Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[stevevw]

You are just rambling now. I can't make sense of any of this.

I posted the evidence so read it if your having trouble understanding what I am talking about. Its pretty common knowledge and am surprised if you research your topics that you have not heard of this before.

 

[RDKirk]

Dated, and not necessarily representative of the feminist movement as a whole.

They still define the ideology of the hard core that's actually making itself more clearly visible now than ever.

If you haven't read them, you wouldn't realize it.

 

[RDKirk]

OK so I am not quite understanding your point. Are you saying ideas like Feminism, Marxism, Queer or Race theorys are ideologies that are inherently destructful or that they are a good idea to help make a better, just and equal society. Or that aspects of Feminism are ok but the modern incarnation is harming society.

As you alluded earlier (and I owe you a response on that) Critical Theory is not the same thing as "critical thinking." Critical Theory is a particular ideological viewpoint that Marxism, Radical Feminism (capitalized because it's also a particular ideology), and Critical Race Theory have in common.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That doesn't mean the people within those religions who believe in Woke are not also believing in it like a religion. They have just incorporated aspects of Woke beliefs into their paricular religious beliefs.

But they are different to the mainstream believers. What you will notice about religions that do support Woke like Christians or any religion is that they will be in contradiction of their own religion such as supporting SSM marriage or abortion or female priests ect. They are not exactly the same and differ on important core beliefs.

There is no more point in discussing your woke-based fears. Stick to actual issues not categorizations of peoples.

I don't think Muslims can be Woke as it requires supporting minorities like Gays and fundementally Muslims are anti Gay. I mean we see protestors who support LGBTIQ+ community who are aligning their Woke beliefs and support with terrorist groups like Hamas in a weird relationship because they percieve Hamas as a victim group according to Woke. But if Gays went to actually live in a Muslim culture they would not last long.

There's something no secular society has a need to do -- murder people because of their sexual identity. A mark in our favor.

Religion itself is not special.

They were "special" only in that religions form a special category of its own and does not include all of these claimed "pseudoreligions" you want to lump in with religions. I have no use for that lumping and I'm done discussing it. I no longer care in the slightest about the things you want to prop up as "religion"...

The behaviour associated with religion is a natural human tendency. You can be religious about many things like money, material possessions, work or sports or a hobby. Its the behaviour of performing certain acts religiously. The religious part of traditional religions is just the ceremony or organisation of people who believe in the same thing according to their culture.

You could say Aussies are religious about their sports following it religiously and making sports stars gods. Or the Hollywood industry is religious in its ceremonies and god like actors who are worshipped where obsession with celebs life becomes religious. A person becomes religious about their work putting it above all else and observing all the rituals and performances that go with that.

How sport became the new religion – a 200-year story of society’s ‘great conversion’

How sport became the new religion – a 200-year story of society’s ‘great conversion’

Where once religion was a dominant force in society, now many more people reserve their faith for sport. But could the church use this to build a new following?

theconversation.com

Workism Is Making Americans Miserable
The decline of traditional faith in America has coincided with an explosion of new atheisms. Some people worship beauty, some worship political identities, and others worship their children. But everybody worships something. And workism is among the most potent of the new religions competing for congregants.

What is workism? It is the belief that work is not only necessary to economic production, but also the centerpiece of one’s identity and life’s purpose; and the belief that any policy to promote human welfare must always encourage more work.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/

When work becomes your religion

When work becomes your religion, nothing else matters - Berkeley News

UC Berkeley expert on religion examines the role that spirituality plays in productivity in Silicon Valley

news.berkeley.edu

I'm not casting anything. I am merely trying to explain how religious belief and belief in metaphysical ideas and spirituality is a normal and universal inclination and that this will be expressed in some way whether its through traditional religion or not.

... and that is it.

And what is left...

Your the one making it about competing religions because thats what you assume based on your assumptions and belief that religious people and Christians think a certain way stereotyping them.

I thought we were discussing *your* bad ideas (see OP).

 

[Hans Blaster]

Like I said the the New Woke religion is using Nobel causes as a front for sneaking in their ideology.

I am aware of your difficulties with typing/spelling, but random capitalization goes too far. You've gone from the nebulous notion of a woke religion to a "New Woke" label for one of the least well characterized things I have ever seen labeled.

As for noble causes (the correct typography) spelling it wrong implies it has something to do with Nobel Prizes (the one usage of that word where the "l" comes after the "e".)

 

[o_mlly]

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where sexxual immorality and pleasure and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator.

Sin darkens the intellect and weakens the will. The sexual revolution is exactly that: a revolt against the natural law that orders passions to intellect and the will to that informed intellect. The revolt reveres the process and orders one's will directly to one's passions.

The downfall is a spiral. Once one's intellect is darkened then other passions also begin to control one's behaviors. For instance, once one accepts sexual relations outside of marriage then homosexual behaviors becomes acceptable, then transgenderism becomes acceptable, etc.

 

[stevevw]

There is no more point in discussing your woke-based fears. Stick to actual issues not categorizations of peoples.

Woke and identity politics is a contemporary problem and I am not categorizing people but explaining the difference in Woke ideology and Christianity. The core differences that contradict Christianity. Or contradict the Christian truth principles we have come to know in the West due to Christian values.

There's something no secular society has a need to do -- murder people because of their sexual identity. A mark in our favor.

Yes this is based on Human Rights which is founded on Christian values and principles. But speaking of murdering people because of their identity that is exactly what Woke identity politics has created in modern society.

Identity groups have become polarised due to the hyper focus on identity differences. THe LGBTIQ+ community is fighting among itself, women are fighting with Trans ideology, Feminist are fight Trans and Gender ideologues and race is being hyper exentuated causing race and ethnic conflicts.

The extreme example of this is where some groups on both sides are threatening violence and even wiping out certain ethnic groups where antisemetism has resurfaced. Women who stand up for womens rights are being attacked and physically threatened for their life.

So the West the bastian of Freedom and Human Rights is cultivating the same kind of culture that does want to kill people because of their identity. That signifies that our society is not in good health like some make out.

They were "special" only in that religions form a special category of its own and does not include all of these claimed "pseudoreligions" you want to lump in with religions. I have no use for that lumping and I'm done discussing it. I no longer care in the slightest about the things you want to prop up as "religion"...

So you obviously disagree with the article explaining how humans are prone to believe and can be religious about many things besides the traditiional religions. THis is science, its fact from behavioural sciences.

... and that is it.

And what is left...

Not sure what you mean

I thought we were discussing *your* bad ideas (see OP).

Still not sure of what you mean.

 

[stevevw]

I am aware of your difficulties with typing/spelling, but random capitalization goes too far. You've gone from the nebulous notion of a woke religion to a "New Woke" label for one of the least well characterized things I have ever seen labeled.

Least well characterized. It has academic critical analysis of the foundations of Woke, can trace it through to todays expression of Woke, can show well supported arguements as to why its regarded as a religious and ideological belief and can show the actual evidence for its damaging effects on society.

Thats why it deserves a capital letter because its a major problem. You cannot argue with facts and logic.

As for noble causes (the correct typography) spelling it wrong implies it has something to do with Nobel Prizes (the one usage of that word where the "l" comes after the "e".)

Not sure what spelling has got to do with it. If its coming down to spelling thats a pretty weak objection. Its got nothing to do with the Nobel Prize. Its got to do with usings a good idea to hide the bad ideas of Woke into our Insstitutions, politics and society.

 

[stevevw]

Sin darkens the intellect and weakens the will. The sexual revolution is exactly that: a revolt against the natural law that orders passions to intellect and the will to that informed intellect. The revolt reveres the process and orders one's will directly to one's passions.

The downfall is a spiral. Once one's intellect is darkened then other passions also begin to control one's behaviors. For instance, once one accepts sexual relations outside of marriage then homosexual behaviors becomes acceptable, then transgenderism becomes acceptable, etc.

Then any parents become acceptable, then abortion, surrogacy, DRag Queen story time, kids sexualized through trans, pedophelia, ect ect etc.

I agree it opens the gate because if the idea is that a persons identity which is based on expressing their feelings then this becomes the new reality for who humans are. Everything comes down to the state of the persons feelings which usually means pleasure is good and pain and discomfort is bad (hedonism).

Any restraint from disallowing people to express themselves is seen as a denial of rights, or the true inner person who needs to be expressed into the world as the new reality even trumping objective reality where a persons identity even trumping the reality of embodied sex or any identity is a real entity in the world.

Of course when this idea is actually played out in reality, in real life situations as we have seen this causes a clash between our real lived objective experiences and the ideology of identity. This is what is now happening where identity groups are warring with each other and self imploding leaving society in a dangerous and unstable situation.

Its like a tinder box. All it will take is any situation that will provoke the sensibilities of any identity groups as we seen with the BLM riots or some of the prop Palestinian protests and it will go off like a powder keg. People are building resentment and anormosity towards difference to the point of violence.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes this is based on Human Rights which is founded on Christian values and principles.

Don't think that you aren't occasionally humorous. That was a good one.

So you obviously disagree with the article explaining how humans are prone to believe and can be religious about many things besides the traditiional religions. THis is science, its fact from behavioural sciences.

That evolution didn't have a reason to weed out this behavior tells me nothing about the facts of those "faiths", nor are they relevant to this thread.

Not sure what you mean

Still not sure of what you mean.

If you don't know your own thread topic, I can't help you with that.

 

[RDKirk]

You can tell the unreality of the ideology behind the nobel causes by how they pan out in society. For example Woke identity politics divides society into identity groups and highlights their differences. Fundementally that is in complete contradiction to equality and non descrimination by valuing and judging people by their differences. This pits groups against each other and causes conflicts which leads to anoemosity between people.

As we have been seeing different identity groups whether by race, ethnics, gender, sex or religion are attacking each other to the point of violents. The extreme expression of this ideology is how antisemetism which has resurfaced in modern democratic societies.

Any society that allows antisemetism to fester in our institutions and society is not in good health as far as the Western Truths we use to uphold like Dr King adovacted that a person was judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin, or sex, gender or the many other identies people have.

I don't know, but all this Critical analysis has resulted in an over extenuating and obsessing with every possible difference a human can have. The more intersecting identities of victimhood you have the more 'Clean" a person is. The more identities a person has with the percieved 'Unclean' identities of oppression such as being White and Male or having as a Colonialist or Slave holder the more you are unworthy.

Like I said this is dividing society and pitting people against each other. The opposite of equality. The ideas of Critical theories are dangerous and have no basis in fact or reality. They are based on certain assumpotions like Social Construction Theory where everything including reality itself is a social construction. And Postmodernism thinking where reality is self referential.

The idea of Critical thinking is different to the Critical Theories underpinning Woke or Identity politics. Critical thinking doesn't make any narrow assumptions about the world and infact looks at itself for bias. But as Woke ideology is like religious belief it sneaks in the assumptions about human nature and how the world and reality is ordered.

Take the Equity in DEI polcies. Equity as opposed to equality is about focuing on certain identity groups over others and priviledging them to equal society. THis is based on the assumption that all differences between humans is socially constructed and any difference is due to oppression. That is actually descrmination and promoting the very wrongs such as 'priviledge' that Woke condemns. It also destroys the long held Western truth principle of merit, competition, sacrifice and working hard to earn things.

THis is just a small example of how the new Woke or Identity politics of religion has infiltrated into society. The link I posted earlier may help understand how Identity politics works. Postmodermism also plays a role as this undermines that there are any Mata Truths or objective reality and makes 'Self' and identity as the determination of truth and how the world is.

I would imagine to a certain extent humans look at differences by nature. If we formed tribes even before any understanding of differences in a social sense then its instinctual to some extent. Maybe differences were more exentuated due to differ cultures mixing. Obviously if a bunch of white people come in ships to natives thats a pretty big culture shoch for all that brings attention to differences.

Times that by the many times people have mixed and we have a lot of differences and if people wanted to focus on those differences then it would exentuate them thus increasing the risk of exploiting or denegrating those differences. I would imagine thats human nature as well.

But all I know is that focusing and highlighting differences as Woke and identity politics do is not the answer as it actually makes it worse to the point of antisemetism. We need something that values humans just as humans regardless of their identity, the very opposite of Woke.

Yes we did some bad stuff in the past and we need to acknowledge this and do better. But the solution Woke and identity politics offers is not going to lead to some DEI Utopia but a dividied people tearing each other apart.

Because Critical analysis is the Trojan Horse to sneak the ideology in. Nobel reasons are used to enforce the ideology. Its good to ask questions and critically analyse things, human behaviour, how societies organize themselves as to being fair and just. Thats a fundemental truth thanks to western ideas.

But that is not what is happening with Critical theories like Race, Queer and Social Justice. We can find evdience of how these ideas actually cause injustice and inequality.

I think the average person perhaps the silent majority do use critical and commonsense thinking. They know when somethings not fair or unjust regardless of identity. But what they don't like is when their identity attacked for just being themselves. They are not unconsciously racist and are against racism and treating others badly.

Woke has created an industry out of doing peoples thinking by injecting their own ideology onto people. Their assumptions about human nature and the world. That everything comes down to oppressor and victim mentaly and a persons worth if the differences they identify with.

I think modern society being so PC over the last couple of decades has had so many inquiries, studies, research, conversations on breaking down the reasons who humans and societies do what they do that we are very 'WOKE' as in the old meaning of the word. Certainly those in positions of influence.

But that seems to be the problem. Like I said the new version of WOKE has been coopted into a different things. Whatever the thinking behind todays Woke is what it does well is take Nobel ideas like the original Woke, or in the name of Protection and uses that to attached the ideology to. That is just like the church use to do in oppressing people while preaching.

The problem is this is also exactly what those are doing who are accusing other groups of pointing the finger. ie certain identity groups are pointed out as being 'unclean' trouble makers, oppressors, the bad skins who must be exposed and stopped even destroyed. We seen this with the tearing down of all the icons of the West with statuse of Washington, and other important figures.

So it seems Wokist see themselves in the very people they call oppressors which is not the best way to overcome oppression by doing the same thing as the oppressors.

This sounds very similar to the antisemetism that has brewed by due to Wokism and identity politics. Several States are sponoring Hamas who represent a minority group against another minority group. This has more or less sent the message that its ok to descriminate and attack Jews all over the world and where antisemetism has resurfaced after we fought so hard to rid ourselves of it.

So wherever policies the Critical theories that underpin Woke and IP its not working. Its actually creating the very world they claim to want to prevent.

Honestly I did not see this part of your post when I spoke of the Jews above. Therefore if antisemetism has resurfaced and is even being promoted in this new secular religion of Woke what does that tell you about what Woke and identity politics is actually about. You can tell the merits of an idea or belief by the fruits it bears and Woke is not bearing good fruits but division, conflict and chaos.

Wait a minute doesn't the US have a ruling party that supports all the ideas of Wokism and identity politics. They even use Critical theory to underpin their policies and Laws. But like I said thats the very problem. The same thing is happening in Canada, Britain, Australia and NZ to a lesser extent.

Where is here. I'm in Australia. What I find fascinating is how two people can have completely opposing views and beliefs while both believing they they facts and truth. This shows how polaring this issue is that its producing polar opposite views. Usually there would be a large common ground of agreement in politics and culture.

So in saying that what you think could happen here wherever that is I think the opposite has already happened in most western nations. Which is Woke and Identity politics and the long march from the institutions into society has arrived.

It has been noted that when people enter a cult, the first thing they are told is "Everyone else is lying to you. Everything you've been told by everyone else is a lie."

Critical Theory is a development from Marxism that has built a scholarly framework around basic tenets of Marxism to embrace all lines of thought beyond economics. In its permutations (Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Radical Feminism, Decolonization, et cetera), it starts with two basic premises: The masses are being oppressed by an eternal, inherently evil Oppressor class and all extant human knowledge was created by this Oppressor class and functions in behalf of the Oppressor class. This includes politics, philosophy, science, art, mathematics, history...everything. Critical Theory teaches that "Everything you've been told is a lie for the sake of the Oppressor class." Thus, you must believe what they teach you about the world, and you can't attempt to validate it against any way of thinking you held before, such as logic or even physics because those were all invented by the Oppressor class for its own sake.

This is something I admit I had been sleeping on until the last couple of years. I'm very familiar with Marxist concepts (based on my studies in military intelligence), but I'd shrugged off right-wing accusations that Feminism, CRT, and other things were also "Marxist." But when I began reading the seminal documents of Critical Race Theory...I saw the Marxist concepts. That got me into looking into Critical Theory itself, then as I read seminal documents of Radical Feminism, Queer Theory, and finally most recently, Decolonization and DEI...they are all based on the same concepts and speak the same rhetoric. As I said, I've been sleeping. I hadn't realized how deeply Critical Theory has saturated so many areas, including education and government.

It's important to realize that when a person has fully bought into Critical Theory in any of its forms, that person is no longer reasoning from the same base of understanding as the rest of us. Remember, they have thrown out any of the logic or history or epistemology of the Oppressor class, which is usually anything European, but males and heterosexuals are also considered Oppressor classes.

It's also important to realize that under Critical Theory, there is no compromise or treaty possible with the Oppressor class. The Oppressor class must either be destroyed or reduced to social irrelevance....and kept that way forever.

Once you realize these things, Critical Theory becomes bizarre in its conclusions about virtually everything...and that bizarreness becomes unsurprising.

So, it's not directly anti-Semitism that drives Feminists and LGBTQ to support HAMAS, it's that they consider the Israelis to be European "colonizers." And don't bother talking to them about Middle East history, because they've thrown all that out...all the history you know was invented by the Oppressor Colonizers for their own benefit. You see how this works?

In fact, we are at a point that looks chillingly like the beginnings of the Chinese Cultural Revolution. We are already seeing huminites scholars, social scientists, and even medical science scholars being forced to recant in favor of Critical Theory in their fields in favor of the dictates of Critical Theory. This is how the Soviet Union wound up replacing Darwin with Lamarck....Lamark's theories fit the concepts better of how the Communists wanted to shape the "New Soviet Man."

It has damaged the black American community in several ways, the worst so far being the Radical Feminism that caught on in the 1980s, but it's also apparent the the new effort--even being taught in universities--to eradicate Colonizer thought from the minds of black people. This is a salient in the CRT battlefront in the push to eliminate European concepts of "respectability" from the black community. Of course, language, mathematics, even things like punctuality...all are the creations of the European Oppressor.

 

[stevevw]

Don't think that you aren't occasionally humorous. That was a good one.

Why when its fact. One of the core beliefs of CHristianity that we are made in Gods image with natural God given unalienable rights is a core fundemental truth principle for which Human Rights are based on.

The Greco Roman Pagan world was based on human values of human rights and made people greater or lessor in value. The Christian belief that human value was based on some divine status above humans change that view which led to the Magna Carta a forerunner to national Declarations, Constitutions and Bill or Rights based on the same principle.

The Magna Carta is said to be the forerunner of Human Rights which is based on Christian values.
Magna Carta and Human Rights

Magna Carta and Human Rights | Rule of Law Education Centre

www.ruleoflaw.org.au

The Great Covenant of Liberties: biblical principles and Magna Carta

The Great Covenant of Liberties: biblical principles and Magna Carta (Chapter 17) - Magna Carta, Religion and the Rule of Law

Magna Carta, Religion and the Rule of Law - April 2015

www.cambridge.org

In the most famous passage of the Declaration of Independence, it is easy to see the connection between theism and human rights: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

The philosophers of Greek and Roman antiquity “lacked the concept of human dignity,” Christian writers broke away from longstanding social practices related to slavery, prostitution, and neglect of the poor. Based on Christian convictions, they sometimes made first-in-world-history arguments against these practices. They did not need to wait for Jefferson or Immanuel Kant to enlighten them. The spread of Christianity opened unheard-of possibilities for reform, based on the notion that we all stand equal before our Creator.

The Christian Roots of Human Rights

Did the "Enlightenment" give us the concept of human dignity and equality? One historian suggests that those ideas have much deeper Christian roots.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

That evolution didn't have a reason to weed out this behavior tells me nothing about the facts of those "faiths", nor are they relevant to this thread.

It tells us that belief in divine ideas like a creative agent behind things, meaning and purpose in life, the soul, mind or life after death are al innate in humans. They provide real experiences about the world and reality. They are not some secondary byproduct that was evolved for some more important adaptation.

To say that all people of faith are deluded and their experiences are not real representations of reality is rather dismissive and I might say says nothing about whether their faith is unreal or that its an evolutionary byproduct.

It is relevant to the OP because as with the story of S&G it was about faith in God and following and trusting in Him rather than following down the road the people of S&G took. Or in the case of modern society denying GOd exists and that its all a myth and the only gods of our lives, the world and nature are ourselves just as the people of S&G believed.

If you don't know your own thread topic, I can't help you with that.

I don't get what your on about. I was talking about how religious belief can be able many things and that its a natural inclination in humans and gave evidence of this.

You said "Is that it". Not sure what that was suppose mean or what point you were making.

Then you made some fallacy about how religious belief that is not like traditional religion cannot be religious belief when I showed you that humans can hold religious type beliefs about many things like sports, money or Woke.

Woke has all the qualities of religious belief. I went through this before and posted the evidence support. It has a moral basis, a person must be Woke to be worthy. It condemns sinners, cancelling and shaming those who act and think wrong. This cannot be denied because we have actual real life evdience of it happening on a regular basis now with identity politics, PC and cancel culture.

I posted this evidence and you just dismiss it without any arguement as to why the evidence is wrong but rather commit another logical fallacy in attacking the authors and sources of the content rather than addressing the content.

 

[stevevw]

It has been noted that when people enter a cult, the first thing they are told is "Everyone else is lying to you. Everything you've been told by everyone else is a lie."

Critical Theory is a development from Marxism that has built a scholarly framework around basic tenets of Marxism to embrace all lines of thought beyond economics. In its permutations (Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Radical Feminism, Decolonization, et cetera), it starts with two basic premises: The masses are being oppressed by an eternal, inherently evil Oppressor class and all extant human knowledge was created by this Oppressor class and functions in behalf of the Oppressor class. This includes politics, philosophy, science, art, mathematics, history...everything.

Including culture and social relationships associated with gender, sex, race, class, which has brought the culture wars. The worldview is through the lens of oppressor and victim which divides society into identity groups of victims and oppressors. This creates a victim mentality which seeks to interpret all differences in equality caused by oppression of some sort rather than individual natural differences or merit.

Critical Theory teaches that "Everything you've been told is a lie for the sake of the Oppressor class." Thus, you must believe what they teach you about the world, and you can't attempt to validate it against any way of thinking you held before, such as logic or even physics because those were all invented by the Oppressor class for its own sake.

By dividing society into oppressed identities it denies the individual worth which is a fundemental truth principle of the West that we all all made in Gods image with individual unalienable natural rights.

I makes individual beholden to the group, the identities status thus placing the value of people on stereotypical traits of identity groups, their skin colour, gender, sex, rather than the common worth and dignity of just being human. Woke ideology actually cultivates the very inequality, descrimination and oppression of people rather than creating some DEI Utopia.

This is something I admit I had been sleeping on until the last couple of years. I'm very familiar with Marxist concepts (based on my studies in military intelligence), but I'd shrugged off right-wing accusations that Feminism, CRT, and other things were also "Marxist." But when I began reading the seminal documents of Critical Race Theory...I saw the Marxist concepts. That got me into looking into Critical Theory itself, then as I read seminal documents of Radical Feminism, Queer Theory, and finally most recently, Decolonization and DEI...they are all based on the same concepts and speak the same rhetoric. As I said, I've been sleeping. I hadn't realized how deeply Critical Theory has saturated so many areas, including education and government.

And this is the key, educating people on the theories and thinking behind Woke identity politics today. Tracing it back to academia of the 80's and 90's which stemmed from the 60's and 70's revolutions and then into our Insitutions and in the last couple of decades into mainstream society. This is summed up in the book 'The Long March through the Insitutions' which explains how these fringe theories became mainstream policy and law.

I think other factors have also contributed. Postmodernism is the overarching intellectual period and this feeds into the Critical theories and identity politics. Its about relative truth rather than facts or objective reality. THis was the thinking back then where critical thinking became criticizing and dismantling everything and then reinterpreting the world through literature and art where narratives are what creates reality.

This feeds into Queer thoery and identity politics in that identity has become the true measure of things, how people feel and express themselves. Queer theory is all about expressing, acting out to find true meaning. It also has a Feminist base in that Feminism was about making the personal political. So these ideas support each other.

Then theres social media. I think this has changed the landscape in how people see each other and the world. People have detached from face to face and live a more digital relationships. This feeds into the mix as it is an ideal plaatform to create self expressed worlds with Influencers and Blogs and Fake News and all sorts of conspiracies and narratives.

Lastly I think the Pandemic feed into this in that it consolidated digital life, polarised us more, and has led to new ways of influencing people and polititics. All these factors have combined to create what we have today.

It's important to realize that when a person has fully bought into Critical Theory in any of its forms, that person is no longer reasoning from the same base of understanding as the rest of us. Remember, they have thrown out any of the logic or history or epistemology of the Oppressor class, which is usually anything European, but males and heterosexuals are also considered Oppressor classes.

Yes its like religious belief in that the person is sacrificing their individual truth and agency in the world for the oppressed groups ideology of how they see the world.

It's also important to realize that under Critical Theory, there is no compromise or treaty possible with the Oppressor class. The Oppressor class must either be destroyed or reduced to social irrelevance....and kept that way forever.

Yes according to the Woke whites are inherently racist and always will be. They can only attone and make themselves acceptable by continual repentence of pledging to anti racisism but will never be fully forgiven.

This is opposed to forgiveness of sins through Christ which are fully paid for and pardoned.

Once you realize these things, Critical Theory becomes bizarre in its conclusions about virtually everything...and that bizarreness becomes unsurprising.

But I don't think its that hard to see the illogical and baseless idea of the Critical theories. For example a basic tenet is Equity. Under policies such as quotas and affirmative action is based on equity. But this idea is actually reverse descrimination in principle.

Your priviledging one group based on race, sex or gender over another race sex or gender which is doing exactly what the ideology claims to be preventing.

So, it's not directly anti-Semitism that drives Feminists and LGBTQ to support HAMAS, it's that they consider the Israelis to be European "colonizers." And don't bother talking to them about Middle East history, because they've thrown all that out...all the history you know was invented by the Oppressor Colonizers for their own benefit. You see how this works?

Yes in other words Hamas is regarded more of a victim of oppression than the Isrealis and any terror is overlooked because it is all justified in fighting oppression. Any actions Isreal takes to defend themselves against those terror attacks are seen as oppression because they are already assumed to be oppressors based on a skewed view of the world as victim/oppressor.

This literally makes evil good and good evil. Its basically the same ideology across the board where nobel reasons are entangled in evil intentions. That is why people are fooled. That is why theres a growing anti semetism in universities because that is the hotbed of where Critical theories grew and are stll brainwashing young people.

That is why we have university department heads supporting anti-semetism and 70% of Jewish students fearing for their life on Camuses. Or why you will now hear young people who have been influenced and blined actually say they think its ok to get rid of an entire ethnic group in the name of righting the wrongs of oppression. That is the extreme expression of the ideology today which shows how dangerous it is.

New research shows widespread antisemitism in universities and online

'Scared to be publicly Jewish': Students facing widespread antisemitism at university

New research shows the disturbing levels of antisemitism faced by young people, both on university campuses and online.

www.abc.net.au

The Rise of Antisemitism Is Real, and Should Not Be Ignored
“If nothing is done to confront it, it will only get worse—at BU and across the world”

POV: The Rise of Antisemitism Is Real, and Should Not Be Ignored

“If nothing is done to confront it, it will only get worse—at BU and across the world”

www.bu.edu

Over 70% of US Jewish college students exposed to antisemitism this school year, survey finds

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/over-70-us-jewish-college-students-exposed-antisemitism-this-school-year-survey-2023-11-29/

In fact, we are at a point that looks chillingly like the beginnings of the Chinese Cultural Revolution. We are already seeing huminites scholars, social scientists, and even medical science scholars being forced to recant in favor of Critical Theory in their fields in favor of the dictates of Critical Theory. This is how the Soviet Union wound up replacing Darwin with Lamarck....Lamark's theories fit the concepts better of how the Communists wanted to shape the "New Soviet Man."

Yes many commentators have mentioned this that there is a Totalitarian aspect of Woke Identity politics. Peterson is big on this as he has been experiencing this first hand with his disagreement of certain Canadian Bills which make force speak a law such as with pronouns. But also personally with a couple of podcasts he did where he critized the government so they are forcing him into what they call a "re education program" to teach him what is the proper way to think and speak online.

As Peterson said its no coincident that every so called breach of codes aligns exactly with the ideological differences between himeself and the Leftist Canadian government. But this is happening to 1,000s of people. In fact you just remined when you were mentioning Russia, Russian/Brit Konstantin Kisin mentions there were more people arrested in Britain (3300) for saying the wrong thing on social media than in Russia (400).

It has damaged the black American community in several ways, the worst so far being the Radical Feminism that caught on in the 1980s, but it's also apparent the the new effort--even being taught in universities--to eradicate Colonizer thought from the minds of black people. This is a salient in the CRT battlefront in the push to eliminate European concepts of "respectability" from the black community. Of course, language, mathematics, even things like punctuality...all are the creations of the European Oppressor.

Yes but what they don't realize is that this ideology actually creates the "us and them" mentality by aligning identities are good and evil based on the color of their skin, or their sex and gender or any other identity or mix of identities. Its actuaslly winding back rights and thinking.

In a misunderstood and nobel attempt to reccctify the injustices of the past they have thrown the baby out with the bath water and rejected the very truth principles that have allowed them to be in the position to even have the freedom to denegrate white people and their own culture. Any society that allows antisemetism to rise again and is so preoccupied with tearing itself apart is not a healthy one spiritually or mentally.

Your post is spot on and you make some very good points so thankyou for mentioning these important aspects people need to understand if they are to understand where society is at today.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Why when its fact. One of the core beliefs of CHristianity that we are made in Gods image with natural God given unalienable rights is a core fundemental truth principle for which Human Rights are based on.

When one of the principles of human rights is the freedom of worship and the very *first* order of the Christian god is "no other gods" I think we can stop the comparison.

The Greco Roman Pagan world was based on human values of human rights and made people greater or lessor in value. The Christian belief that human value was based on some divine status above humans change that view which led to the Magna Carta a forerunner to national Declarations, Constitutions and Bill or Rights based on the same principle.

The Magna Carta is said to be the forerunner of Human Rights which is based on Christian values.
Magna Carta and Human Rights

Ye olde magna carta sure has an overblown reputation for a document settling disputes between the top two levels of the feudal order (king and nobles) that functioned for barely a generation.

 

[RDKirk]

When one of the principles of human rights is the freedom of worship and the very *first* order of the Christian god is "no other gods" I think we can stop the comparison.

That command is only for people who profess to believe in Him. Everyone else can still believe in as many gods as they want.

You realize that "separation of church and state" is concept conceived by Christians, right? And it was Christians who insisted on it being written into the Constitution.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That command is only for people who profess to believe in Him. Everyone else can still believe in as many gods as they want.

You should check with the other Christians. An awful lot of them seem to think the 10 commandments apply to everyone.

You realize that "separation of church and state" is concept conceived by Christians, right? And it was Christians who insisted on it being written into the Constitution.

They did understand what other Christians would do with the power to pick a religion.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I am interested in this as I was speaking to some friends the other day about how especially in the media, Hollywood, Music and entertainment there seems to be this pagan or even Satanic ritualistism going on.

Just a reminder of what the thread is about. Right here in sentence one of the OP.

Things like wearing these head dresses with goat horns and other pagan symbols. Its alwats very provocative and sexual as well. Almost a celebration of our animalistic side.

The last time I saw some one in an animal-horn headdress he finished his occupation of government office by making a prayer *to Jesus*.

I think I know what is happening.

OK, let's see if this holds...

Just loike in the days when people defied God they turned to nature, to animals and nature itself like Stone idols.

When Exactly in the past have people turned against *your god* (note your usage of capital "G" God) to worship nature or stone idols? There certainly those kinds of worship in the past (and even today to some extent), but the vast majority had either never heard of your god or had never worshiped it.

Now that modern society is rejecting God this same belief is coming back. It may seem natural for people to worship nature as god. But primarily when this happens its not really about gods in nature but the self as god.

Pagans and animists worship various gods, spirits, and even ancestors. Where do you see them worshiping themselves?

Actual paganism is not very widespread (a few percent, maybe, probably less) in Western nations. It has very little to do with the current culture war issues brought up here.

Also in those times people were made gods when theres no transcendent God. As self is god desires and feelings and self experience becomes the god.

When there "is no transcendent god" or when people don't believe in such a thing?

Therefore pleasure and all the good feelings are moral and the aweful feeling ones are sin.

This is a poor representation of secular (non-religious) ethics and morality. (Also we don't use "sin" as a label for anything. It is a religious concept.)

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where sexxual immorality and pleasure and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator.

I don't have any reason to think "Sodom" or "Gomorrah" were ever real places. (I suspect they are legendary cities used to illustrate a moral point from the authors of whatever book they are mentioned in.)

What "empires" have falled from sexual immorality and pleasure?

 

[stevevw]

When one of the principles of human rights is the freedom of worship and the very *first* order of the Christian god is "no other gods" I think we can stop the comparison.

Thats a false analogy of the CHristian God. The 10 Commandments also say don't steal or commit adultery but many do and its the same for all religions. God has His laws just like society does but that doesn't force anyone to follow those laws. God gives us the free will to choose or not choose to believe and follow Him.

Ye olde magna carta sure has an overblown reputation for a document settling disputes between the top two levels of the feudal order (king and nobles) that functioned for barely a generation.

No it doesn't. It was more than just that. Its principles of making all equal before the law whether king or peasant is the same principle as all people being equal in other rights. These same principles were evolved into early Bill of Rights and then national Constitutions and Declarations.

But like I said we can go back further to when Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. At the time the Empire religion was Paganism which regarded people as property. Males were above women who were above slaves. Males were allowed adultery and homosexuality was the norm for many well to do men.

Christianity changed all that making all people including women equal as a biblical principle of being equal in Christ whether slave or free. Of course adultery was stopped giving wives more protection and homosexuality and other practices with Pagan belief. People were given more worth as being made in Gods image.

These same principle went on to form the basis for the average persons Rights which were reflected in the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights and especially the American Declaration of Independence. The same principles are found in Human Rights.

The principle that all humans are made in Gods image is still reflected in HR in that all people are endowed with natural unalienable Rights. Meaning no human whether State or any power can deny those Rights. Humans are born with those Rights like they are a law of nature.

 

[stevevw]

Just a reminder of what the thread is about. Right here in sentence one of the OP.

Not sure what you mean. Mentioning how the entertainment industry is practicing Pagan rituals and beliefs is related to the OP as following false beliefs was part of going down the road to S&G. They just happened to follow similar beliefs.

The last time I saw some one in an animal-horn headdress he finished his occupation of government office by making a prayer *to Jesus*.

Well that would have been interesting. But how does that show that wearing animalistic head rests is a Christian ritual.

OK, let's see if this holds...

When Exactly in the past have people turned against *your god* (note your usage of capital "G" God) to worship nature or stone idols? There certainly those kinds of worship in the past (and even today to some extent), but the vast majority had either never heard of your god or had never worshiped it.

The bible mentions that all know of God through His creation. The Pagan Gods were about human made gods that represented nature rather than the God who created nature. Just as the bible says that people would worship animals and the created rather than God the creator. The Isrealites followed the same form of worship when they rejected God such as the Golden Calf. Its the go to belief when people reject God.

Pagans and animists worship various gods, spirits, and even ancestors. Where do you see them worshiping themselves?

Because the animals and other gods represent human aspects rather than God. They make human behaviour godlike such as sex being reflected in animal or other creatures like Frogs which represent the fertility god. It elevates sex as being divine including sexual immorality.

So human behaviour is elevated to godlike status by being dictated by these gods in the form of animals and idols which elevate human as gods by projecting divinity and creative power based on human ideas.

Actual paganism is not very widespread (a few percent, maybe, probably less) in Western nations. It has very little to do with the current culture war issues brought up here.

Many new age beliefs are based in Paganism in worshiping nature, animals, crystals, trees ect and this seems to be the biggest growth in belief. Even the Vikings gods are becoiming more popular or the worship of astrology and the sun and moon. Even events like Halloween are takking on new meaning as a form of paganism and witchery.

Why paganism and witchcraft are making a comeback
Witchcraft, which includes Wicca, paganism, folk magic and other New Age traditions, is one of the fastest-growing spiritual

Opinion | Why paganism and witchcraft are making a comeback

On a recent trip to Salem, Massachusetts, I overheard the same question: Is magic really real? For me, the answer is yes.

www.nbcnews.com

Number Of Witches Rises Dramatically Across U.S. As Millennials Reject Christianity

Number Of Witches Rises Dramatically Across U.S.

The practice of witchcraft in the U.S. has rise dramatically over the past few decades, with millennials turning to astrology, tarot cards and Wicca beliefs as they turn away from Christianity and other traditional religions.

www.newsweek.com

Dawn of the new pagans

Dawn of the new pagans: ‘Everybody’s welcome – as long as you keep your clothes on!’

From the Green Man on King Charles’s coronation invitation to celebrations selling out across the UK, more and more people identify as pagan, or at least pagan-curious. What lies behind its growing appeal?

www.theguardian.com

When there "is no transcendent god" or when people don't believe in such a thing?

When people don't choose to believe in God or a god they make gods out of humans. It is the natural thing to do if people believed in some sort of divine aspect of reality they would endow the divinity with human qualities and make themselves gods or vessels for the gods to speak on behalf of the gods to the people. As the Egyptians and many other cultures did. Alexander the Great was thought of as a demi-god.

This is a poor representation of secular (non-religious) ethics and morality. (Also we don't use "sin" as a label for anything. It is a religious concept.)

Why, don't secularist believe in subjective morality, that morals are based on feelings and not anything objective. It seems a natural evolution that if God is removed as the moral law giver then morality would naturally fall back on feelings. If it feels good is morally good and if it causes pain and displeasure its morally bad.

I don't have any reason to think "Sodom" or "Gomorrah" were ever real places. (I suspect they are legendary cities used to illustrate a moral point from the authors of whatever book they are mentioned in.)

There is evidence they existed.

Archeological Evidence For The Destruction Of Sodom And Gomorrah

Sodom and Gomorrah - cities totally obliterated by fire from heaven. So states your Bible.And now, so states archeological evidences.The scriptural account of Sodom and Gomorrah's divine devastation is famous. The scriptural account is far from being simply a myth, nevertheless. Researchers have...

evidence-for-the-bible.com

What "empires" have falled from sexual immorality and pleasure?

Its not just about sexual immorality and pleasure. Sexual immorality and pleasure of the result of a breakdown in morals generally. Where society is more relativistic and there is no moral truths. This undermines morality in that any behaviour can be rationalised as ok so long as it doesn't harm others. The sexual revolution was about freeing oneself from the restraints of past inhibitions and making self referential truth the determination of what is moral.

This naturally leads to feelings being the measure of morality. Pleasure is good and pain and discomfort is bad. Sex is seen as a human indulgence that pleases and fullfills and becomes the ultimate measure of happiness.

This same trajectory has been seen in Empires, nations, cultures even in cities where the breakdown in morals leads to a breakdowm in sexual morality before the society begins to lose its moorings and decline.

J.D. Unwin and Why Sexual Morality May be Far More Important than You Ever Thought

J.D. Unwin and Why Sexual Morality May be Far More Important than You Ever Thought — Quest

Oxford social anthropologist J.D. Unwin discovered that when a highly developed culture undergoes an increase in sexual freedom, a collapse of that culture follows within three generations. The historical data reveals this pattern with “monotonous” regularity.

www.kirkdurston.com

 

[RDKirk]

Just a reminder of what the thread is about. Right here in sentence one of the OP.

The last time I saw some one in an animal-horn headdress he finished his occupation of government office by making a prayer *to Jesus*.

OK, let's see if this holds...


When Exactly in the past have people turned against *your god* (note your usage of capital "G" God) to worship nature or stone idols? There certainly those kinds of worship in the past (and even today to some extent), but the vast majority had either never heard of your god or had never worshiped it.



Pagans and animists worship various gods, spirits, and even ancestors. Where do you see them worshiping themselves?

Actual paganism is not very widespread (a few percent, maybe, probably less) in Western nations. It has very little to do with the current culture war issues brought up here.

When there "is no transcendent god" or when people don't believe in such a thing?

This is a poor representation of secular (non-religious) ethics and morality. (Also we don't use "sin" as a label for anything. It is a religious concept.)

I don't have any reason to think "Sodom" or "Gomorrah" were ever real places. (I suspect they are legendary cities used to illustrate a moral point from the authors of whatever book they are mentioned in.)

What "empires" have falled from sexual immorality and pleasure?

Well, the US military these days officially recognizes paganism. That's why troops who follow the Norse religion are allowed to wear beards.