Israel-Hamas Thread II

[ralliann]

They can do whatever they want. The Palestinians are still responsible for creating it. And so far they haven't shown any will to do so.

To support a state at this point is to support a terrorist state!

 

[Ted-01]

It is reasonably clear that Israel and the IDF have exercised a deal of control over the flow of aid. Aid into the Gaza Strip comes either through Israel or the Raffa Crossing which has been largely closed. A large percentage of the population of the Gaza Strip are refugees and Internally displaced persons. that means that the needs are high and the resources are small. This has opened the IDF to a charge of using the restriction of humanitarian aid as a weapon. As Palestine has no sovereignty, and offers of them having a state have always excluded sovereignty (the rights to secure borders and raise taxes) this means that the Raffa Crossing is a matter between Israel and Egypt.

This would be news to me! My understanding is that at the beginning of this conflict, Israel did pretty much close down all traffic in and out of Gaza. Later on, through much outside pressure, they allowed humanitarian aid to come into Gaza through Rafah and other limited points. When the "aid providers" got things together, they loaded up semi-trucks and presented convoys at Rafah for inspection. After that, elements of Hamas interfered with the aid in various ways... I understand that the WFP and UNRWA are supposed to be the ones handling distribution, but there are too many reports that say that is Hamas that basically controls it, all for me to ignore. There has also been too much intel that shows UN collaboration with Hamas, in several different areas, and from times long before this latest war and so that's the mindset that I'm looking at the current situation.
Let me ask you this, after the aid enters Israel, whose responsibility is it to insure equitable distribution? And do you think that they're doing a good job at it?
Also, if I got things wrong, could you point me to some resources that have more accurate information about this?

My concern for a free press is that is foundational, and I accept that we don't need to be told everything, when Government decide what we are to be told we are more likely to be deceived. Generally, totalitarian states are marked by significant restrictions on freedom of the press. One of the virtues of the 1st amendment to the US Constitution is that this is guaranteed. We don't have it guaranteed in Australia and at times we have had to fight for it, and in the end, it is the self-imprisonment of the press in a woke mindset that has provided the greatest risk to freedom of the press.

I guess that I understand most of this and agree with it. And sympathize with counties that are heavy handed with freedom of the press.
I don't understand what you meant with that last comment about "self-imprisonment and the woke agenda"... could you reword it?

Genesis 17:8
And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’
My point is that there were many offspring of Abraham who had children by three women, and the promised land as such is not the exclusive possession of only part of the family.

I had a laugh at this one... and am inclined to agree. I'm not fully onboard in regard to Dispensationalism.

 

[truthpls]

They werent oppressed. Israel left the area in 2006.

It never left running things like who can travel etc etc That is oppression.

Interesting video. Obviously shot and commented on from the side of the Palastinians.

I do understand their point if view. Of someone came in and took over my town and home I'd be very upset. I'm sure the native Americans were very upset. And I understand how they would consider it their home and their house and their town. I would.

How would the 700,000 plus people who left around 1948 NOT consider their lands and homes and groves their property?

But this isn't about understanding. It's about reality. And in reality it wasn't theirs. It was the Ottomans and then the British. And then the UN gave it to the Israelis.

The Balfour declaration suggested sharing the land I heard. Not giving it all to Jewish immigrants.

The thing is if the Native Americans were STILL attacking out of their nations and striking at civilians through whatever means, then I would expect the US government to do what is necessary to put a stop to it.

The people most attacked now are whites and Christians it seems.

It's time the Palestinians wake up and realize Israel is there to stay.

Or visa verso. As for the bible that says the next time God gives that land to believing Jews will be after He returns. Until then, you have zero right to steal anything.

Just like we are in the US. And the only way to survive and make things better is to recognize that and stop attacking Israel.

Then they should get along with and love their neighbours, rather than mistreat them and wonder why they attack.

If the Palestinians would have done that a long time ago then they wouldn't be in the mess they are in. These aren't freedom fighters they are terrorists. Terrorists who want not to be free, but to destroy Israel. Which has always been the goal of the Palestinians.

By the same token Israel in Gaza are not freedom fighters but mass murdering terrorists.

After Israel took the land given to them the Palestinians could have settled on the next 20 years on setting up thier own state. Instead they wanted to get rid of Israel.

Ask yourself why

Could Israel done things differently in 1948? Sure. I don't think they handled it well. But truth be told they needed the land for the incoming Jews.

Tough, everyone needs land.

If the Palestinians refused to give the land then there would have been no place for their nation.

Take the hint then. You have no right to steal it.

And I understand the fight to keep the land. I got it.

But they lost. Give it up already.

They seem to think Israel is losing. The world is waking up to what is going on there. Almost every nation on earth is against it.

They have their own land. Make something of it.

They have an outdoor prison barbed wire and restrictions. Now Israel has destroyed that as well and starved and deprived them. No wonder the world court is preparing to take action on their leaders.

The whole reason they are in the current situation they are in is because they absolutely refused to do so. They would rather spend their energy and efforts and money on attacking a nation that isn't going anywhere. It's folly. And they are reaping the whirlwind for it.

That is foolishness. They are an oppressed people fighting back. As for the terrorists among them, unless you can arrest them, leave the women and children in Gaza alone.

 

[ralliann]

It never left running things like who can travel etc etc That is oppression.

How would the 700,000 plus people who left around 1948 NOT consider their lands and homes and groves their property?

The Balfour declaration suggested sharing the land I heard. Not giving it all to Jewish immigrants.

The people most attacked now are whites and Christians it seems.

Or visa verso. As for the bible that says the next time God gives that land to believing Jews will be after He returns. Until then, you have zero right to steal anything.

Then they should get along with and love their neighbours, rather than mistreat them and wonder why they attack.

By the same token Israel in Gaza are not freedom fighters but mass murdering terrorists.

Ask yourself why

Tough, everyone needs land.

Take the hint then. You have no right to steal it.

They seem to think Israel is losing. The world is waking up to what is going on there. Almost every nation on earth is against it.

They have an outdoor prison barbed wire and restrictions. Now Israel has destroyed that as well and starved and deprived them. No wonder the world court is preparing to take action on their leaders.

That is foolishness. They are an oppressed people fighting back. As for the terrorists among them, unless you can arrest them, leave the women and children in Gaza alone.

You are defending Hamas

 

[wing2000]

To support a state at this point is to support a terrorist state!

That makes no sense.

Many countries, including the U.S., support a two state policy....and have for decades.

The challenge for the International community will be to create a state in which the security of both Israel and the Palestinian people is achieved.

 

[Malleeboy]

Problem is that at the last democratic election Hamas won the vote, and as best we can tell they are more popular now than then.
Hamas has the military, popular support and democratic mandate to be the government of Palestine. Now they have moderated their position in some manner, but they have not repudiated their original manifesto that called for the destruction of Israel.

So any Palestinian state would be a Hamas run state, any deals done by anyone else would be repudiated by Hamas, so any attempt to get the PA to do a deal to create a Palestinian state is moot.

Personally the only solution that would work would be to hand Gaza to Egypt, East Bank to Jordan and have them and the international community build a viable state for Palestinians for the next 50 years. However neither state will do so.

I cannot see the international community supporting a Palestinian state with either Hamas or Hamas like government. However any Palestinian party that moves to a position likely to be supported by the international community, will be undercut but a more radical faction that aligns better to the aspirations of the Palestinian population. Especially when regional players are willing for their own interests to use the Palestinians issues as a way of damaging Israel. They will fund and support opposition to any compromise state.

IMHO non Palestinians who assist in supporting the idea that anything other than a two state solution with both states fully secure and not in open hostility, are damaging Palestinians. I'm sure that many people who repeat "from the river to the sea" do so without realizing its fully context. However anyone who purposely maintains the idea of a single Palestinian state, and publicly espouses or supports that, is ensuring that Palestinians suffering will continue.

 

[ralliann]

That makes no sense.

At this point Palestine is a terrorist state

Many countries, including the U.S., support a two state policy....and have for decades.

At this point the US is not supporting Palestinian statehood

The challenge for the International community will be to create a state in which the security of both Israel and the Palestinian people is achieved.

Which at this point does not exist.

 

[truthpls]

You are defending Hamas

No I said arrest the terrorists. (but do not kill the women and children in a city to do so) Are you defending Israel's genocide/mass murder/terrorism??

 

[ralliann]

No I said arrest the terrorists.

Well you just go in there and try that. Israel will continue to take out the terrorists, and their supporters.

(but do not kill the women and children in a city to do so) Are you defending Israel's genocide/mass murder/terrorism??

Go ahead and try it. See how that works out for ya?

 

[rjs330]

My point is that there were many offspring of Abraham who had children by three women, and the promised land as such is not the exclusive possession of only part of the family.

Wrong, it was only for the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. It did not apply to his other women.

 

[rjs330]

The State of Palestine is recognized as a UN non-member observer state.

Then why the continued talk of two states? And what government dies Palestine have? What are it's borders? Where's its governing body, what are it's laws?
Just cause the UN says so, doesn't make it a state. It it did we would.stop.hearing about the need for the two states. It was a political move with no meaning. Palestine doesn't have anything associated with a true state.

 

[JosephZ]

Wrong, it was only for the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. It did not apply to his other women.

Then this would include Palestinian Christians. They have maintained a continuous presence in Palestine since the first century, and many of the Christians in the first century would have been Jews and Israelites who converted to Christianity and would be lineal descendants of Isaac. In addition to the Palestinian Christians, there would also be non-Christian and non-Jewish Palestinians who would also be able to trace their lineage to the Kingdom of Israel who would be decendants of Isaac.

 

[Philip_B]

Wrong, it was only for the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. It did not apply to his other women.

Genesis 17:8
And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’

The children of Shem and the descendents are the Semitic peoples.

The Promised Land - Canaan - relies on Genesis 17:1. Whilst I think many of us have been schooled to believe that the promise is simply to Isaac, and then the odd story that follows by which Esau's birthright came into the posession of Jacob, look at it with a cooler mind I don't see how you want to limit God's words att his stage. There is a strong tradition in the ancient people of offering shelter and hospitality to the stranger and the foreigner. The Book of Ruth and the account of Jonah, are a couple of points where we see the interest and concern of God as being broader and more catholic than a simply narrow tribal God.

 

[truthpls]

Well you just go in there and try that. Israel will continue to take out the terrorists, and their supporters.

That is demonizing a population by calling them 'supporters'. They are a terrorized population. Terrorized by Israel.

Go ahead and try it. See how that works out for ya?

If you can't go ahead and get the guilty ones, that is no excuse to mass murder people.

 

[ralliann]

That is demonizing a population by calling them 'supporters'. They are a terrorized population. Terrorized by Israel.

They support their terrorist leaders.

If you can't go ahead and get the guilty ones, that is no excuse to mass murder people.

Then, go rescue them from their leaders.

 

[essentialsaltes]

At this point the US is not supporting Palestinian statehood

I just showed you that the US supports a two state solution. wing2000 is correct that this has been the continuous policy of the US for decades.

 

[essentialsaltes]

And what government dies Palestine have?

The Palestinian Authority.

What are it's borders?

It claims the Israeli-Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza. But the Israeli Occupation prevents them from having any real jurisdiction over that area. This is why there is a need for a two-state solution, including the drawing of borders agreed to by both sides. The most practical solutions seem to involve "pre-1967 borders with land swaps".

Where's its governing body, what are it's laws?

The Wikipedia article is quite extensive.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israel’s latest offensives have deepened Gaza’s humanitarian crisis and reversed recent gains by aid groups in staving off starvation and disease.​

 

[truthpls]

They support their terrorist leaders.

So does Israel

Then, go rescue them from their leaders.

It is Israel they need rescuing from. I suspect God has the cavalry coming soon

 

[Philip_B]

Later on, through much outside pressure, they allowed humanitarian aid to come into Gaza through Rafah and other limited points.

Later on, through much outside pressure, they allowed limited humanitarian aid to come into Gaza through Rafah and other points.

There has also been too much intel that shows UN collaboration with Hamas, in several different areas, and from times long before this latest war and so that's the mindset that I'm looking at the current situation.

Given that for much of that period, Hamas represented the closest thing they had to a Government, that is hardly surprising, indeed it would be far more surprising if they did not.

Let me ask you this, after the aid enters Israel, whose responsibility is it to insure equitable distribution? And do you think that they're doing a good job at it?

UNRWA is the major player here, and there have been many questions raised about this, and I think many of the sponsors, put a hold on funding following claims made by Israel. I am not sure how they played out, however I suspect the US has not resumed funding, though I think Australia has.

The complexity in understanding the very solid support of the US for Israel, may in part rely on where you are in the election cycle. War is good for America economically, and support for Israel makes good financial sense for the Republican cause. When President Trump decided to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem, it was a move that incensed many and undid many of the agreements that have managed to reduce tension. It was a move that was predicated on US electoral response, and despite everything good he did in the Middle East (and for that, he should have had a Nobel Peace Prize) much of it and more was undone by this one act.

History to be useful must not only answer the questions of Who? What? When? and Where? - it must also answer the question Why? Experience tells us that is sometimes (though not always) found on the follow the money trail.