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Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Whyayeman

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Its seems as if the majority of humans fall prey to one or other notion: either things used to very much better, or things used to be very much worse. This seems to emerge from loose (or excessively narrow) definitions of what is better and what is worse, coupled with a heavt reliance on opinion and anecdote to support ones position.
Well, yes, many people do. I agree that the evidence offered for either proposition is generally scanty and anecdotal. History clearly gives the lie to the proposition that humanity is more wicked than formerly. For the religious there is the evidence of wickedness in the Biblical stories which indicate that the human condition has not changed much.

For the rest of us I recommend a very thoroughly researched book to examine the issue; The Better Angels of our Nature by Steven Pinker. It is packed with strong evidence which shows that, when it comes to violence at any rate, the past was a great deal bloodier than the present and shows a fairly steady decline in wars, genocides and individual violence over the period of recorded history.
 
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stevevw

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Where did you get the idea that "woke ideology" is atheistic?
I never said it was and in fact said its like a religious belief. So in that sense they are not atheist as far as metaphysical beliefs about human nature and nature itself and based on this how we should order society as with DEI policies which form the catechism and identity acting as the new dualism aspect of beyond the body and phsycial world.

Identity cannot be measured in objective terms just like the spiritual aspect of humans thats behind religion. Yet identity is given special status and powers which can determine reality. Subjective feelings and beliefs about self in the world trump objective reality as the new measure of reality.

Very similar to how the Mind/Body Dualism works except instead of the soul or spiritual aspect that is beyond the body it is identity which is given the same qualities.
 
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Whyayeman

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I never said it was and in fact said its like a religious belief. So in that sense they are not atheist as far as metaphysical beliefs about human nature and nature itself and based on this how we should order society as with DEI policies which form the catechism and identity acting as the new dualism aspect of beyond the body and phsycial world.

Identity cannot be measured in objective terms just like the spiritual aspect of humans thats behind religion. Yet identity is given special status and powers which can determine reality. Subjective feelings and beliefs about self in the world trump objective reality as the new measure of reality.

Very similar to how the Mind/Body Dualism works except instead of the soul or spiritual aspect that is beyond the body it is identity which is given the same qualities.
You are just rambling now. I can't make sense of any of this.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I already explained why "Western Christian Culture" is meaningless. And your use of "Woke" is likewise meaningless, because "Woke" doesn't have a clear definition either, certainly not the way you're using it. Woke, as it originated in the black community in America, to refer to recognizing and acknowledging systemic racial injustice certainly isn't the way you're using it. You're using "woke" to simply mean "liberal-progressive stuff which I don't like".

It's a nonsense phrase because you're using nonsense terms. It's all emotive without substance, it's feeling devoid of fact.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" was straight out third-wave feminism, a sentiment that didn't exist until they created it.

White folks can stand for a while longer to be complacent about that, but black Americans have always been the canary in this coal mine. The "I don't need a man to help me raise my children" sentiment that arose among black women in the 80s has ravaged us. It came from nowhere but third-wave feminism. The intention was to destroy the family. It's in their books--they didn't hide it, they wrote about it. Read black feminist Bell Hooks.

I suppose I make a distinction between feminism and gender-war rhetoric. I don't consider misandry to be feminism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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stevevw

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Yeah, but Western Christian Culture isn't a religious belief. Here's an example: Many Christians believe that homosexuality is sin, and I assume they will continue to do so. However, resisting the notion that the non-Christian citizens of a secular state should be allowed civil marriage regardless of their sexual orientation is a cultural artifact.
Yes but its a cultural artifact of the moderns secular State. Thats the point that secular society in gradually rejecting the church and God out of the public square the culture has changed from that Christian worldview that underpinned Western nations.

Going back even recently most of these nations rejected SSM, go back a bit further and homosexuality was illegal and a bit further still and adultery was illegal. So of course as the secular State has replaced the Church as the arbitor of how society should be ordered as the church did then they have taken much of this over.

Like the welfare State and how the State has encroached more on our private lives, on matters of sex, family, thr freedoms to think, believe and speak. So its obvious that the State and its agents are playing Church, installing a new form of religious belief under Woke and DEI which has replaced the Christian worldview. Which is a natural evolution when any culture changes the basis for their beliefs and values.

Removing Christianity from the public square is no small thing. Its been a long haul through the institutions over many decades. But we have seen its rapid rise in the last 20 odd years. So the foundational work was already being done and waiting in the fringes to take over.
 
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stevevw

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I already explained why "Western Christian Culture" is meaningless. And your use of "Woke" is likewise meaningless, because "Woke" doesn't have a clear definition either, certainly not the way you're using it. Woke, as it originated in the black community in America, to refer to recognizing and acknowledging systemic racial injustice certainly isn't the way you're using it. You're using "woke" to simply mean "liberal-progressive stuff which I don't like".

It's a nonsense phrase because you're using nonsense terms. It's all emotive without substance, it's feeling devoid of fact.

-CryptoLutheran
I agree Woke is not a good description because its a word that already has a different meaning and history. I think its because both the original Woke and todays use of it had the same principle, to be aware of injustices but todays Woke is based on certain assumptions about how that systemic injustice works and how we can reorder society to make it equal.

Woke is actually a braod term for all the aspects of Woke like PC, cancel culture and identity politics and the rise of these can be specifically traced back to Critical Race, Queer and Social Justice theoy. It has its own language, meaning and morality. We can clearly identify this through laws and plicies in our institutions and organisations.

If you have not studies how this movement has evolved and infiltrated modern society then you will see this as some sort of conspiract theory or unfounded. But its not and the evdience is there.

Maybe we can change the name and call it something like identity politics or PC as it use to be called. Its just that its morphed into so many aspects and keeps changing all the time so its hard to determine it by just PC or identity politics. Thats why religion fits so well because it is all inclusive of a worldview, how we see the world and reality.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I agree Woke is not a good description because its a word that already has a different meaning and history. I think its because both the original Woke and todays use of it had the same principle, to be aware of injustices but todays Woke is based on certain assumptions about how that systemic injustice works and how we can reorder society to make it equal.

Woke is actually a braod term for all the aspects of Woke like PC, cancel culture and identity politics and the rise of these can be specifically traced back to Critical Race, Queer and Social Justice theoy. It has its own language, meaning and morality. We can clearly identify this through laws and plicies in our institutions and organisations.

If you have not studies how this movement has evolved and infiltrated modern society then you will see this as some sort of conspiract theory or unfounded. But its not and the evdience is there.

Maybe we can change the name and call it something like identity politics or PC as it use to be called. Its just that its morphed into so many aspects and keeps changing all the time so its hard to determine it by just PC or identity politics. Thats why religion fits so well because it is all inclusive of a worldview, how we see the world and reality.

You're using words like "infiltrate".

Allow me to provide a different perspective: People are becoming aware of how there are some deeply embedded problems in the general narratives of how we have spoken about one another, how we have treated one another. At a systematic level.

It's one thing to say "Racism bad", it's another thing altogether to ask, how did we get here where this thing called "racism" exists. And it's not as simple as "people have always been prejudiced". Well, yeah, there have always been prejudices, but why these specific prejudices. Where did this idea of "white" come from? It didn't exist a thousand years ago, if you went back a thousand years in Europe you won't find "whiteness", you won't find these clear boundaries of "race". People recognized differences, an Ethiopian was dark, for example, and the term "black" could be used. People recognized that there were tribes, nations (ethnicities), and the term "race" could be applied to ethnic groups. But when we look at the history of race and racism, in the context of American history, or in the broader context of Western European history going back a few centuries, we see emerging ideas, emerging concepts. The ways in which dominant peoples excused suppressing, dominating, and subjugating other peoples.

Why, for example, in spite of the fact that the Catholic Church, Catholic organizations (e.g. the Jesuits), condemn mistreatment of indigenous people and advocate for indigenous rights; and even the Spanish crown (for example) employing laws which condemned colonial mistreatment of indigenous people--and yet we still have that subjugation of indigenous people by colonizers? And how have ideas and systems, beginning with colonization, which mistreated native populations, resulted in the shaping of the history of colonial powers.

How did America, beginning as a series of British colonies, come to behave the way it did--at a hierarchal and systematic way--in the mistreatment of certain persons? Why did post-colonial America find forced removal of native populations, and even the systematic murder (genocide) of indigenous American peoples something excusable?

That's where "Critical Race Theory" comes into play: Studying the history, taking a critical look, at the how these things came to be, how it happened. How has "whiteness" as an idea evolved, in the colonial and post-colonial world. Why did, for example, Americans in the mid-19th century regard Irish Catholics (for example) as a racially inferior group. The Irish were not "white", even though, obviously, indigenous Irish people are fair-skinned--it was a lot more than just skin color. So a critical analysis of "whiteness" a critical analysis of "race", and how these--and many other things--have emerged, developed, and affected society not just at the bottom, but at systemic levels are valuable questions to pursue.

If we want to understand why things are as they are, and if we say "being racist is bad", well why is there is this "racism" thing in the first place? Why is there this way of talking about "white people" as opposed to "black people" a thing? How have these concepts of "white" and "black" played a role in the history of the United States? What assumptions have we, because we are living in the culture, simply grown up with uncritically, just accepting as "the way things are".

And then, ask yourself, why are there so many people mad at asking these questions? Why is there such a concerted effort to stomp out honest inquiry, to stomp out the asking of questions, why is the pursuit of critical historical analysis something being so deeply opposed by certain people in power?

Now ask yourself this, if "woke" means becoming aware of the deep and systematic problems of racial injustice; and if "woke" people want to dig deeper, below the surface, to understand history and seeking a critical analysis of this--why are these same people so opposed to genuine, sincere inquiry and the pursuit of understanding wanting to demean, attack, ridicule, and demonize "woke"?

What do you think might be their motivations? What could people in power gain by silencing criticism and inquiry? And if you ask yourself that, and if you are honest with yourself about that, then you'll probably end up becoming "woke" yourself.

Because when people in power have their power challenged the best way to deflect criticism and investigation is to point the finger at a group, and say "those people are dangerous". And if you think that's a far-fetched idea, then perhaps you should spend more time reading history books.

Want to know a famous example of that happening? Just look at the first state-sponsored persecution of Christians under Nero. That's exactly what happened. Nero was hated, despised, how did Nero deflect? He pointed the finger at a new minority religious group: Christians. When Rome burned, he blamed the fire on us; and then he had us put to death, he had us hung on crosses, he had the Apostle Paul beheaded, he had St. Peter crucified, he took us and covered us in tar and lit us on fire to light his imperial gardens.

More recently, just look at the Nazis, and all the different people they scapegoated, especially the Jews, resulting in the extermination of over 6 million Jewish men, women, and children. But also who else did they scapegoat? Communists, socialists, Roma, the handicapped, homosexuals, religious minorities, and anyone who dared to question and speak out against them.

And if you think, "Well, America isn't Nero's Rome or Hitler's Germany", then you're not paying attention to history, nor learning the lessons thereof. Because "It can't happen here" is ignorance of the dangers which we have seen happen again and again.

Want to understand "woke", then understand this: It could happen here, unless we are vigilant. Otherwise, "When fascism comes to America it will come carrying the flag and a cross".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I am interested in this as I was speaking to some friends the other day about how especially in the media, Hollywood, Music and entertainment there seems to be this pagan or even Satanic ritualistism going on. Things like wearing these head dresses with goat horns and other pagan symbols. Its alwats very provocative and sexual as well. Almost a celebration of our animalistic side.

I think I know what is happening. Just loike in the days when people defied God they turned to nature, to animals and nature itself like Stone idols. Now that modern society is rejecting God this same belief is coming back. It may seem natural for people to worship nature as god. But primarily when this happens its not really about gods in nature but the self as god.

Also in those times people were made gods when theres no transcendent God. As self is god desires and feelings and self experience becomes the god. Therefore pleasure and all the good feelings are moral and the aweful feeling ones are sin.

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where sexxual immorality and pleasure and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator.
Path?
We are there lock, stock, and barrel. What did people do in S&G that they are not doing here and now?
Go home, lock your doors, stock up on food, and go from single barrel to double. It's going crazy out there, and somehow, the normal and nature are the bad guys.
 
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RDKirk

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I suppose I make a distinction between feminism and gender-war rhetoric. I don't consider misandry to be feminism.

-CryptoLutheran
When I look at words for movements like "Marxism" and "Fascism" and "Feminism" that have been defined by the people who created them, I prefer to use the definitions of the people who created them. For instance, when I want to know what Fascism is, I look at the seminal writings of the philosophers and politicians who called themselves Fascist. Nobody else's definition really matters.

Feminism, according to the seminal writings of its own theorists, is misandrist, just as by the seminal writings of its own theorists, Marxism is anti-capitalist.
 
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RDKirk

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I agree Woke is not a good description because its a word that already has a different meaning and history. I think its because both the original Woke and todays use of it had the same principle, to be aware of injustices but todays Woke is based on certain assumptions about how that systemic injustice works and how we can reorder society to make it equal.

Woke is actually a braod term for all the aspects of Woke like PC, cancel culture and identity politics and the rise of these can be specifically traced back to Critical Race, Queer and Social Justice theoy. It has its own language, meaning and morality. We can clearly identify this through laws and plicies in our institutions and organisations.

If you have not studies how this movement has evolved and infiltrated modern society then you will see this as some sort of conspiract theory or unfounded. But its not and the evdience is there.

Maybe we can change the name and call it something like identity politics or PC as it use to be called. Its just that its morphed into so many aspects and keeps changing all the time so its hard to determine it by just PC or identity politics. Thats why religion fits so well because it is all inclusive of a worldview, how we see the world and reality.
The reason the Right has taken up the use of "woke" as a political pejorative is because of what you have said.

Left wing activists themselves appropriated the term "woke" and began using it to describe themselves and their own activities. And that is how the Right heard of the term and the circumstances it was being used.

Black women are still rather annoyed that Left wing activists also appropriated "cancel" and "me too" from them and began using them in far broader ways and with somewhat different meanings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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We are there lock, stock, and barrel. What did people do in S&G that they are not doing here and now?
Go home, lock your doors, stock up on food, and go from single barrel to double. It's going crazy out there, and somehow, the normal and nature are the bad guys.

Well, generally, we don't form rape mobs to intimidate visitors. So there is that. But there certainly is overlap. We see the way in which God rebuked Jerusalem through the Prophet Ezekiel, by speaking of Sodom's guilt of how the vulnerable were mistreated--a charge being levied against Jerusalem. It's also language Jesus invokes, going so far as to say "Woe to you Chorazin! Woe to you Bethsaida!" that had the wonders and things done in them were done in Sodom, Sodom would have repented and been sparred; also speaking of how it will be worse on the day of judgment for those who refused those whom He sent out and did not welcome them then it was for Sodom.

The lesson almost nobody takes away from the story of Sodom in Genesis is what the Scripture is actually talking about. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that in modern western society we aren't able to recognize what hospitality meant as a value and virtue in biblical times. As such, the actual biblical moral ends up being mocked, because it is incredibly difficult for a modern westerner to understand how hospitality could be so important to God. Even though hospitality is written throughout the Scriptures. That intrinsic to righteousness is how we welcome the stranger, how we treat others, how we think about and shape our behavior in relation to our neighbor. It's so important to God that Jesus Christ Himself says it is part of the Greatest Commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." A commandment that is fundamentally misunderstood when we ignore the context in which it was originally given in Leviticus, and how Jesus uses it in the Gospel.

Our modern way is worse than Sodom, and it has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with the treatment of the vulnerable, the treatment of strangers, the treatment of the poor, the hungry, the naked, the widow, the orphan, and all vulnerable people. Such is so important to God that when Jesus, in Matthew 25, talks about the Day of Judgment, this is the sole metric that is used for judgment, "I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, I was sick and in prison, I was a stranger"--how these people are treated is how we will be judged. The Day of Judgment scenario that Jesus gives doesn't mention anything else, but entirely hangs upon how we treat/mis-treat the vulnerable.

That should instill us with holy fear. But if there's something I've noticed, is that at least in American Christianity there is no sense of holy fear. There is no sense of just how seriously things like judgment is applied to people of faith. To the point that I see some Christians actually argue that the Christian will not face judgment at all. Yet, Jesus in Matthew 7 is very clear: Judgment applies to the people of faith, St. Peter even says "judgment comes first to the household of God".

That shouldn't be shocking, when the Bible talks about judgment, most of the time judgment language is used not to speak about people outside the covenant of faith, but people inside the covenant of faith. The strongest language of judgment is applied to Israel throughout the Old Testament, and that continues in the New Testament as well, in regard to the Church.

I should be far less worried about how my unbelieving neighbor will be judged, and far more concerned with how I'll be judged. I know the commandments and precepts of God--so when I violate them I am a worse transgressor of the Law than my neighbor who doesn't know them.

Christianity has never been, "Believe the right things so you can avoid hell and go to heaven". If we think that simply believing the right things is what Scripture means when it talks about being justified through our faith, we have fundamentally missed the whole point. And we have fundamentally rejected Grace and put trust in our own works to save us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Well, generally, we don't form rape mobs to intimidate visitors. So there is that. But there certainly is overlap. We see the way in which God rebuked Jerusalem through the Prophet Ezekiel, by speaking of Sodom's guilt of how the vulnerable were mistreated--a charge being levied against Jerusalem. It's also language Jesus invokes, going so far as to say "Woe to you Chorazin! Woe to you Bethsaida!" that had the wonders and things done in them were done in Sodom, Sodom would have repented and been sparred; also speaking of how it will be worse on the day of judgment for those who refused those whom He sent out and did not welcome them then it was for Sodom.

The lesson almost nobody takes away from the story of Sodom in Genesis is what the Scripture is actually talking about. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that in modern western society we aren't able to recognize what hospitality meant as a value and virtue in biblical times. As such, the actual biblical moral ends up being mocked, because it is incredibly difficult for a modern westerner to understand how hospitality could be so important to God. Even though hospitality is written throughout the Scriptures. That intrinsic to righteousness is how we welcome the stranger, how we treat others, how we think about and shape our behavior in relation to our neighbor. It's so important to God that Jesus Christ Himself says it is part of the Greatest Commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." A commandment that is fundamentally misunderstood when we ignore the context in which it was originally given in Leviticus, and how Jesus uses it in the Gospel.

Our modern way is worse than Sodom, and it has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with the treatment of the vulnerable, the treatment of strangers, the treatment of the poor, the hungry, the naked, the widow, the orphan, and all vulnerable people. Such is so important to God that when Jesus, in Matthew 25, talks about the Day of Judgment, this is the sole metric that is used for judgment, "I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, I was sick and in prison, I was a stranger"--how these people are treated is how we will be judged. The Day of Judgment scenario that Jesus gives doesn't mention anything else, but entirely hangs upon how we treat/mis-treat the vulnerable.

That should instill us with holy fear. But if there's something I've noticed, is that at least in American Christianity there is no sense of holy fear. There is no sense of just how seriously things like judgment is applied to people of faith. To the point that I see some Christians actually argue that the Christian will not face judgment at all. Yet, Jesus in Matthew 7 is very clear: Judgment applies to the people of faith, St. Peter even says "judgment comes first to the household of God".

That shouldn't be shocking, when the Bible talks about judgment, most of the time judgment language is used not to speak about people outside the covenant of faith, but people inside the covenant of faith. The strongest language of judgment is applied to Israel throughout the Old Testament, and that continues in the New Testament as well, in regard to the Church.

I should be far less worried about how my unbelieving neighbor will be judged, and far more concerned with how I'll be judged. I know the commandments and precepts of God--so when I violate them I am a worse transgressor of the Law than my neighbor who doesn't know them.

Christianity has never been, "Believe the right things so you can avoid hell and go to heaven". If we think that simply believing the right things is what Scripture means when it talks about being justified through our faith, we have fundamentally missed the whole point. And we have fundamentally rejected Grace and put trust in our own works to save us.

-CryptoLutheran
I tend to go with what the scripture says.
This is not a lack of "hospitality." And God did not burn the city because they were not being nice to strangers... it was because they tried to rape those strangers and those who wanted to protect them.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Jude 1:7 KJV
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:6-8 KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds...

That is enough for me!
 
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Hans Blaster

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I never said it was and in fact said its like a religious belief. So in that sense they are not atheist as far as metaphysical beliefs about human nature and nature itself and based on this how we should order society as with DEI policies which form the catechism and identity acting as the new dualism aspect of beyond the body and phsycial world.
Weird metaphysical beliefs do not constitute a form of theism. Being "woke" or not doesn't change anyone's religious status.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Removing Christianity from the public square is no small thing. Its been a long haul through the institutions over many decades. But we have seen its rapid rise in the last 20 odd years. So the foundational work was already being done and waiting in the fringes to take over.

It's hard work, but it's worth it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I tend to go with what the scripture says.
This is not a lack of "hospitality." And God did not burn the city because they were not being nice to strangers... it was because they tried to rape those strangers and those who wanted to protect them.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Jude 1:7 KJV
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:6-8 KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds...

That is enough for me!

What do the Scriptures say was the sin of Sodom? No really, look it up, what does it actually say.

You avoided actually providing Scripture which talks about this. Perhaps you are unaware, in which case, go ahead, look it up.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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When I look at words for movements like "Marxism" and "Fascism" and "Feminism" that have been defined by the people who created them, I prefer to use the definitions of the people who created them. For instance, when I want to know what Fascism is, I look at the seminal writings of the philosophers and politicians who called themselves Fascist. Nobody else's definition really matters.

Feminism, according to the seminal writings of its own theorists, is misandrist, just as by the seminal writings of its own theorists, Marxism is anti-capitalist.

Can you provide examples of this?

Most of my life I've identified as a feminist. Regardless of which side of the political aisle I'm on. I was a feminist because I believed in the full equity and equality of women in every aspect of society.

I will admit, there were some quirks to my upbringing. I spent half of my pre-adult life in a Pentecostal church which, having been founded by a woman (Aimee Semple McPherson), had a tradition going back to its establishment in the 1920's that had women in active ministry--and, of course, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, was hardly a "liberal" denomination. That means I grew up in a conservative environment where women were regularly in posistions of authority.

I also grew up with a very strong mother. Now, my relationship with my mom is a subject I don't want to get into here, but I will say that because my mom was a very strong person. It never occurred to me growing up that men and women should have fundamentally different social roles.

So when I think of feminism, when I look at feminist sources which I've personally experienced, the consistent message is that there should be real, substantial, social equity between men and women.

Now, speaking of personal experience again, I've never been comfortable with certain ideas of "masculinity". I had a father who exemplified sacrifice, kindness, compassion. The concept of masculinity was never "macho", the archetype of masculinity that I grew up believing in, and sought to cultivate, came in the example of Jesus, who in weakness became the Victim of the Cross; the examples I saw were in Scripture: of men who demonstrated vulnerability. King David, for example, was an example because of his contrition, his weakness, his vulnerability--it's Psalm 51, "Have mercy on me, O God".

I've always been very stubborn about this too. In high school, and throughout my 20's, I regularly had my sexuality--my masculinity--criticized even by close friends. I had a friend, just a couple years ago, tell me that I have always been "weird". Why? Because I never viewed women as prey, or as prizes to be won. I've never fit into standard models of masculinity, I've never accepted the American way of gender dichotomy.

I've always believed I should look to something else, emulate something else, pursue something else: Jesus Christ. And so, I've always identified as a feminist, as an advocate for women's rights, women's autonomy, and have been critical of what I see as stupid patriarchal nonsense that helps nobody and hurts everyone. Because I've always wanted to pursue something Christocentric, something biblical.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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stevevw

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You state as a fact the issue that is in contention. You cannot demonstrate the truth of this assertion and repeating it is not helpful.
Of course we can. You just have to look at how society has become more individualistiv and narscistic.

A recent study published in Psychological Science suggests that people across the globe are becoming more individualistic over time. Individualism, as opposed to collectivism, relates to how independent and self-reliant (and self-centered) people are. Collectivistic people (and societies) tend to be more communal and family-oriented, and to work together instead of independently. Couple this with research that shows a rise in narcissism, and this suggests that people are becoming more isolated and focused on themselves, rather than others.

Social media, while it connects us to others, may actually lead to greater self-centeredness as people strive to make their “presence” known. Much of social media is “all about me.” Overly doting “helicopter parents” may also be creating greater narcissism in children. Finally, society, with its emphasis on celebrity, appearance, and narcissistic role models and leaders, may be playing a part in the rise in self-centeredness. (See more on narcissism here.)
 
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stevevw

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You are just rambling now. I can't make sense of any of this.
Therefore you lack understanding of human thinking and behaviour as to what role beliefs play and how they are formulated. Perhaps some info on this may help. I think the following link sums up the current state of affairs regarding Woke or the new secular religion or identity politics and PC whatever you want to call it.

BUt its a reality and can be traced through academia into institutions and mainstream society and backs by the State through increasing laws, policies and funding for installing DEI programs which form the bible of Woksim.

The link is good as it explains the mechanisms behind how Woke is replacing Christianity and spiritual meaning as a metaphysical and moral belief that has filled the void left by God Christian beliefs.

Wokeness and the New Religious Establishment
For the woke, identity is the source of divinity. Transgender identity — in which one's inward gender identity is said to differ from one's bodily sex — offers a useful snapshot of woke metaphysics. Wokeness is grounded in a Gnostic understanding of the world, which distinguishes between appearances accessible to everyone and the reality perceptible only to a certain few. To join the community of those who recognize this ultimate reality, one must undergo a kind of "awakening" — or, in identity-politics parlance, "become woke."

Nature abhors a vacuum, as does the human soul. As Ross Douthat documents in his book Bad Religion, attempts to scrub religion from American public life have failed; alternative belief systems have rushed in to fill the void. The newest and perhaps most potent of these alternatives is wokeness, which is fast becoming the dominant faith of the elite in the political, corporate, and academic worlds — and, in turn, of American public life.

With the decline of the old Judeo-Christian consensus, the woke have sought to establish themselves in the spaces left open by the success of secularization. But as their faith coalesces and their successes build, they are beginning to grow out of those spaces. It seems that at the very moment of its overcoming, the struggle is struggling with itself.
Wokeness and the New Religious Establishment
 
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stevevw

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I already explained why "Western Christian Culture" is meaningless. And your use of "Woke" is likewise meaningless, because "Woke" doesn't have a clear definition either, certainly not the way you're using it. Woke, as it originated in the black community in America, to refer to recognizing and acknowledging systemic racial injustice certainly isn't the way you're using it. You're using "woke" to simply mean "liberal-progressive stuff which I don't like".

It's a nonsense phrase because you're using nonsense terms. It's all emotive without substance, it's feeling devoid of fact.

-CryptoLutheran
OK then don't call it Woke but something else. But whatever you call it its a real phenomena happening in society today. It was the Woke who brought up its reincarnation anyway with ideas they promoted like Bestock Woke, Woke in business, relationships everything. They used the term before anyone else. All that others are doing is turning the ideology back on itself.

We can clearly show how its ideological roots in academia of the pre 2000 and see its infltration into institutions, corporations, the State and mainstream society. The article I linked just previously in another post covers this pretty well. But if you want I can get more detailed ones explaining the evolution of Wokes new meaning and representation as a religion.
 
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