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8 states are planning to BAN the sale of gas-powered cars entirely - after Biden unveiled ambitious plans to phase them out by 2032

Desk trauma

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It's foolhardy to get ahead with such a plan without an understanding of the negative outcomes.
Things being made obsolete is a fact of life. Should we have stopped Netflix to save video rental stores?
 
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Bradskii

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“We choose to go to the Moon in this decade…not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too.”

If the USA doesn’t lead in the EV market we will fall behind and the fate of our nation will surely be in our adversaries’ hands.
I was thinking of the exact same quote. Where are those sort of leaders when we need them?
 
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weekEd

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Employ people? Jobs and industries are not magically created. Consider all of the mom and pop convenience stores that will be put of business. China controls the lithium and cobalt supplies, and China may sell those to American firms for exorbitant prices, or maybe they will put the batteries together in China. There will be a one-time effort in putting in charging stations, and in cold climates when they freeze up they will need maintenance.
ahhh yeah 7/11 would be hurting.
 
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Desk trauma

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I was thinking of the exact same quote. Where are those sort of leaders when we need them?
I keep hoping we would get one proposing a national nuclear power plan similar to France but after the failure of the “nuclear renaissance” no company is going to touch that for a generation or more.
 
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weekEd

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I keep hoping we would get one proposing a national nuclear power plan similar to France but after the failure of the “nuclear renaissance” no company is going to touch that for a generation or more.
seems like our choice is a golf course enthusiast and an attorney...
which one is better suited to promote...
 
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Bradskii

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I keep hoping we would get one proposing a national nuclear power plan similar to France but after the failure of the “nuclear renaissance” no company is going to touch that for a generation or more.
We have the same problem here. Where's fusion when we need it?
 
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Desk trauma

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We have the same problem here. Where's fusion when we need it?
A manhattan project style pursuit of that would be a great option as well but when building new nuclear capacity with existing technology results in things like the VC Summer failure and Vogtle boondoggle… eh, we’re doomed.
 
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weekEd

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No idea what you’re talking about.
there was a godfather's pizza CEO trying to get on the Republican ticket and Trump beat him out because he didn't pay immigrants for the work he did for him.
 
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Desk trauma

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there was a godfather's pizza CEO trying to get on the Republican ticket and Trump beat him out because he didn't pay immigrants for the work he did for him.
Herman Cain has been dead for almost four years.
 
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AlexB23

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I disagree. Punting the date ahead a few decades is what politicians and monied business interests have done for years to evade responsibility. The world simply doesn't have time to delay doing something about one of the major sources of greenhouse gasses.

Also, ten years is a realistic time frame. Keep in mind there are alternatives to owning an automobile altogether. Ten years is time for businesses and individuals to adjust. Besides electric cars, there are public transportation projects, bicycles (including electric bicycles), and increased walking that could be done. All those would be beneficial and reduce externalities like traffic deaths as a bonus. Continuing to promote a car-centric lifestyle in general is unjust and harms the most vulnerable people in society, children, the disabled, and the elderly, who are disproportionately pedestrians.
Well, we should switch to free public transportation. :) But for EVs, nothing can get done in 10 years, cos America is slow to change, and Musk is a jerkhole who makes EVs look bad. We can get more buses on the road in 10 years, but for electric cars, the technology is not yet mature enough. If we want to solve climate change, we must become like Europe. Europe's CO2 emissions peaked in the late 1970s.

Europe CO2 emissions [PDF]: https://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/trends-and-drivers-of-eu-ghg/download
 
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SimplyMe

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My point is that it is not well thoughtout, that it might do more damage than good.

And what are you basing this off of? From what I can tell, this is more your dislike for Biden rather than any actual data -- and the little data you do use is straight from petroleum PR groups play sheet.

If Joe thought he could make the case he could present it to the American people and the heads of industry and get feedback.

From what I can see, this is exactly what Biden did. Per your article, the EPA was going to introduce new regulations that would phase out new ICE cars by 2030. Biden actually pushed the EPA's date back. On top of that, if you weren't aware, new regulations have a "comment period" where the public and industry can weigh in on the proposed changes, which they had on the newly adopted rules.

A pilot program could be tried in one state. Laws could be passed.

Which state? What laws?

Yes Joe has advisors, he also had advisors when he pulled the military out of Afghanistan before the civilians. As to power grids, it's different than straight percentages. A power grid has a maximum capacity to handle peak hours. If you have too many people charging at the same time then that can cause a problem.

Which is obviously why, as pointed out, there is money in the infrastructure bill to help build out the nation's power grid. Yes, a power grid does have a "maximum capacity" -- but again, power companies often also set rates to encourage people to try and conserve electricity during the peak periods and use it instead at lower consumption periods. This works really well for EVs, which actually have software in them to get plugged in but not start charging, if you set it up, until power rates are cheaper (charge the car in the overnight hours when power usage is lowest). And everyone charging at the same time is not an issue overnight, when power usage is low, as even everyone charging at the same time does not use more power than the air conditioning units that run heavily in late afternoon and evening.

It is also worth pointing out, as others have, that ICE cars do not magically disappear in 2032 -- the vast majority of cars on the roads will likely remain ICE cars for much longer. We don't have to do all the ramping up by 2032, it will likely be 2040 before most cars on US roads are EVs.

So too China controls the minerals for the current batteries. And human rights issues are important.

This isn't actually true. My recollection is that the biggest lithium producer is Australia, with Chile number 2. While China is third, they are a distant third, with Australia and Chile producing 70% of the world's lithium. I might be forgetting one but I think it is similar with most minerals, where the biggest supplier of the mineral is not China. It's also worth noting that the Inflation Reduction Act also, when they set up the tax credit for EVs, requires the various components/minerals to come from free trade countries (not China) and, because of this, new mines starting up in the US and Canada to replace minerals currently sourced from countries with various issues, such as human rights.
 
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SimplyMe

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Well, we should switch to free public transportation. :) But for EVs, nothing can get done in 10 years, cos America is slow to change, and Musk is a jerkhole who makes EVs look bad. We can get more buses on the road in 10 years, but for electric cars, the technology is not yet mature enough. If we want to solve climate change, we must become like Europe. Europe's CO2 emissions peaked in the late 1970s.

Europe CO2 emissions [PDF]: https://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/trends-and-drivers-of-eu-ghg/download

There is a fascinating report out about the true cost of automobile usage, "Car harm: A global review of automobility's harm to people and the environment." It is rather amazing in just how many ways they show cars are bad for the world; including things like pollution from cars; crashes and even intentional violence; sedentary travel; consumption of time, space and resources; the cost of resource extraction; etc. One interesting thing is it points out there are 1.3 million deaths per year from car accidents, over 3,500 per day -- can you imagine how quickly airlines would be shutdown and for how long, if 3,500 died in a single day, or even a month, in plane crashes?

I'm for more public transportation in the US but politically it is largely a dead issue, though there at least are groups fighting to change that.
 
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AlexB23

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There is a fascinating report out about the true cost of automobile usage, "Car harm: A global review of automobility's harm to people and the environment." It is rather amazing in just how many ways they show cars are bad for the world; including things like pollution from cars; crashes and even intentional violence; sedentary travel; consumption of time, space and resources; the cost of resource extraction; etc. One interesting thing is it points out there are 1.3 million deaths per year from car accidents, over 3,500 per day -- can you imagine how quickly airlines would be shutdown and for how long, if 3,500 died in a single day, or even a month, in plane crashes?

I'm for more public transportation in the US but politically it is largely a dead issue, though there at least are groups fighting to change that.
We should do this instead. A vertical, self contained city.

Sky City 1000 | スカイシティー1000
 
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Valletta

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And what are you basing this off of? From what I can tell, this is more your dislike for Biden rather than any actual data -- and the little data you do use is straight from petroleum PR groups play sheet.



From what I can see, this is exactly what Biden did. Per your article, the EPA was going to introduce new regulations that would phase out new ICE cars by 2030. Biden actually pushed the EPA's date back. On top of that, if you weren't aware, new regulations have a "comment period" where the public and industry can weigh in on the proposed changes, which they had on the newly adopted rules.



Which state? What laws?



Which is obviously why, as pointed out, there is money in the infrastructure bill to help build out the nation's power grid. Yes, a power grid does have a "maximum capacity" -- but again, power companies often also set rates to encourage people to try and conserve electricity during the peak periods and use it instead at lower consumption periods. This works really well for EVs, which actually have software in them to get plugged in but not start charging, if you set it up, until power rates are cheaper (charge the car in the overnight hours when power usage is lowest). And everyone charging at the same time is not an issue overnight, when power usage is low, as even everyone charging at the same time does not use more power than the air conditioning units that run heavily in late afternoon and evening.

It is also worth pointing out, as others have, that ICE cars do not magically disappear in 2032 -- the vast majority of cars on the roads will likely remain ICE cars for much longer. We don't have to do all the ramping up by 2032, it will likely be 2040 before most cars on US roads are EVs.



This isn't actually true. My recollection is that the biggest lithium producer is Australia, with Chile number 2. While China is third, they are a distant third, with Australia and Chile producing 70% of the world's lithium. I might be forgetting one but I think it is similar with most minerals, where the biggest supplier of the mineral is not China. It's also worth noting that the Inflation Reduction Act also, when they set up the tax credit for EVs, requires the various components/minerals to come from free trade countries (not China) and, because of this, new mines starting up in the US and Canada to replace minerals currently sourced from countries with various issues, such as human rights.
Ah yes, for lithium China has over half of the world's refining capability but Australia mines the most lithium. China has purchased rights to vast amounts of cobalt:
Everyone charging their cars at night could change the dynamics so that peak overall electricity usage is during the night. And remember too that the majority of electrical power in this country is produced from fossil fuels. How much efficiency is lost by burning fossil fuels and then transporting electricity over the wires to be installed in batteries, and then the batteries lose charge when not in use (especially in cold climates?) Like I've said, there is more wear and tear on roads and tires. Why not consider the more and more efficient gas powered cars that we are producing? Perhaps hydrogen powered cars will be the future. There is no one clear top choice, and so the government needs to stay out of it.
 
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