VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

God’s Holy People in the Last Days:
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2

Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.

The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.

The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31

These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.
That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.

What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.

Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!

For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!
There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

God’s Holy People in the Last Days:
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2

Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.

The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.

The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31

These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.
That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.

What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.

Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!

For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!
There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]

You are citing verses that pertain to the Trib or MK. Rev 3:10 alone proves the pre-Trib rapture, and so does 1 Th 1:10 along with Ezek 14:21 and Rev 6:4. Your denial does not hold any proof.

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

 

[keras]

You are citing verses that pertain to the Trib or MK. Rev 3:10 alone proves the pre-Trib rapture, and so does 1 Th 1:10 along with Ezek 14:21 and Rev 6:4. Your denial does not hold any proof.

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

Please show, in any of the scriptures you cite; where do they say the Lord will rapture His people to heaven.

The Lord will mightily reward those who overcome false teachings, but those who teach wrong doctrines will face a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Please show, in any of the scriptures you cite; where do they say the Lord will rapture His people to heaven.

The Lord will mightily reward those who overcome false teachings, but those who teach wrong doctrines will face a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

Apostasia has five definitions. The top two are (1) defection; revolt; (2) departure; disappearance.

The early English Bibles got it right, as in 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Per the second definition of apostasia, we are raptured in 2 Th 2:3, then the Trib starts.

Paul also wrote 1 Th 1:10 (GNV): And to look for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivereth us from that wrath to come.

 

[John G.]

Αποστασία is a Greek word. It means "betrayal", "apostacy". It is a very negative word. It does not mean "simple departure".

 

[keras]

Apostasia has five definitions. The top two are (1) defection; revolt; (2) departure; disappearance.

The early English Bibles got it right, as in 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Per the second definition of apostasia, we are raptured in 2 Th 2:3, then the Trib starts.

Paul also wrote 1 Th 1:10 (GNV): And to look for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivereth us from that wrath to come.

I asked for you to show where any scripture says the Lord will rapture His people to heaven. You have failed to do that.
All the Bibles in modern translations, incl the KJV say: there will come a falling away....2 Thess 2:3 Meaning a loss of faith and trust in the Lord for His protection during the testing times to come. YOU demonstrate that lack of faith. YOUR belief in an escape is a falling away from the faith.

Get this: the idea of humans being raptured to heave to avoid any trials or tribulation, is quite impossible and totally unscriptural.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Αποστασία is a Greek word. It means "betrayal", "apostacy". It is a very negative word. It does not mean "simple departure".

Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon lists “departure; disappearance” for apostasia’s second definition.

You are quoting a different definition. Apostasia has five definitions. You can’t imply there’s only one definition.

 

[John G.]

It's a departure from a held position e.g. your religion, your patriotism - a betrayal.
Apostasia does not in any case mean "disappearance".
PS. I think I know the language of my ancestors better than someone named Liddell or Scott!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's a departure from a held position e.g. your religion, your patriotism - a betrayal.
Apostasia does not in any case mean "disappearance".
PS. I think I know the language of my ancestors better than someone named Liddell or Scott!

In Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon, the second definition of “apostasia” is departure; disappearance.

Therefore, departure means “physical departure.”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I asked for you to show where any scripture says the Lord will rapture His people to heaven. You have failed to do that.
All the Bibles in modern translations, incl the KJV say: there will come a falling away....2 Thess 2:3 Meaning a loss of faith and trust in the Lord for His protection during the testing times to come. YOU demonstrate that lack of faith. YOUR belief in an escape is a falling away from the faith.

Get this: the idea of humans being raptured to heave to avoid any trials or tribulation, is quite impossible and totally unscriptural.

John 14:3 does; you just won’t admit it. Answer this before reading that verse: Where is Jesus? Then, read that verse. For clarification, you may need to also answer: What is meant by “In my Father’s house?”

Rev 3:10 also means the same thing, but you won’t admit that to be true.

Rev 3:10 (NKJV): Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Whom are “you” in both instances?

What does “keep you from” mean?

What does “hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world” mean?

Who is specifically singled out in “those who dwell on the earth?”

Rev 11:10 (NKJV): And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

“Those that dwell on the earth” at that point (very late in the Trib), are hardcore unbelievers.

So, who truly are “those that dwell on the earth after Jesus keeps us from the Trib?

We are not on Earth during the Trib. We are raptured to Heaven.

 

[keras]

John 14:3 does; you just won’t admit it. Answer this before reading that verse: Where is Jesus? Then, read that verse. For clarification, you may need to also answer: What is meant by “In my Father’s house?” Keras replies: He is coming again; from heaven to the earth. The 'mansions' in My Fathers house, refers to the New Jerusalem.

Rev 3:10 also means the same thing, but you won’t admit that to be true. I cannot admit to anything that simply isn't there.

Rev 3:10 (NKJV): Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. You dwell on earth; you will be tested. 1 Peter 4:12

Whom are “you” in both instances? On earth, the place we were made to live in.

What does “keep you from” mean? Protection; shelter, help and guide, just as Psalms 23 and many other scriptures say the Lord does for us.

What does “hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world” mean? The terrible world changer of the Sixth Seal.

Who is specifically singled out in “those who dwell on the earth?” No one. ALL people are included. Why should anyone be removed? We all must go thru this test of our faith and those who stand firm in their faith and trust in the Lord, will receive His rewards.

 

[keras]

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

Delusions:
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me. Ezekiel 20:25

The prevalent error is in thinking that the Israel visible today is still the chosen of God. Wrong; they un-chose themselves, Matthew 27:25 and now it is every born again Christian, who belongs to the new nation of God's people. Matthew 21:43

With the rapture cult, the initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven. The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state, in our earthly situation.

Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation.

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth. The reality is, we experience His glorious salvation when we enter in to the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the Cross. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24

And if the Lord does not save them, just as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 2 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:10 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

Jesus said: take care that you be not deceived..... Seems that many have been rather careless!

 

[Douggg]

.

keras, I am still waiting for you to post the entire verse of Ezekiel 38:8 from the 1989 REB bible you use.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 38:8 After a long time you will be summoned, in a time to come; you will invade a land restored from ruin, whose people are gathered from many nations into the lands of Israel, that were long in desolation. REBible

This scripture does not fit with the Jewish State of Israel. As Eze 38:11-12 says they will be undefended, wealthy and prosperous.
It does fit with the new nation of Beulah, of all the Christian peoples.

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 38:8 After a long time you will be summoned, in a time to come; you will invade a land restored from ruin, whose people are gathered from many nations into the lands of Israel, that were long in desolation. REBible

This scripture does not fit with the Jewish State of Israel. As Eze 38:11-12 says they will be undefended, wealthy and prosperous.
It does fit with the new nation of Beulah, of all the Christian peoples.

Thanks for providing the verse. At the other forum, if you recall, we were of different opinion that verse referred to the current Israel over there or not. You say no, I say yes.

The kjv for Ezekiel 38:8 is....

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

The 1989 REB is...

8 After a long time you will be summoned, in a time to come; you will invade a land restored from ruin, whose people are gathered from many nations into the lands of Israel, that were long in desolation.

I had cited brought back from the sword is referring to Luke 21:24....when the Jews went into captivity into the nations for 2000 years, until 1948, Israel a nation again back in the land, and 1967, the Jews back in possession of Jerusalem - the basis year for the parable of the fig tree generation.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

keras, what is your view of the basis for the parable of the fig tree generation ?

And could you please provide a copy of what the 1989 REB has for Ezekiel 39:23, which it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text recollecting back over 2000 years prior in His dealings with the Jews.

kjv....

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

 

[keras]

we were of different opinion that verse referred to the current Israel over there or not. You say no, I say yes.

The obvious point of difference from the current Israel is how the new nation of Beulah will be undefended and they trust in the Lord for their protection. Jewish Israel has a powerful military and they basically ignore God.

keras, what is your view of the basis for the parable of the fig tree generation ?

Matthew 24:32-33 proves that we are now in the final generation before Jesus Returns.

Why must you rattle on about Jesus speaking in the Bible. It is ALL the Word of God and Jesus.

It really is time you gave up some of your fanciful ideas, like the 'anytime rapture'. Just makes you look silly.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:32-33 proves that we are now in the final generation before Jesus Returns.

What does the fig tree represent in that parable ? And your basis for that representation.

Why must you rattle on about Jesus speaking in the Bible. It is ALL the Word of God and Jesus.

Could you please provide a copy of what the 1989 REB has for Ezekiel 39:23.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is a great pity that there is no poll associated with this thread. A poll would provide at least an indication of the support for this belief among folks here at CF.

 

[Douggg]

It is a great pity that there is no poll associated with this thread. A poll would provide at least an indication of the support for this belief among folks here at CF.

I just made a thread for rapture timing poll..

 

[keras]

What does the fig tree represent in that parable ? And your basis for that representation.


Could you please provide a copy of what the 1989 REB has for Ezekiel 39:23.

The fig tree represents Judah. Proved by Jeremiah 24:1-10, the exiles of Judah are shown to be two types of peoples; good and rotten.
Plainly it is the rotten and Jesus rejecting ones who have returned to a small part of the holy Land.
Also the parable in Luke 13:6-8 is an obvious reference to the unfruitful Jews. Confirmed by Matthew 21:19

I am sure I had done this for you before; The Lord God says: Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob and show My compassion for all Israel and J shall be jealous for My holy Name. Ezekiel 39:23 REBible

It is God speaking and He confirms that He will restore all Israel; the 12 tribes and those peoples who are grafted in by faith. Which cuts out most of the apostate. Jewish people.
Jeremiah 12:14 tells us how it will be, All the current inhabitants thrown out and only those who follow the ways of My [Christian] people will be allowed to come back.