’s head facing foreword they met in homes facing one another. Scripture shows clearly that the church met in the homes.

This being the case, the word church definitely dies not mean not ever had meant temples built with human hands. Even the word temple used by Jesus has pagan roots. But Jesus often used words in a spiritual meaning. The word church in its origins is a good word to describe many people as living stones of Gods spiritual house gathered together .even in the various meanings of the word.

But here is sone proof that the word church as refering to the body of christ, the house of God, Never means a man made;

Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5)

“...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Corinthians 16:19)

“Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Colossians 4:15)

“And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house” (Philemon 1:2)

And we read,


Acts 7: 48.-51 “Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50. Hath not my hand made all these things? 51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

 

[Larniavc]

In Romans 3:10 and 3:23 we learn there are none that are righteous, not you and not even the man teaching/preaching from the pulpit.

I dunno man; if we look in my profile we learn that I’m living a blameless life.

How are we to appraise the veracity of the two claims?

 

[David Lamb]

I dunno man; if we look in my profile we learn that I’m living a blameless life.

How are we to appraise the veracity of the two claims?

By looking at what the bible and what it teaches. There we find that we deceive ourselves if we say that we have no sin:

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jo 1:8 NKJV)

Granted, there are places where men are described, or describe themselves, as "blameless", but the word thus translated can mean "complete". I'm sure David would never claim to be sinless.

 

[oikonomia]

A denomination is not a church. It is a division in the church.

Or we might say a denomination is a deformed local church. It is an confessed division. It is an acknowledged division.
It practices as principle of excluding some whom the Lord has received. (Rom. 15:7)

These are days when many Christians do not believe it is possible to be in a church which is not a division.
"When we all get to Heaven then we will be one" they may hope.

This is not right. This assumes that when Christ said the gates of Hades would
not prevail against the church that He would build, He meant that there are no gates
of Hades in Heaven. So in Heaven not on earth He would build His church.

One objection to the church having genuine unity on earth is based upon a assumption
that the local church must be a utopia. No, a normal church in the oneness of the Spirit is not a utopia.
It is a congregation where eventually the Holy Spirit has the last word.
And most often that last word is that someone has to take the cross and deny themselves by enjoying Christ instead.

To end this short post the church in Corinth has a letter introducing us to a typical proper church.
Everyone knows that Corinth was not a utopian church. And oneness is not the non-existence of challenges.
It is though saints in a locality learning and willing to take the cross to their preferences and make Christ
preeminent in all things - holding the Head in life while He grows in us and builds us up as His living temple.

Churches in the New Testament we disignated according to cities.
They only division Christ would permit is one of geography. This is possible today as it was in the first century.
But it is not possible without brothers and sisters in a locality willing to hold to the Head, take the cross to their preferences,
and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy the living Jesus as the first place in all things.

There, that should be enough to get me into some hot water. But it is true. Some are inheriting the promises of a prevailing local church.

That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises. (Heb. 6:12RcV)

 

[ViaCrucis]

All we need is the biblical use of the word "ecclesia", meaning "a called out assembly gathered". It never has to do with a man made building the way it is used for the church or body of Christ in scripture. Trying to find an old meaning of the word church , does not answer the meaning as Jesus used it. But the word "church" is a good word to use. Even if we say it meant "to gather in a circle" or "a house of a lord" or "circus" etc.

But here is some other ancient history

"The word “church” has a complicated history. It is probably derived from Old English “cirice,” which in turn came from the German “kirika,” which likely came from the Greek “kuriake,” which means “of the Lord.” Some scholars dispute this, saying that our English word derives from the Anglo-Saxon “kirke,” which in turn comes from the Latin “circus” (meaning “circle” or “ring”) because early congregants gathered in a circle.

Somehow, the idea that the words “church” and “circus” are related seems fitting. Sometimes, the church is like a circus. However, the oldest word for church is completely unrelated to any of these derivations.

"The oldest word for church, the word that St. Paul himself used, is the Greek word “ecclesia,” from which we get the terms “ecclesial” and “ecclesiastical.” The word was in use centuries before the Christian church appeared on the scene. It referred to a socio-political gathering of citizens, who were called together to attend to the concerns of their city." (Shayne Looper is the pastor of Lockwood Community Church in Coldwater, Michigan. His blog, “The Way Home,)

Given the common cognates among the Germanic languages, the etymology seems clear, it derives from Kyriakon.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rockytopva]

Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. - Job 13:38

 

[ViaCrucis]

Actually I agree, your statement is nonsence.

We aren't talking about biblical history. We are talking about the etymology of the word "church".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Larniavc]

By looking at what the bible and what it teaches. There we find that we deceive ourselves if we say that we have no sin:

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jo 1:8 NKJV)

Granted, there are places where men are described, or describe themselves, as "blameless", but the word thus translated can mean "complete". I'm sure David would never claim to be sinless.

My point was that anyone can make claims.

 

[th1bill]

I dunno man; if we look in my profile we learn that I’m living a blameless life.

How are we to appraise the veracity of the two claims?

Your words are not of Yahovah.