VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Douggg]

The fig tree represents Judah. Proved by Jeremiah 24:1-10, the exiles of Judah are shown to be two types of peoples; good and rotten.
Plainly it is the rotten and Jesus rejecting ones who have returned to a small part of the holy Land.
Also the parable in Luke 13:6-8 is an obvious reference to the unfruitful Jews. Confirmed by Matthew 21:19

I am sure I had done this for you before; The Lord God says: Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob and show My compassion for all Israel and J shall be jealous for My holy Name. Ezekiel 39:23 REBible

It is God speaking and He confirms that He will restore all Israel; the 12 tribes and those peoples who are grafted in by faith. Which cuts out most of the apostate. Jewish people.
Jeremiah 12:14 tells us how it will be, All the current inhabitants thrown out and only those who follow the ways of My [Christian] people will be allowed to come back.

So what is the base year for the parable of the fig tree generation?

My view is 1967 when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem.

 

[BibleLinguist]

The fig tree represents Judah. Proved by Jeremiah 24:1-10, the exiles of Judah are shown to be two types of peoples; good and rotten.
Plainly it is the rotten and Jesus rejecting ones who have returned to a small part of the holy Land.
Also the parable in Luke 13:6-8 is an obvious reference to the unfruitful Jews. Confirmed by Matthew 21:19

I am sure I had done this for you before; The Lord God says: Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob and show My compassion for all Israel and J shall be jealous for My holy Name. Ezekiel 39:23 REBible

It is God speaking and He confirms that He will restore all Israel; the 12 tribes and those peoples who are grafted in by faith. Which cuts out most of the apostate. Jewish people.
Jeremiah 12:14 tells us how it will be, All the current inhabitants thrown out and only those who follow the ways of My [Christian] people will be allowed to come back.

I appreciate your first sentence there. I had not considered that connection before, but I think I quite agree, and can add some evidence to it. See below.

So what is the base year for the parable of the fig tree generation?

My view is 1967 when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem.

The fig tree generation, if applied to Judah, began in AD 31 with their crucifixion of the Messiah. Notice Jeremiah 17:1 which says the sin of Judah is written with "a pen of iron." Who writes with a pen of iron? Yet their sin is written with nails.

See Ezekiel 4:4-6 for a contrast between the sin of Israel and that of Judah. Then note that the entire chapter revolves around the besiegement of Jerusalem, ending in its destruction. This happened twice, once for Israel, during Nebuchadnezzar's third campaign against Jerusalem, and once for Judah, in AD 70. In each of these events, the Temple was destroyed.

For more clarity on Israel's sin, look for the repeated statements throughout the chronicles of Israel regarding their kings causing all Israel to sin, following the sin of Jeroboam, son of Nebat. Israel sinned by rejecting the worship of the true God, and putting golden calves in His place. Judah sinned by murdering the Son of God. Ezekiel lay on his left side 390 days for the sin of Israel, representing 390 years from the sin to its punishment, whereas Judah's sin, being far more egregious, was recompensed only 40 years afterward, represented by Ezekiel lying on his right side, the side of greater significance.

 

[keras]

So what is the base year for the parable of the fig tree generation?

My view is 1967 when the Jews regained control of Jerusalem.

I hold to 1948. That means the endtime events must commence before 2028. So there is still 4 years to go before that is wrong.
I remain fully confident of the Day of the Lords wrath coming before then. Seems mighty likely to me and to the worlds current situation.

 

[Douggg]

I hold to 1948. That means the endtime events must commence before 2028. So there is still 4 years to go before that is wrong.
I remain fully confident of the Day of the Lords wrath coming before then. Seems mighty likely to me and to the worlds current situation.

keras, not the beginning of end time events, but the ending with Jesus's return.... when all the things Jesus had talked about will be fulfilled. Which included His return.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
...
So, if we take 1948 +80 years = 2028 as the year that Jesus must return no later than..... the 7 year 70th week should have started before the end of 2021. But it did not.

So, 1948, is not the base year.

But if Jerusalem is the fig tree, and the Jews regaining possession of Jerusalem in 1967, then...

1967 + 70 years =2037 as the year that Jesus must return no later than.... the 7 year 70th week should begin not later than the end of 2030. So that is where we are at right now. Jerusalem as the fig tree and a 70 year generation.

 

[BibleLinguist]

I hold to 1948. That means the endtime events must commence before 2028. So there is still 4 years to go before that is wrong.
I remain fully confident of the Day of the Lords wrath coming before then. Seems mighty likely to me and to the worlds current situation.

While I fully agree that the world's current situation is quite deplorable, and we may expect Christ's coming soon, there is simply no Bible prophecy for end-time events that will give us times for those events. Revelation 10:5-6 indicates that prophetic times are ended, and "time" will be no more. Actual time never stops, so we know this must refer to time-based prophecies and tests. The verses before and after give the context--that of end-time events. If the "time" part of those events will not be part of their message, it follows that we cannot know it.

And this agrees with Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24 where no one knows the day, nor hour, not even the angels in heaven will know. Mark 13:32 expands the statement to include Jesus himself who will not know.

If Jesus does not know, how will we?

 

[Douggg]

If Jesus does not know, how will we?

SDA made that mistake of trying to predict the year of Jesus's return as 1844, which became known as the "the great disappointment". I see that you are SDA.

Keras and I are just looking at the closeness of Jesus's return - going by the parable of the fig tree generation. Neither of us know the year that Jesus will return.... like EG White predicted.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel lay on his left side 390 days for the sin of Israel, representing 390 years from the sin to its punishment, whereas Judah's sin, being far more egregious, was recompensed only 40 years afterward, represented by Ezekiel lying on his right side, the side of greater significance.

In Ezekiel 4:4-6, we are given the number of years that God decreed for the exile of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. 390 years for Israel and 40 for Judah, but then in Leviticus 26:18, it states if they still fail to keep the Commandments, the Lord will increase the punishments, firstly for Israel by seven times. Then in verse 21, also increase Israel’s calamities by seven times. [civil wars, black death, etc]

For Judah – Leviticus 26:23-45 says that they will receive seven times seven extra punishment and exile. This passage describes quite well the history and current status of the Jewish people.
40 X 7 X 7 = 1960, from the Roman conquest in 70 CE + 1960 years = 2030 for the Return of Judah and King Jesus. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Now, if we multiply 390 X 7 = 2730 years
The Assyrian conquest of the House of Israel, the 10 Northern tribes; was circa 721 BC, but the last of the people exiled was years later, as the Assyrian Kings changed and it took time for the mass removal. Probably not finished until about 708 BC,
2024 + 708 - 2 for the years being counted at their commencement = 2730 Our exile is almost over!
And the end times events are about to commence!

 

[BibleLinguist]

In Ezekiel 4:4-6, we are given the number of years that God decreed for the exile of the House of Israel and the House of Judah. 390 years for Israel and 40 for Judah, but then in Leviticus 26:18, it states if they still fail to keep the Commandments, the Lord will increase the punishments, firstly for Israel by seven times. Then in verse 21, also increase Israel’s calamities by seven times. [civil wars, black death, etc]

For Judah – Leviticus 26:23-45 says that they will receive seven times seven extra punishment and exile. This passage describes quite well the history and current status of the Jewish people.
40 X 7 X 7 = 1960, from the Roman conquest in 70 CE + 1960 years = 2030 for the Return of Judah and King Jesus. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Now, if we multiply 390 X 7 = 2730 years
The Assyrian conquest of the House of Israel, the 10 Northern tribes; was circa 721 BC, but the last of the people exiled was years later, as the Assyrian Kings changed and it took time for the mass removal. Probably not finished until about 708 BC,
2024 + 708 - 2 for the years being counted at their commencement = 2730 Our exile is almost over!
And the end times events are about to commence!

For some perspective, if there were a time to predict, even then we cannot know when Jesus will come, because he said he would cut the time short in righteousness. All efforts to predict the time of Jesus' coming are destined to fail.

 

[BibleLinguist]

SDA made that mistake of trying to predict the year of Jesus's return as 1844, which became known as the "the great disappointment". I see that you are SDA.

Keras and I are just looking at the closeness of Jesus's return - going by the parable of the fig tree generation. Neither of us know the year that Jesus will return.... like EG White predicted.

Your final sentence was ambiguous to me, so I'm not sure whether I should agree or disagree. To clarify, Ellen White never predicted when Jesus would come: the early predictions were made by William Miller. But Ellen White certainly did tell us that we will not know the definite time of Jesus' coming--no predictions are to be made (you might have been saying this, in which case I would agree).

Also for clarity, it was not Seventh-day Adventists who made the mistake of predicting Jesus would come in 1844. It was a movement of believers in Christ's soon return which had come from all of the major churches of the day, and was called the advent movement or the advent people. Many of these were so disenchanted with the failed predictions that they did not continue in the movement following the passing of the time. Some continued to study. More than one group exists today which came from that study. Seventh-day Adventists officially organized in 1863, nearly 20 years after that disappointment.

 

[Douggg]

Your final sentence was ambiguous to me, so I'm not sure whether I should agree or disagree. To clarify, Ellen White never predicted when Jesus would come: the early predictions were made by William Miller. But Ellen White certainly did tell us that we will not know the definite time of Jesus' coming--no predictions are to be made (you might have been saying this, in which case I would agree).

Also for clarity, it was not Seventh-day Adventists who made the mistake of predicting Jesus would come in 1844. It was a movement of believers in Christ's soon return which had come from all of the major churches of the day, and was called the advent movement or the advent people. Many of these were so disenchanted with the failed predictions that they did not continue in the movement following the passing of the time. Some continued to study. More than one group exists today which came from that study. Seventh-day Adventists officially organized in 1863, nearly 20 years after that disappointment.

Who came up with the investigative judgement doctrine of SDA ? Did it not begin with the Great Disappointment of 1844 ?

 

[BibleLinguist]

Who came up with the investigative judgement doctrine of SDA ? Did it not begin with the Great Disappointment of 1844 ?

I have been taught that this understanding was reached a short time after the Disappointment. The believers of that time were obviously seeking answers, and needed to know the true meaning of what they had been studying. Those who did not leave the movement understood that the times they had studied must have their proper place, for they had carefully worked out those times from the Bible prophecies. But they seemed unable to grasp the true meaning with respect to the event to take place. They had thought that the cleansing of the sanctuary, referenced in Daniel 8:14, must refer to the cleansing of the whole earth--but it was on this point that they had been mistaken. Thinking the earth would be cleansed, the logical conclusion had been that Christ was to come at that time. When he did not come, they were more than a little perplexed!

Not immediately finding answers, the disappointed faithful turned to prayer. Around this time, one man, named Hiram Edson, who had been a follower of William Miller and had studied carefully the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, went out walking through his cornfield. It was there that he had a revelation from God as to what had occurred on that day of October 22, 1844. With Wikipedia's characteristic (unbelieving) slant, you can read more of his story HERE.

This revelation set the people once again to studying the Bible, and together they began to understand the ministry of Christ in the Most Holy Place of the sanctuary of Heaven. I do not believe the doctrine is attributable to any one person, but it was a small group of people in the beginning who had come to study together.

These fervent Bible students discovered, along with their understanding of the judgment, that their own disappointment had been prophesied. Of course, if they had understood that prophecy ahead of time, it would have defeated the prophecy--but it was no small comfort to them to see that God had directed in these events, and was now opening their minds to understand them.

The Great Disappointment was predicted by Revelation 10:8-10. This is immediately after the angel swears that time will be no longer. From the end of the 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8:14, prophetic times based on definite time are no more to be given. Indefinite times we still have, such as knowing that Christ will soon come. But we cannot know the day nor the hour for his appearing.

 

[Douggg]

The Great Disappointment was predicted by Revelation 10:8-10. This is immediately after the angel swears that time will be no longer. From the end of the 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8:14, prophetic times based on definite time are no more to be given. Indefinite times we still have, such as knowing that Christ will soon come. But we cannot know the day nor the hour for his appearing.

I think part of the problem with SDA eschatology approach is the application of a day is a year. The day nor hour of Jesus's return no-one knows, I agree. We also don't know the year at this point. Once the 7 year 70th week begins by the confirmation of the covenant though - the year of Jesus Return can be known.

Regarding the 2300 days, the daily sacrifice has to start up again - for the little horn person to later stop it.

All of the end times events fall within the framework of the 7 years following the Gog/Magog event. Here is one of the charts I made of of how that 2300 days fits within Ezekiel 39.

 

[BibleLinguist]

I think part of the problem with SDA eschatology approach is the application of a day is a year.

The day = year formula is found twice in scripture, and the day = millennium formula is also found twice. God is a master mathematician, and He does everything in its time and order. I think, if anything, Adventists have come too far short in understanding the day-for-year application. It is quite meaningful to many things in scripture.

The two texts supporting the day-for-year principle are these: Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6.

The two texts supporting the day-for-millennium formula are these: Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.

It is a common misapplication that people make to place the last week of the 490-day prophecy of Daniel clear at the end of the world prior to Jesus' coming. There are multiple problems with this approach, including these: 1) it can minimize the events surrounding Jesus' ministry and death, and the early Christian church up to AD 34--the principal application of the prophecy; 2) it incorrectly applies the prophecy, which says the Messiah would be "cut off" in the midst of that week, not at its end; and 3) it presupposes that time prophecies will be able, in some fashion, to predict Christ's coming--contrary to our Savior's teaching that no one would know the day nor the hour. While he did not specify "year," I do not believe knowing the year is possible either.

It is quite possible that, even though the Gospels were recorded in Greek in order to reach the Gentile audience, Jesus was speaking Hebrew. In Hebrew, the word "yowm" can mean day, time, or year. This is why the day-for-year formula comes so naturally to a Hebrew speaker. And in this context, the "day" that we cannot know might also double as "year" in its significance.

While some prophecies have a dual application, and may fit more than one time within earth's great "week" of time, the application must be consistent with the details provided in the prophecy. In this case, the final week of the 70-week prophecy (490-day prophecy) indicates that the Messiah would be "cut off," a Biblical euphemism for being put to death, in the middle of that week. Contrary to this prophetic context, many attempt to apply the week to the end of time and with a coming Christ at the end, not the middle, of that week. It simply does not fit the text.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Delusions:
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me. Ezekiel 20:25

The prevalent error is in thinking that the Israel visible today is still the chosen of God. Wrong; they un-chose themselves, Matthew 27:25 and now it is every born again Christian, who belongs to the new nation of God's people. Matthew 21:43

With the rapture cult, the initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven. The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state, in our earthly situation.

Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation.

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth. The reality is, we experience His glorious salvation when we enter in to the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the Cross. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24

And if the Lord does not save them, just as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 2 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:10 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

Jesus said: take care that you be not deceived..... Seems that many have been rather careless!

Keras, you’re missing the context of the verses you cite. You’re quoting verses that pertain to the Trib (Rev 6:9-11) or times long ago (Acts 20:21).

Rev 3:10 means we will not go through the Trib. Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

“You” is about us. “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

The following is definitive proof of the pre-Trib rapture. Disprove the following, with real proof; not silly comments that don’t disprove anything:

God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere.

Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

1 Th 1:10 (NKJV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1.

 

[keras]

What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1.

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

 

[One God and Father of All]

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

How do you explain the resurrection of the faithful dead and the faithful living meeting Jesus in the air?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You make scriptures say what you want them to say.
Jesus will rescue His faithful people from the wrath of God, by protecting them, NOT removal. That He can do this, is demonstrated by the 3 men in the furnace and in verses like Isaiah 43:2

The idea of a rapture removal is not Biblical. plus being illogical and not even common sense.

What specifically is made up in this?

Rev 3:10 means we will not go through the Trib. Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

“You” is about us. “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[One God and Father of All]

What specifically is made up in this?

Rev 3:10 means we will not go through the Trib. Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

“You” is about us. “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

Could it be that the letter is sent to a specific angel of the church in Philadelphia?
And that the “you” refers to that specific angel?

To the angel of the church seems to refer to a specific messenger, while the church seems to refer to all those in the church or body of Christ.

 

[BibleLinguist]

“You” is about us. “Those that dwell on the earth” are those that will be Ieft behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

The "rapture" verses in the Bible, once explained, show that those who are "raptured" are NOT the righteous: they are the wicked, and the Raptors are Satan and his flock.

Let's take a look:

Matthew 24:38	For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39	And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40	Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41	Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42	Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Now, supposing one does not know Greek, one should still be able to see that those taken away by the flood were not the righteous. One would much rather to have been left alive at the end of the flood than to have been taken away by it. So the context of "taken" is not very good.

However, the truth is that the word used for "took away" in Matthew 24:39 is not the same Greek word as is translated "shall be taken" in the next two verses. Ironically, the first one means "to raise, lift up, take away, remove"--all of which sounds wonderful in terms of the rapture teaching, despite the fact that those thus "raised/removed" went to their deaths in a watery grave. But the Greek word which follows and which is translated as "taken" here is sometimes translated as "received," such as in John 14:1-3 where Jesus says he will come and "receive" (take) his people to himself. It is ambiguous, having as much positive usage as negative. For example, a man "takes" a wife using this Greek verb; but Satan "took" Jesus to the temple mount to tempt him--the same verb.

With "paralambano" (receive/take) being ambiguous, we next look at the word "left" which is translated from the Greek "aphiemi." Aphiemi, in about a third of its 140+ occurrences in the New Testament, is translated as forgive. Other translations include leave, permit/allow, send (away), etc.

The forgiven ones are those which remain, which are left. We don't want to be taken! We want to be left!

But how can we know this for sure? Let's compare to Luke's account of this message.

Luke 17:34	I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35	Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36	Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37	And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The disciples wonder where the people are taken. They are not asking about where they are left, because they have just been told where these people are--so that question would already be answered: they are at the mill, in the field, or in bed. But where are they taken?

Jesus' answer to this question is that "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Throughout the Bible, eagles (like vultures), which are birds of prey, are said to feed on dead bodies. In fact, this even applies to birds in general--consider Deuteronomy 28:26. But raptors particularly are known to feed on carcasses (cf. Matthew 24:28). In Revelation 18:2 we see what these foul fowl represent.

​

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." (Revelation 18:2).​

​

Jesus is essentially telling the disciples that those who are taken are taken away by the devils. Even in English today no one wants to be "taken." To be taken in, taken for a ride, etc. are idiomatic expressions meaning to be deceived.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I just made a thread for rapture timing poll..

Thanks!