Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[oikonomia]

Would anyone like to pick up on the eight points raised in post #158?

Our faces are not at stake. The truth is what we want.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Face saving braggadocio is all I see from sovreigngrace anymore.

The reader can judge for themselves. It is there for all to see. You make the wild claims, but you cannot carry through with giving us hard Scripture to support those claims. That is because your position is not biblical. What is more, you have stepped around all the hard Scripture I have presented to prove Amil. You have to!

 

[oikonomia]

The reader can judge for themselves. It is there for all to see. You make the wild claims, but you cannot carry through with giving us hard Scripture to support those claims. That is because your position is not biblical. What is more, you have stepped around all the hard Scripture I have presented to prove Amil. You have to!

You started a public discussion which embarressingly you could not control the narrative of.
Nor would you dare address some problems with your A-mill theology.

A one way blog might be your better platform.

But I'll tell you what. You pray for me if you think I am that heretical.

You would be helped imo by reading a not too long book by D.M. Panton entitled "The Judgment Seat of Christ".
Here I found a PDF of it.

https://www.seekersofchrist.org/Rewards/Panton/TheJudgmentSeatofChrist.pdf

 

[sovereigngrace]

You started a public discussion which embarressingly you could not control the narrative of.
Nor would you dare address some problems with your A-mill theology.

A one way blog might be your better platform.

But I'll tell you what. You pray for me if you think I am that heretical.

You would be helped imo by reading a not too long book by D.M. Panton entitled "The Judgment Seat of Christ".
Here I found a PDF of it.

https://www.seekersofchrist.org/Rewards/Panton/TheJudgmentSeatofChrist.pdf

Show me the error of the Op. So far, you have skipped around it. Until you do, i will take your avoidance as an admission you have nothing.

 

[oikonomia]

Show me the error of the Op. So far, you have skipped around it. Until you do, i will take your avoidance as an admission you have nothing.

Answer the eight questions in Post # 158.
Repair you credibility that you are capable of taking your fair turn on the defense.

I will not be holding my breath because you're a "I Do the Asking Always. You Do the Answering Me Always" kind of guy.
Or " I Always Hold Your feet to the Fire. Never Ask Me to Take a Turn to be Cross Examined."

 

[sovereigngrace]

Answer the eight questions in Post # 158.
Repair you credibility that you are capable of taking your fair turn on the defense.

I will not be holding my breath because you're a "I Do the Asking Always. You Do the Answering Me Always" kind of guy.
Or " I Always Hold Your feet to the Fire. Never Ask Me to Take a Turn to be Cross Examined."

More avoidance. The Op remains unchallenged!

I'm not interested in your petty name-calling. Obviously, you've got nothing of biblical merit to bring to the table.

 

[WilliamLhk]

1. Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?

Passages in Isaiah and elsewhere tell of this.

 

[oikonomia]

Passages in Isaiah and elsewhere tell of this

Yes, and in a few of the Psalms I think, like Psalm 72.
Maybe he objects to me using the word paradise.

Anyway in Psalm 72 I think certain phrases could not refer to Solomon.

They will fear You as long as the sun endures / And as long as the moon endures / Throughout the generations. (v5)

In His days the righteous will flourish, / And there will be an abundance of peace / Until the moon is no more. (v.7)

I think Solomon here must be a pointer to the greater Solomon, Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Op Note

Passages in Isaiah and elsewhere tell of this.

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes, and in a few of the Psalms I think, like Psalm 72.
Maybe he objects to me using the word paradise.

Anyway in Psalm 72 I think certain phrases could not refer to Solomon.

They will fear You as long as the sun endures / And as long as the moon endures / Throughout the generations. (v5)

In His days the righteous will flourish, / And there will be an abundance of peace / Until the moon is no more. (v.7)

I think Solomon here must be a pointer to the greater Solomon, Christ.

Psalm 72 has absolutely nothing to do with some supposed future millennium. Again: you insert a "thousand years" into text after text that knows nothing about it. 2+2=4, not 22.

 

[oikonomia]

Psalm 72 has absolutely nothing to do with some supposed future millennium. Again: you insert a "thousand years" into text after text that knows nothing about it. 2+2=4, not 22.

"Thousands years" is mentioned six times in Revelation 20:1-7.
Which verse did I "insert" "thousand years" in ?

And that the millennial kingdom should be alluded to elsewhere in both the Old and New Testaments
is not making 2+2=22. It is more like the communitive property of addition, realizing 3+4=7 as well as 4+3=7.

-------------------------------------
Would anyone like to pick up on the eight points raised in post #158?
-------------------------------------

 

[oikonomia]

Revelation 12:5-11 teaches:

Reading the verses is always great.

We need to take an open, objective, and thorough look at this passage and let it speak for itself.

Posturing. Nothing else is here as it turns out.

We need to look at the context, identify what is happening, and then put the theological jigsaw pieces together. We need to be careful to refuse any interpretation that has been contrived of man, and foisted upon this text, to reinforce a faulty, preconceived, and prejudiced end-times viewpoint.

We need to refuse taking away words from the book like "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-7.
We need to beware of peppering questions which have the motive to remove "thousand years" from the text or
putting the period elsewhere from what is indicated.

The context of this teaching is clearly the aftermath of Christ’s successful earthly life, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection and His glorious ascent to assume His heavenly throne.

It is also after His second coming as you must be blind to realize from reading the previous chapter 19.
The last two verses of chapter 19 and first three of chapter 20 are a smooth and seamless transition from
Armagddon to the thousand years first mentioned in Revelation 20:3.

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. (19:20)

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (19:21)

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. (20:1)

And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years (#1 mention) (20:v)

And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years (#2 mention) were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (20:3)

Then we have next #3 mention of thousand years.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (#3 mention) (20:.4)

What souls is he talking about? How blind does one have to be to not see it is those
of the previous chapters who were martyred by the beast for not receiving the mark of his name.
Rather they died for the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast.

 

[oikonomia]

This all occurred 2000 years ago.

No it did not. And the excuse you are likely to make is that many have died for the testimony of Jesus already.
That is insufficient rationale to deny the end time beast and his mark and his number will be overcome in the future preceding
Christ's physical second coming to battle His enemies at Armageddon.

You're trying to twist away that these verses speak to the time of Antichrist's reign, the war at Armageddon, and Christ again physically
being on the earth.

This, according to the text, resulted in the devil’s eviction from heaven. Why? The penalty for sin had now been fully paid, the grave had been finally defeated, Satan’s grounds for accusation had been powerfully destroyed and his charge sheet against God’s people had been suitably ripped in two. Sin had lost its dominion over the believer and the devil’s condemning finger has now been broken. The accuser had lost his authority to bring charges against God’s elect before the bar of God in heaven. There was now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Satan had nothing on them.

It is good to stand upon there being no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. However the driving down of Satan
as the accuser has a specific period of time following it. And that is three and one half years or by the Hebrew calender 1,260 days.

Secondly Revelation 12 cannot mean Satan has never visited the earth doing his mischief. It means 1,260 days before
the end of the age he is completely LIMITED to that activity.

As far back as the book of Job we see Satan had the freedom to appear in heaven to accuse God's saints living on earth as well
as roaming around on earth.

Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan also came among them.
And Jehovah said to Satan, Where have you come from? And Satan answered Jehovah and said,
From roving the earth and going about in it. (Job 1:6,7)

So this verse in Revelation 12:12 doesn't mean Satan has prior to this never been on earth to persecute God's saints.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (v.12)

A perfect human life had been lived in the form of the earthly assignment of Christ. The law had been fully met and the punishment for sin had been fully executed. Those who placed their trust in Christ and His finished work on the cross were instantly set free of the dominion, power and penalty of sin. God’s people were now free. There was no longer any condemnation for the redeemed.

You mocked me saying 2+2 doesn't equal 22.
Here you are like a child who learned in third grade 2+2=4 and stayed there thinking there is no higher math to learn nine years latter.

You are well to speak of the redemption of Christ. But to teach only that as if there is nothing else is childish.
"Christ redeemed us so there is no millennial kingdom" is you obsession that there is nothing else to learn in math than
simple addition like 2+2=4.

Satan the accuser being finally limited to only be active on earth is not verses the redemption of Christ.
Satan having only 3.5 years left to do his utmost persecute God's saints in not verses the redemption of Christ.

The law had been fully met and the punishment for sin had been fully executed is not is occasion that some
who fully benefit subjectively from this are a remnant "man-child" out from a larger body of weaker saints.

I was not instantly set free from many things in a very practical sense the moment I was redeemed.
I had to grow unto salvation through taking in the nourishment of the word of God.

As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation,
If you have tasted that the Lord is good. (1 Peter 2:2,3)

I was forgiven instantaneously. I was not set free that fast. I had to and still have to learn to take Christ as my everything.

And you didn't get instantaneously liberated either from many sins.
And you yourself are still in the process (or should be) of growing with others into practical freedom.

If you could grow more you would see the error of so twisting the Bible by denying that there is a reward for those
eternally redeemed who have grown subjectively in life. They have not just declared some "sinless perfection" because
they have been forgiven.

No neither you nor I in a subjective, experiential, dispositional sense were instantaneously free from the power of sin.
Though in an instant we received eternal redemption from the guilt of sin.

We're in good company. For none of the writers of the New Testament would teach that there was no need
for them to grow in grace. And they were completely clear about eternal redemption in Christ. And they also
looked forward (especially Paul) to the reward of cooperating with the powerful grace. That reward is in the thousand year
kingdom preceding the eternal age.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Op Note

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah?

Isaiah doesn't provide any time period, but it does describe the situation to exist on earth after the Day of the Lord judgments have been concluded; therefore during the Millennium. Passages include 19:19-25; 60-62; 66:10ff.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Isaiah doesn't provide any time period, but it does describe the situation to exist on earth after the Day of the Lord judgments have been concluded; therefore during the Millennium. Passages include 19:19-25; 60-62; 66:10ff.

Can you exegete these. I do not see any correlation with Rev 20. Can you compare?

 

[sovereigngrace]

"Thousands years" is mentioned six times in Revelation 20:1-7.
Which verse did I "insert" "thousand years" in ?

And that the millennial kingdom should be alluded to elsewhere in both the Old and New Testaments
is not making 2+2=22. It is more like the communitive property of addition, realizing 3+4=7 as well as 4+3=7.

-------------------------------------
Would anyone like to pick up on the eight points raised in post #158?
-------------------------------------

It doesn't matter if it says it 666 times. We are looking at a highly symbolic setting, with highly symbolic numerology.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Can you exegete these. I do not see any correlation with Rev 20. Can you compare?

Rev. 20 has only 3 scant verses about events during the Millennium, all referring to Christ and the resurrected dead. Nothing at all about anything else going on on the earth. So there is really nothing to compare to, since the Church was an unknown mystery to the OT prophets.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rev. 20 has only 3 scant verses about events during the Millennium, all referring to Christ and the resurrected dead. Nothing at all about anything else going on on the earth. So there is really nothing to compare to, since the Church was an unknown mystery to the OT prophets.

Romans 16:25-26: “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

The Church was NOT an unknown mystery to the OT prophets. That is a Pretrib fallacy. Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament Church as a brand new spiritual innovation, which had no existence prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is “the mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say that because the New Testament Church is expressly called ‘the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God’ that it is a brand new construction started at the Upper Room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God's great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.”

 

[oikonomia]

Isaiah doesn't provide any time period, but it does describe the situation to exist on earth after the Day of the Lord judgments have been concluded; therefore during the Millennium. Passages include 19:19-25; 60-62; 66:10ff.

You have to realize that sovereigngrace is always going to demand where is thousand years mentioned.
His rationale for not believing Revelation 20:1-7 is not finding the phrase "thousand years" mentioned in
any prophecy of other passage speaking of that time.

This is the goalpost for now to discourage all who believe Revelation 20:1-7 at face value, plainly.
Any confirming scripture to a kingdom will be discarded as millennial of it doesn't specifically mention the span of 1,000 years.

Six mentions of it it Revelation 20:1-7 are not sufficient for him.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Reading the verses is always great.

Posturing. Nothing else is here as it turns out.

We need to refuse taking away words from the book like "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-7.
We need to beware of peppering questions which have the motive to remove "thousand years" from the text or
putting the period elsewhere from what is indicated.

It is also after His second coming as you must be blind to realize from reading the previous chapter 19.
The last two verses of chapter 19 and first three of chapter 20 are a smooth and seamless transition from
Armagddon to the thousand years first mentioned in Revelation 20:3.

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. (19:20)

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (19:21)

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. (20:1)

And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years (#1 mention) (20:v)

And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years (#2 mention) were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (20:3)

Then we have next #3 mention of thousand years.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (#3 mention) (20:.4)

What souls is he talking about? How blind does one have to be to not see it is those
of the previous chapters who were martyred by the beast for not receiving the mark of his name.
Rather they died for the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast.

Do you accept that the figure “a thousand” (including a thousand years) and ten thousand are repeatedly used in Scripture to denote a vast indeterminate amount or period of time?

Moses declares in Deuteronomy 7:9, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 91 says, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7). Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Deuteronomy 32:30 asks a rhetorical question, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?" Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, in Joshua 23:10, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth. Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 50:10-11 says, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Job 9:2-3 declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah 60:21-22 instructs, in relation to the new earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?[/QUOTE]