VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[One God and Father of All]

The "rapture" verses in the Bible, once explained, show that those who are "raptured" are NOT the righteous: they are the wicked, and the Raptors are Satan and his flock.

Let's take a look:

Matthew 24:38	For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39	And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40	Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41	Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42	Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Now, supposing one does not know Greek, one should still be able to see that those taken away by the flood were not the righteous. One would much rather to have been left alive at the end of the flood than to have been taken away by it. So the context of "taken" is not very good.

However, the truth is that the word used for "took away" in Matthew 24:39 is not the same Greek word as is translated "shall be taken" in the next two verses. Ironically, the first one means "to raise, lift up, take away, remove"--all of which sounds wonderful in terms of the rapture teaching, despite the fact that those thus "raised/removed" went to their deaths in a watery grave. But the Greek word which follows and which is translated as "taken" here is sometimes translated as "received," such as in John 14:1-3 where Jesus says he will come and "receive" (take) his people to himself. It is ambiguous, having as much positive usage as negative. For example, a man "takes" a wife using this Greek verb; but Satan "took" Jesus to the temple mount to tempt him--the same verb.

With "paralambano" (receive/take) being ambiguous, we next look at the word "left" which is translated from the Greek "aphiemi." Aphiemi, in about a third of its 140+ occurrences in the New Testament, is translated as forgive. Other translations include leave, permit/allow, send (away), etc.

The forgiven ones are those which remain, which are left. We don't want to be taken! We want to be left!

But how can we know this for sure? Let's compare to Luke's account of this message.

Luke 17:34	I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35	Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36	Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37	And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The disciples wonder where the people are taken. They are not asking about where they are left, because they have just been told where these people are--so that question would already be answered: they are at the mill, in the field, or in bed. But where are they taken?

Jesus' answer to this question is that "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Throughout the Bible, eagles (like vultures), which are birds of prey, are said to feed on dead bodies. In fact, this even applies to birds in general--consider Deuteronomy 28:26. But raptors particularly are known to feed on carcasses (cf. Matthew 24:28). In Revelation 18:2 we see what these foul fowl represent.

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"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." (Revelation 18:2).​

​

Jesus is essentially telling the disciples that those who are taken are taken away by the devils. Even in English today no one wants to be "taken." To be taken in, taken for a ride, etc. are idiomatic expressions meaning to be deceived.

13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess 4

Those of the rapture are faithful ones. The dead faithful ones will be raised first. The living faithful will be next. They are all caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. And then will always be together with him.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Could it be that the letter is sent to a specific angel of the church in Philadelphia?
And that the “you” refers to that specific angel?

To the angel of the church seems to refer to a specific messenger, while the church seems to refer to all those in the church or body of Christ.

Could it be that the letter is sent to a specific angel of the church in Philadelphia?
And that the “you” refers to that specific angel?

To the angel of the church seems to refer to a specific messenger, while the church seems to refer to all those in the church or body of Christ.

Could it be that the letter is sent to a specific angel of the church in Philadelphia?
And that the “you” refers to that specific angel?

To the angel of the church seems to refer to a specific messenger, while the church seems to refer to all those in the church or body of Christ.

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

Could it be that the letter is sent to a specific angel of the church in Philadelphia?
And that the “you” refers to that specific angel?

To the angel of the church seems to refer to a specific messenger, while the church seems to refer to all those in the church or body of Christ.

Let’s go by what Rev 3:10 says.

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There are very important distinctions to make in the verse above: (1) “You” is about us. We are kept from the “hour of trial; (2) “The hour of trial that is coming on the whole world” is a future worldwide event: the Trib; (3) “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind after the pre-Trib rapture. How do I know there’s a pre-Trib rapture? Jesus said so, in His own way, in the verse above.

The most important distinction is we are removed from this planet because after we are removed, “those that dwell on the earth” are not us. They are only those who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

Jesus had previously spoken of the worldwide Trib in Matt 24:4-28. Was Jesus saying that about His disciples? Neither was He saying “hour of trial” in Rev 3:10 about the Church.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There are very important distinctions to make in the verse above: (1) “You” is about us. We are kept from the “hour of trial; (2) “The hour of trial that is coming on the whole world” is a future worldwide event: the Trib; (3) “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind after the pre-Trib rapture. How do I know there’s a pre-Trib rapture? Jesus said so.

The most important distinction is we are removed from this planet because after we are removed, “those that dwell on the earth” are not us. They are only those who is left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

Jesus had previously spoken of the Trib in Matt 24:4-28. Was Jesus saying that about His disciples? Neither was He saying “hour of trial” in Rev 3:10 about that Church.

Revelation refers to what is to happen on the day of the LORD. The rapture will have already occurred before revelation begins.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There are very important distinctions to make in the verse above: (1) “You” is about us. We are kept from the “hour of trial; (2) “The hour of trial that is coming on the whole world” is a future worldwide event: the Trib; (3) “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind after the pre-Trib rapture. How do I know there’s a pre-Trib rapture? Jesus said so, in His own way, in the verse above.

The most important distinction is we are removed from this planet because after we are removed, “those that dwell on the earth” are not us. They are only those who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

Jesus had previously spoken of the worldwide Trib in Matt 24:4-28. Was Jesus saying that about His disciples? Neither was He saying “hour of trial” in Rev 3:10 about the Church.

After the rapture, there will be a development of believers in Israel. Rev 3:10 refers to the churches who will exists in those days. During the 3.5 years of tribulation under Antichrist, many of the believers in those days will be killed.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation refers to what is to happen on the day of the LORD. The rapture will have already occurred before revelation begins.

Paul confirms in 1 Th 5:1-3 that the Day of the Lord begins and is, at least, the 7-year Trib. Other verses will say the 2A (2nd Advent) is part of the Day of the Lord. Other folks will say the Day of the Lord includes the Millennial Kingdom and the Great White Throne of Judgment.

The least we all should agree on is the Day of the Lord begins the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

After the rapture, there will be a development of believers in Israel. Rev 3:10 refers to the churches who will exists in those days. During the 3.5 years of tribulation under Antichrist, many of the believers in those days will be killed.

Rev 3:10 says Jesus will “keep us from the hour of trial.” That’s the worldwide 7-year Trib. We are pre-Trib raptured, accordingly. A close study of Rev 3:10 will prove there are two groups cited. Where it says “you” is we who are raptured to Heaven. The other group is described as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a very demeaning phrase signifying unbelievers, as in Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

During the Trib, a great multitude will come to Christ. This igreat multitude of new converts in the Trib are martyred in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. They are all resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. That great multitude is then seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17, a product of the greatest revival in the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

After the rapture, there will be a development of believers in Israel. Rev 3:10 refers to the churches who will exists in those days. During the 3.5 years of tribulation under Antichrist, many of the believers in those days will be killed.

You don’t understand Rev 3:10. There are two groups cited. “You” are whom are raptured before “the hour of trail” (the seven years of 21 wrathful judgments by God). The “hour of trial” is against “those who dwell on the earth.” Rev 11:10 will prove how demeaning that phrase is.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

You don’t understand Rev 3:10. There are two groups cited. “You” are whom are raptured before “the hour of trail” (the seven years of 21 wrathful judgments by God). The “hour of trial” is against “those who dwell on the earth.” Rev 11:10 will prove how demeaning that phrase is.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess 4

Those of the rapture are faithful ones. The dead faithful ones will be raised first. The living faithful will be next. They are all caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. And then will always be together with him.

You don’t understand Rev 3:10. There are two groups cited. “You” are whom are raptured before “the hour of trail” (the seven years of 21 wrathful judgments by God). The “hour of trial” is against “those who dwell on the earth.” Rev 11:10 will prove how demeaning that phrase is.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You don’t understand Rev 3:10. There are two groups cited. “You” are whom are raptured before “the hour of trail” (the seven years of 21 wrathful judgments by God). The “hour of trial” is against “those who dwell on the earth.” Rev 11:10 will prove how demeaning that phrase is.

How do you explain the resurrection of the faithful dead and the faithful living meeting Jesus in the air?

Keras won’t answer that question. He always runs for the hills when he’s faced with a question that exposes his fallacies.

 

[BibleLinguist]

Keras won’t answer that question. He always runs for the hills when he’s faced with a question that exposes his fallacies.

Jeffrey, your profile says you are a Christian. Is that correct? If so, please do not succumb to the influences of debaters, scoffers, and the like to belittle others. I believe Keras to be an honest and sincere student of the Word, even if I may not agree with all of his views. Our discussions here will be more profitable for all of us if we look for the best in others and, with open minds, consider what they share. If others teach fallacies, which certainly happens, let us hope they do so in ignorance, and do our best to help apprise them of the fact in a way that will not offend them and cause them to resist change. (I speak these things as much to myself as to you--for I would like to remember this, too.)

 

[BibleLinguist]

Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

You are correct. In fact, I believe that one reason God does not remove His people is that the unrighteous will be witness to the undeniable distinction between the righteous and the wicked at that point. Their character and deportment, as the righteous shine with the radiance and joy of having a close relationship with God whereas the emptiness of the wicked shows no true happiness, will be seen in stark contrast. The wicked will have to admit that the righteous know their God and are loved and protected by Him.

 

[keras]

Keras won’t answer that question. He always runs for the hills when he’s faced with a question that exposes his fallacies.

Psalm 121:1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

As for the dead and the living meeting in the air: that idea will never happen, as the dead await the GWT Judgment. Only the souls of the dead martyrs, killed during the Great Trib, will be restored back to life. Rev 20:4

Fallacies and guesswork are your beliefs; Jeffery.

 

[BibleLinguist]

Regarding the time of the resurrection: There are multiple resurrections indicated in the Bible.

1) Individual resurrections: Moses, the two by Elisha, Dorcas, Eutychus, and those done by Jesus (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc.);
2) The firstfruits: those raised with Christ at his resurrection and taken to heaven with him;
3) The special resurrection: a resurrection shortly preceding Christ's coming to allow those raised to witness the coming, especially those who crucified Christ and to whom he promised they would see him coming in the clouds;
4) The resurrection of the saints: the righteous who are raised at the sounding of the trumpet when Jesus comes;
5) The resurrection of the wicked: at the close of the millennium in heaven when the wicked are to be judged.

Most talk of "the resurrection" is focused on one of the last two general resurrections; but these are not the only ones.

 

[Logicalpaladin]

What Jesus said was specific and irrefutable: No one goes to heaven.....
This truth is confirmed by many other scriptures; John 7:34, John 8:21-213, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10, +

This is correct, then we go with Him to where He will be; that is in Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:4
This will be a transportation, between 2 earthy locations. As what happened to Philip; Acts 8:39

Is Gods Throne not in Heaven?​

​

The Great Multitude in White Robes​

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their facesbefore the throne and worshiped God,12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes

 

[keras]

Is Gods Throne not in Heaven?

Gods Throne and heaven are Spiritual concepts. They can be anywhere and everywhere.
They can be seen from the earth as Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen did; Acts 7:56

Revelation 7:1-14 describes what happens after the Sixth Seal; the Lords faithful Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land.
Revelation 7:15-17 is a scene in Eternity, after the GWT Judgment. Proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear, Rev 21:4

 

[keras]

1) Individual resurrections: Moses, the two by Elisha, Dorcas, Eutychus, and those done by Jesus (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc.);

These were all simply a raising back to life and they died again.

2) The firstfruits: those raised with Christ at his resurrection and taken to heaven with him;

Guesswork and not what the Bible says at all.

3) The special resurrection: a resurrection shortly preceding Christ's coming to allow those raised to witness the coming, especially those who crucified Christ and to whom he promised they would see him coming in the clouds;

More unbiblical guesswork.

4) The resurrection of the saints: the righteous who are raised at the sounding of the trumpet when Jesus comes

The only people who Jesus will resurrect at His Return will be the martyrs killed during the 42 month period of world control by Satan. Rev 20:4
They too, are just brought back to life and can die again; but their second death does not lose their place in Eternity,

5) The resurrection of the wicked: at the close of the millennium in heaven when the wicked are to be judged.

Revelation 20:11-15 is quite clear; after the Millennium, ALL the dead will be raised to stand before God in Judgment. No one will receive immortality before then, before the Book of Life is opened.
Job, Lazarus, David and everyone who has ever lived waits for that final Day.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20:11-15 is quite clear; after the Millennium, ALL the dead will be raised to stand before God in Judgment. No one will receive immortality before then, before the Book of Life is opened.
Job, Lazarus, David and everyone who has ever lived waits for that final Day.

The rapture/resurrection event takes place before the Great Tribulation

Revelation 3:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

[Douggg]

Regarding the time of the resurrection: There are multiple resurrections indicated in the Bible.

1) Individual resurrections: Moses, the two by Elisha, Dorcas, Eutychus, and those done by Jesus (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc.);
2) The firstfruits: those raised with Christ at his resurrection and taken to heaven with him;
3) The special resurrection: a resurrection shortly preceding Christ's coming to allow those raised to witness the coming, especially those who crucified Christ and to whom he promised they would see him coming in the clouds;
4) The resurrection of the saints: the righteous who are raised at the sounding of the trumpet when Jesus comes;
5) The resurrection of the wicked: at the close of the millennium in heaven when the wicked are to be judged.

Most talk of "the resurrection" is focused on one of the last two general resurrections; but these are not the only ones.

Three mass resurrections.

1. the rapture/resurrection event.
2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4. Called the first resurrection relative to the millennium.
3. the resurrection of the rest of the dead, for the Great White Throne Judgment. The second resurrection relative to the millennium.

Of the individual resurrections, the main one that makes all of the other resurrections possible is the resurrection of Jesus.

1Corinthians15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

 

[Logicalpaladin]

Gods Throne and heaven are Spiritual concepts. They can be anywhere and everywhere.
They can be seen from the earth as Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen did; Acts 7:56

Revelation 7:1-14 describes what happens after the Sixth Seal; the Lords faithful Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land.
Revelation 7:15-17 is a scene in Eternity, after the GWT Judgment. Proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear, Rev 21:4

Seen from the earth means not on earth. Can you give me a scripture that says Gods throne is not in Heaven?