There is no Rapture

[Guojing]

Enoch and Elijah.

As in they were seen on Earth during AD 70?

 

[Guojing]

You can do the search and then show me why and how I am wrong.

If you claim that was what the Romans thought when they destroyed the temple in AD 70, it is your job to back that claim.

It is not the job of your readers to prove otherwise.

 

[Jan001]

If you claim that was what the Romans thought when they destroyed the temple in AD 70, it is your job to back that claim.

It is not the job of your readers to prove otherwise.

Thank you for sharing your opinion on what you think I should do.

 

[Diamond72]

As in they were seen on Earth during AD 70?

Do you have another theory of who the two witnesses are in Rev 11?

In Revelation 11:3-6, we encounter a description of two powerful witnesses who play a significant role during the end times. Although their names are not explicitly given, several theories exist regarding their identity:

Moses and Elijah:

• Some scholars believe the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah.
• These two figures are significant in biblical history:
  • Moses: The great lawgiver who led the Israelites out of Egypt and performed miracles.
  • Elijah: The prophet who confronted idolatry, called down fire from heaven, and was taken directly to heaven without experiencing death (2 Kings 2:11).
• Their appearance at the transfiguration alongside Jesus (Matthew 17:3–4) adds to this theory.

Enoch and Elijah:

• Another theory suggests that the two witnesses could be Enoch and Elijah:
  • Enoch: The man who walked with God and was taken directly to heaven without experiencing death (Genesis 5:23; Hebrews 11:5).
  • Elijah: As mentioned earlier, he was also taken directly to heaven (2 Kings 2:11).
• Both Enoch and Elijah were prophets who pronounced God’s judgment.

 

[Diamond72]

Show me any Roman history page

All I have to show you is the arch of Titus.

1. Victory Triumph Procession: One panel shows the start of Titus’ 71 CE victory triumph procession as it passes through the Porta Triumphalis to the Forum Boarium. Participants carry booty from the Temple of Jerusalem after the sacking of the city. The booty includes a seven-branched candelabra (menorah), silver trumpets, and perhaps even the Ark of the Covenant. Some figures carry placards indicating the names of conquered cities and peoples.

 

[Guojing]

All I have to show you is the arch of Titus.

1. Victory Triumph Procession: One panel shows the start of Titus’ 71 CE victory triumph procession as it passes through the Porta Triumphalis to the Forum Boarium. Participants carry booty from the Temple of Jerusalem after the sacking of the city. The booty includes a seven-branched candelabra (menorah), silver trumpets, and perhaps even the Ark of the Covenant. Some figures carry placards indicating the names of conquered cities and peoples.

View attachment 346084

Why do you quote selectively, instead of my entire sentence?

 

[Guojing]

Do you have another theory of who the two witnesses are in Rev 11?

In Revelation 11:3-6, we encounter a description of two powerful witnesses who play a significant role during the end times. Although their names are not explicitly given, several theories exist regarding their identity:

Moses and Elijah:

• Some scholars believe the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah.
• These two figures are significant in biblical history:
  • Moses: The great lawgiver who led the Israelites out of Egypt and performed miracles.
  • Elijah: The prophet who confronted idolatry, called down fire from heaven, and was taken directly to heaven without experiencing death (2 Kings 2:11).
• Their appearance at the transfiguration alongside Jesus (Matthew 17:3–4) adds to this theory.

Enoch and Elijah:

• Another theory suggests that the two witnesses could be Enoch and Elijah:
  • Enoch: The man who walked with God and was taken directly to heaven without experiencing death (Genesis 5:23; Hebrews 11:5).
  • Elijah: As mentioned earlier, he was also taken directly to heaven (2 Kings 2:11).
• Both Enoch and Elijah were prophets who pronounced God’s judgment.

I am not asking you who the 2 witnesses are.

I am asking do you believe they were present on Earth during AD 70.

If you believe its a future event, say so, and we will agree.

 

[Guojing]

Thank you for sharing your opinion on what you think I should do.

That means you made that up

 

[Diamond72]

If you believe its a future event, say so, and we will agree.

I think it is a future event and I think the two witness are the Church and the Hebrews.

 

[Jan001]

That means you made that up

No, it does not. Many people believe the way I do about this subject. You are not one of them.

 

[Jan001]

This is what the Jews of today believe, according to Ask the Rabbi:

The Just Ask! - AskTheRabbi.org Team​

God uses four expressions of redemption in describing our Exodus from Egypt and our birth as a nation:​

1. “I will take you out…”​

2. “I will save you…”​

3. “I will redeem you…”​

4. “I will take you as a nation…”​

Our Sages instituted that we should drink a cup of wine, a toast if you will, for each one of these expressions. We recite the Kiddush over the first cup, we read the Exodus story from the Haggada over the second cup, we recite the Grace after Meals over the third cup, and we sing the Hallel — Psalms and praises to God — over the fourth cup.​

​

There is actually a fifth expression in the above mentioned verses, “And I will bring you to the land which I promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and I will give it to you as an inheritance”.​

​

In honor of this verse we have a fifth cup at the Seder: the Cup of Elijah. This cup is set up for Elijah during the second half of the Seder, but we do not drink it.​

​

There are a number of explanations of the significance of the various stages of redemption conveyed through each of these expressions. Here is one:​

1. Salvation from harsh labor. This began as soon as the plagues were introduced.​

2. Salvation from servitude, on the day the Jews left Egypt geographically and arrived at Ramses.​

3. The splitting of the sea, after which the Jews felt completely redeemed, without fear of the Egyptians recapturing them.​

4. Becoming a nation at Sinai.​

While the Exodus from Egypt and the birth of the Jewish nation were permanent, we have not yet reached the ideal state of perfection. That is why the fifth expression/cup is different than the other four, and it is reserved for Elijah. Elijah will announce the arrival of Mashiach, who will bring all Jews to Israel.​

​

From: Four For Freedom​

 

[Guojing]

I think it is a future event and I think the two witness are the Church and the Hebrews.

I believe it will be Moses and Elijah.

Israel will be God's favored nation once again during the Tribulation, Enoch is just too far removed from them.

 

[keras]

I believe it will be Moses and Elijah.

Israel will be God's favored nation once again during the Tribulation, Enoch is just too far removed from them.

Why re-use OT people? The 2 Witnesses are not said to be anyone special, just 2 godly people, preaching the coming Kingdom, like the other 143,998 Witnesses will do.

The Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Many Prophesies tell us of the virtual demise of those apostate people. Only a remnant will survive.
Gods favoured peoples are the faithful Christians and any belief of a Jewish redemption, is wrong and made just to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.

 

[Diamond72]

I believe it will be Moses and Elijah.

Moses was there at the transfiguration with Elijah, but he was not raptured like Enoch was.

 

[Guojing]

Moses was there at the transfiguration with Elijah, but he was not raptured like Enoch was.

Well, who is better to convince Israel to believe Christ is their Messiah, and to turn water into blood, like Moses?

 

[Guojing]

Why re-use OT people? The 2 Witnesses are not said to be anyone special, just 2 godly people, preaching the coming Kingdom, like the other 143,998 Witnesses will do.

The Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Many Prophesies tell us of the virtual demise of those apostate people. Only a remnant will survive.
Gods favoured peoples are the faithful Christians and any belief of a Jewish redemption, is wrong and made just to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.

Elijah is prophesied in Malachi to come before Christ.

John the Baptist would have been him, had Israel accepted Christ as their Messiah at his first coming.

 

[keras]

Elijah is prophesied in Malachi to come before Christ.

Yes, but for a task much different than the 2W's. Revelation 11:4-7
Rather than trying to figure out the 2W's, it would be better for Christians to be aware of what the Lord intends to do next. The 2W's do not come into the scene until 1260 days before Jesus Returns.

 

[Diamond72]

Well, who is better to convince Israel to believe Christ is their Messiah, and to turn water into blood, like Moses?

Yes Moses is a far better witness second only to Christ Himself. But he is not a type of the rapture.

 

[Diamond72]

John the Baptist would have been him, had Israel accepted Christ as their Messiah at his first coming.

Matthew 11:14, Jesus says, “And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.”

John did not make that claim.

John 1:21 "They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 11:14, Jesus says, “And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.”

John did not make that claim.

John 1:21 "They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”

Well Jesus already said that, so why would you care that John did not make a similar claim?