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Guojing

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Similarly, Jesus required Water Baptism early on of his immediate Disciples. There is no extensive theology on the subject for purposes of formalizing it in history. Whether it needed to be done for those raised up in Christ is not an issue even raised. How it is to be administered, immersed or dipped, is not even delved into.

It is an initiation ceremony for people who had been living as pagans. It formalized their conversion in front of a witness or in public. It is less important than what it represents--conversion to Christ.

Actually, if you understand the Law of Moses, water baptism is required for Levi priests Leviticus 8:5-6, 12, 23,

So if every Jew is going to be a kingdom of priests, in the coming Kingdom after Jesus arrival in the flesh (1 Peter 2:9-10), it follows that every Jew must be water baptized (Luke 7:29-30).

That was why "Jesus required Water Baptism early on of his immediate Disciples", they were all preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

That is the extensive theology on the subject
 
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RandyPNW

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Actually, if you understand the Law of Moses, water baptism is required for Levi priests Leviticus 8:5-6, 12, 23,
Not the same as John's Baptism. John was acting as a special emissary for the coming of Christ. He was "preparing the way for the Lord," calling Israel to repentance in anticipation of Christ's coming Salvation.
So if every Jew is going to be a kingdom of priests, in the coming Kingdom after Jesus arrival in the flesh (1 Peter 2:9-10), it follows that every Jew must be water baptized (Luke 7:29-30).
No, this is not a law either in the Law of Moses or in the NT canon.
That was why "Jesus required Water Baptism early on of his immediate Disciples", they were all preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

That is the extensive theology on the subject
No, this is entirely made up. You can read anything into the Bible if you wish to do so. But let the Bible speak for itself and there is no such theology--not even a little.

Jesus had his disciples baptizing for repentance just like John, for purposes of repentance in anticipation of his coming Salvation. Baptism was for those who repented, and not for those simply watching. It was telling those watching that these people had become repentant and wanted to return to living by the Law in a proper way.

So at this time this was not NT Baptism--it was more John's Baptism of repentance under the Law. It became Christian Baptism following Christ's atonement for our sins.
 
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jas3

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I gave a straight answer to your question, Jan... unless you wrote something that's different to what's on your mind.
Would you like to change the question, because I understand it to be asking if i am claiming that the Church in the "NT" only refers to the apostles.
The article says "the period from the death of Jesus until the death of the last of the Twelve Apostles is called the Apostolic Age, after the missionary activities of the apostles".
That quote from the article defines the Apostolic Age, not the composition of the Church.
Thus, rather than it being a claim, it is a fact that the Apostolic Age ended with the death of John
This still doesn't answer the question.
and the Church in the "NT" was made up of the 12 apostles; as well as all the disciples newly converted during that period, along with those among the 120.
And there, finally, is an answer, but note that your source said nothing about those people being part of the Church - that's information you had to supply. And it still doesn't explain why you took issue with the phrase "early Church," which I assume is because you don't consider anything after the Apostolic Age to be early.
However, if someone is trying to get me to say that a religious group or organization is either false or true, I do not give them either.
So you admit you're not giving a straight answer to that question.
If a person believes something is true, the onus is on them to show that it is true. Not demand that I either admit it is true, or deny it.
The statement of faith of this forum requires assent to the Nicene Creed. You apparently take issue with part of the creed as it applies to the Church of the fourth century (and really most centuries from the 1st to the 21st). The onus is not on me to get you to agree with the creed any more than it is for me to prove God's existence to you - in the general public sphere that might be the case, but not on this forum.
Please provide a primary source that records infant baptism as having apostolic origin.
I didn't say that every doctrine has a primary source explicitly claiming it to be of apostolic origin, I said that if, for example, someone recorded that something was of apostolic origin (the particular example I had in mind was St. Clement of Rome recording the apostolic succession of bishops) then you could just dismiss that as a claim that carries no more weight than your personal interpretation of Scripture.
 
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Guojing

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Not the same as John's Baptism. John was acting as a special emissary for the coming of Christ. He was "preparing the way for the Lord," calling Israel to repentance in anticipation of Christ's coming Salvation.

No, this is not a law either in the Law of Moses or in the NT canon.

No, this is entirely made up. You can read anything into the Bible if you wish to do so. But let the Bible speak for itself and there is no such theology--not even a little.

Jesus had his disciples baptizing for repentance just like John, for purposes of repentance in anticipation of his coming Salvation. Baptism was for those who repented, and not for those simply watching. It was telling those watching that these people had become repentant and wanted to return to living by the Law in a proper way.

So at this time this was not NT Baptism--it was more John's Baptism of repentance under the Law. It became Christian Baptism following Christ's atonement for our sins.

Are you not aware that Jesus and the 12, along with John the Baptist, were preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel at his first coming?

I can give you plenty of scripture references for that, if you need.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Thank you for fobbing me off yet again.
Sorry....that was wrong of me. You are a smart enough person to know what the Means of Grace are. You might want to do some research and then post your conclusion. I would be most interested in that. I haven't seen an OP from you in nearly two years.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Actually, if you understand the Law of Moses, water baptism is required for Levi priests Leviticus 8:5-6, 12, 23,
Baptism is unknown during the time the Law of Moses was given. The interpretation here should be washings. Plus the fact that the priests washed themselves clearly is not NT Christian baptism. In NT baptism, the recipient is passive.

Of all the washings in the OT, the washing of Naanam washing comes closest to Christian baptism. Why? Because attached to the washing was a promise. (II Kings 5:10) However, Naanam washed himself....which is apart of the OT understanding.

In NT clearly speaks of Jewish baptisms (Mark 7:4 and Luke 11:38) but they still fall under the OT concept of washing....Mark and Luke of hand washing. No promises attached to these baptisms.

John's baptism is closest to the NT concept of baptism. In John's baptism the recipient is passive and John is active. Additionally, we see a promise attached to John's baptism as we do clearly in NT Christian baptism. Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

NT baptism is full of promises of which the first promises of NT baptism builds on John's promise...."for the forgiveness of sins." Acts 2:38.
 
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Guojing

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Baptism is unknown during the time the Law of Moses was given. The interpretation here should be washings. Plus the fact that the priests washed themselves clearly is not NT Christian baptism. In NT baptism, the recipient is passive.

Of all the washings in the OT, the washing of Naanam washing comes closest to Christian baptism. Why? Because attached to the washing was a promise. (II Kings 5:10) However, Naanam washed himself....which is apart of the OT understanding.

In NT clearly speaks of Jewish baptisms (Mark 7:4 and Luke 11:38) but they still fall under the OT concept of washing....Mark and Luke of hand washing. No promises attached to these baptisms.

John's baptism is closest to the NT concept of baptism. In John's baptism the recipient is passive and John is active. Additionally, we see a promise attached to John's baptism as we do clearly in NT Christian baptism. Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

NT baptism is full of promises of which the first promises of NT baptism builds on John's promise...."for the forgiveness of sins." Acts 2:38.

Call it washing, call it water baptism, my point is for a jew to be a priest under the law of moses, he must undergo it.

Are you disagreeing with this point of mine?
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Call it washing, call it water baptism, my point is for a jew to be a priest under the law of moses, he must undergo it.

Are you disagreeing with this point of mine?
Ceremonial washing are apart of the warf and woof of the OT. They have no connection to NT baptism outside of water applied to the human body. Certainly, no promises attached to them as the NT has.
 
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RandyPNW

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Are you not aware that Jesus and the 12, along with John the Baptist, were preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel at his first coming?

I can give you plenty of scripture references for that, if you need.
Of course I am. Are you aware that Jesus continued to proclaim observance of the Law until his death? The Gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed that the Kingdom was coming to judge men who at that time were still under the Law. Why is this fact relevant in our discussion?
 
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jas3

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Yes, I think I see where you're going with this. You think, if I may, that the mechanical action of Water Baptism is the active ingredient that spiritually cleanses?
I would not say that any individual part of baptism is the "active ingredient," only that baptism as a whole spiritually cleanses.
By contrast, I see the mechanical action of "getting baptized" as meaningless with respect to getting spiritually cleansed. I see it simply as a religious ritual used as an initiation ceremony into Christianity.
But you would not say, for example, that someone could claim to be a believer and refuse baptism in spite of it being commanded by our Lord, would you?
The "waters" of the Flood were symbolic of the "waters" of Christian Baptism. But unlike the true properties of water, used to either drown or cleanse of impurity, the water itself, whether of the Flood or of John's Baptism, were purely symbolic of the cleansing action of faith, which purified of sin by spiritual means.

I understand you don't see it this way, but I do. The "water" symbolized Jesus' Baptism which had a completely different agent for cleansing. In fact, Spirit Baptism, though associated with Christian Water Baptism, did not even seem to require water baptism at all! This is more argument for "water" in the Flood and in John's Baptism being symbolic of something greater in the Baptism of the Spirit.
The water in the Flood and in John's baptism certainly can be said to be symbolic in some ways, but I don't see how that relates to whether the baptism of Jesus is efficacious or not.
Handkerchiefs and aprons didn't actually heal. The grace they appeared to dispense were actually produced by God's word apart from these agencies which cannot, as you suggest, heal at all!
The healings were miraculous; of course handkerchiefs and aprons, in and of themselves, can't heal people. But God worked through those physical means to perform miracles - the preceding verse says that God was performing miracles by the hand of Paul, i.e. "Paul was performing miracles," as we would say, but ultimately it was God performing the miracle, and nobody who says "Paul performed a miracle" actually thinks Paul has any power to do so apart from God. In the same way, "the handkerchiefs and aprons were carried to the sick, and they were healed" doesn't detract from God ultimately being the giver of grace.
Water and the Spirit were indeed both present in John's Baptism, as well as in Jesus' Baptism. The water, in all cases, were inadequate for what they hoped to represent in Christian Baptism spiritually.

What distinguishes Jesus' Baptism is the spiritual component, symbolized by the water, which relies on the atonement of Christ. In this way Jesus' Baptism was able to surpass the limitations of water to forgive the transgressions of the Law.

Water could not do this--not even as a ritual. As a mechanical instrument it was a temporary stand in for the eternal reality it was intended to substitute for. Ritual Baptism was temporary mitigation for Sin under the Law. In the NT era, sacramental Baptism represents the final resolution of the Sin problem.
Here you've gone from water being symbolic of the spiritual part of the baptism to baptism itself being symbolic, with no apparent connection. Even if we say the water is symbolic in this way, that doesn't imply that it is exclusively symbolic, nor does it imply that the baptism as a whole is not efficacious.
 
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Guojing

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Of course I am. Are you aware that Jesus continued to proclaim observance of the Law until his death? The Gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed that the Kingdom was coming to judge men who at that time were still under the Law. Why is this fact relevant in our discussion?

You stated "Jesus required Water Baptism early on of his immediate Disciples", I was explaining why was it required for the nation of Israel to undergo it.

Without it, they cannot be priests in the millennial kingdom, which the entire nation was suppose to become, to bring all the other nations into the kingdom (Exodus 19:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Zechariah 8:23, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10).

Once you get that, you will understand why Paul never told us gentiles the same requirement to be water baptized.
 
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Guojing

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Ceremonial washing are apart of the warf and woof of the OT. They have no connection to NT baptism outside of water applied to the human body. Certainly, no promises attached to them as the NT has.

My point earlier was

If Jews are to be priests
then they have to be washed/water baptized.

Are you saying that Jews can be priests even without being washed, or some other objection to my "if-then" above?
 
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RandyPNW

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You stated "Jesus required Water Baptism early on of his immediate Disciples", I was explaining why was it required for the nation of Israel to undergo it.
Really? Where are we told that the whole nation of Israel was *required* to undergo John's Baptism or Water Baptism? My thought was that those who felt convicted that they had been failing under the Law should get Water Baptized to show their repentance. This would certainly not include those in Israel who were living upright lives under the Law. Neither would it likely include those who resisted repentance completely or wished to do so by appearances only. John discouraged feigned repentance in Baptism.

So John's Baptism, and Baptism via Jesus' Disciples, were designed to prepare those in Israel who wanted to be ready for the coming of Messiah who would be Judge over Israel. All were certainly called to restore their families, if the parents and the children were at odds with one another. But it is unlikely that all Israel was called to Water Baptism specifically.

At best there was a general call to Water Baptism with the understanding that most needed to repent. But this is not the same thing as a legal requirement.
 
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Guojing

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Really? Where are we told that the whole nation of Israel was *required* to undergo John's Baptism or Water Baptism?

Did you read my second paragraph, the scripture references?
Without it, they cannot be priests in the millennial kingdom, which the entire nation was suppose to become, to bring all the other nations into the kingdom (Exodus 19:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Zechariah 8:23, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10).

We gentiles are certainly not told, but for the nation of Israel, they are aware of Daniel 70 weeks prophecy and when in that timetable, their coming Messiah will be "cut off" Daniel 9:26.

As gentiles, we can sense that urgency in Peter's message in his first sermon to the nation of Israel (Acts 2:14, Acts 2:16-21, Acts 2:40) at Pentecost, before cumulating with the famous Acts 2:38 scripture instruction, to repent and be baptized.
 
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RandyPNW

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I would not say that any individual part of baptism is the "active ingredient," only that baptism as a whole spiritually cleanses.
How does anything cleanse if it doesn't have an "active ingredient" that can cleanse? So you are talking about Water Baptism meeting a *legal requirement* for cleansing to take place? If so, what do you base this legal requirement on--a general call to repentance in an apostate Israel?
But you would not say, for example, that someone could claim to be a believer and refuse baptism in spite of it being commanded by our Lord, would you?
It depends on whether it was a real command and what the requirement actually entails. I'm not aware that Water Baptism is specifically required of everyone as a legal mandate? At best, there were specific situations where people were compelled to be baptized, just as in a fire those in a burning house are compelled to get out.

It is an urgent directive more than a legal mandate, however. Sometimes people ignore such a directive and pay the consequences. But this doesn't necessarily mean all is lost--what is lost may be only a particular opportunity to take the best course of action made available.
The water in the Flood and in John's baptism certainly can be said to be symbolic in some ways, but I don't see how that relates to whether the baptism of Jesus is efficacious or not.
We are told that the waters of the Flood were efficacious in removing sinners. And we believe that the water in Water Baptism is efficacious in bringing forgiveness from God, However, the water itself cannot cleanse from Sin. It is symbolic of something spiritual, something internal that can in fact cleanse from Sin.

Some assume, however, that just the legal act of obeying Baptism as a mandate has the effect of forgiving Sin. But my argument here is that there must be an actual agent of cleansing--something spiritual that is only represented symbolically by the water.

These were 2 different Baptisms, one under the Law and one after Redemption had been completed. Prior to redemption water was used for cleansing in a way that fell short of NT Baptism. NT Baptism permanently cleanses from Sin, and is by no means a temporary means of forgiveness. The water in NT Baptism no longer shows a need for redemption, but actually shows that redemption has already been achieved.

John's Baptism also dealt with a spiritual cleansing from Sin. But like water, the cleansing was transitory. And the Flood merely removed sinners--it did not remove the Sin from believers. So the waters of the Flood were symbolic of a different kind of cleansing that transcended the temporal efficacy of water in the OT era.

The water is symbolic of a different kind of cleansing that is efficacious in removing Sin and its guilt permanently. It is Baptism of a Spirit that permanently cleanses through Christ's redemption, as opposed to a Spirit that forgives temporarily under the Law, The Spirit of Christ is the agent that truly cleanses permanently from Sin, as opposed to the cleansing of Sin that takes place through the imagery of water.

The healings were miraculous; of course handkerchiefs and aprons, in and of themselves, can't heal people. But God worked through those physical means to perform miracles - the preceding verse says that God was performing miracles by the hand of Paul, i.e. "Paul was performing miracles," as we would say, but ultimately it was God performing the miracle, and nobody who says "Paul performed a miracle" actually thinks Paul has any power to do so apart from God. In the same way, "the handkerchiefs and aprons were carried to the sick, and they were healed" doesn't detract from God ultimately being the giver of grace.
No contest--that's true.
Here you've gone from water being symbolic of the spiritual part of the baptism to baptism itself being symbolic, with no apparent connection. Even if we say the water is symbolic in this way, that doesn't imply that it is exclusively symbolic, nor does it imply that the baptism as a whole is not efficacious.
Water Baptism in the OT was efficacious for forgiveness, though it was a temporary forgiveness. Water Baptism in the NT is efficacious in representing a permanent forgiveness that has already been achieved.

The waters of the Flood represented NT Baptism in the sense the water in NT Baptism represents an internal cleansing of Sin by Christ. The water is thus symbolic of an internal, spiritual cleansing that is final, or permanent.

Baptism itself is symbolic of the death of sinners. The waters of Baptism are symbolic of our internal, spiritual cleansing.
 
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CoreyD

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Right. Exactly. This is why it is so difficult to validate the Bible, particularly by people who are either overly skeptical of it OR are thinking primarily within the boundaries of 21st century science and philosophy.

Usually, I find that fellow Christians who think it relatively easy to validate the Bible do so because they've rarely or barely engaged anything in the way of Historical Criticism of the Bible.

Anyway, the whole point of this is that in line with Blaise Pascal, we should be charitable to those who would like to believe but admit to us that they have a difficult time doing so.
I'm not sure I am getting your point and objective. Could you try to simplify it for me, and explain what it is you would like to do.
 
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CoreyD

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That quote from the article defines the Apostolic Age, not the composition of the Church.

This still doesn't answer the question.
And there, finally, is an answer, but note that your source said nothing about those people being part of the Church - that's information you had to supply.
What people are you referring to?

And it still doesn't explain why you took issue with the phrase "early Church," which I assume is because you don't consider anything after the Apostolic Age to be early.
Early

adjective

  1. Of or occurring near the beginning of a given series, period of time, or course of events.
    "in the early morning; scored two runs in the early innings."
  2. Of or belonging to a previous or remote period of time.
    "the early inhabitants of the British Isles."
  3. Of or belonging to an initial stage of development.
    "an early form of life; an early computer."

The first century was early.
I'm early when I reach work before the time set to start work.
How are you defining early?

So you admit you're not giving a straight answer to that question.
The statement of faith of this forum requires assent to the Nicene Creed.
Correct.

You apparently take issue with part of the creed as it applies to the Church of the fourth century (and really most centuries from the 1st to the 21st). The onus is not on me to get you to agree with the creed any more than it is for me to prove God's existence to you - in the general public sphere that might be the case, but not on this forum.
No, I don't.
Perhaps you do not understand the Statement of Faith.
That clause has nothing to do with the church of the fourth century... nor any Catholic denomination.

I didn't say that every doctrine has a primary source explicitly claiming it to be of apostolic origin, I said that if, for example, someone recorded that something was of apostolic origin (the particular example I had in mind was St. Clement of Rome recording the apostolic succession of bishops) then you could just dismiss that as a claim that carries no more weight than your personal interpretation of Scripture.
I'd appreciate the source if you can provide one, thanks.
That way I can better understand what point you are getting at.
 
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CoreyD

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Yes, I think I see where you're going with this. You think, if I may, that the mechanical action of Water Baptism is the active ingredient that spiritually cleanses?

By contrast, I see the mechanical action of "getting baptized" as meaningless with respect to getting spiritually cleansed. I see it simply as a religious ritual used as an initiation ceremony into Christianity.

Its value is not cause and effect, to unlock spirituality, but purely a form of theater to express a confession. It's more like a skit than a legal action to obtain a permit to pass. I hate to put it as such, but the distinction is, I think, very important. One is a legal requirement to effect a change whereas the other is purely an external confession.

The "waters" of the Flood were symbolic of the "waters" of Christian Baptism. But unlike the true properties of water, used to either drown or cleanse of impurity, the water itself, whether of the Flood or of John's Baptism, were purely symbolic of the cleansing action of faith, which purified of sin by spiritual means.
You are actually correct about this. That is what Peter is saying.
The water does nothing physically. One being buried under water, and coming up, symbolizes publicly what has taken place within the person - a personal commitment made with God - a pledge, or dedication to God for an approved relationship with him (a clean conscience, and freedom of speech 1 John 3:21).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm not sure I am getting your point and objective. Could you try to simplify it for me, and explain what it is you would like to do.

I think I've already explained it. So, we're good.
 
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