VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Exactly

Any time you see the words coming of our Lord it is talking about the second advent. You cannot apply those words to both a pretrib rapture and the second coming. Can you not see that makes no sense whatsoever? You can't just pick and choose which verse you want to apply to a pretrib rapture. Which you already tried to do with 1st John 2:28. The word "coming" implies just that. He's coming. He's descending from Heaven and we will be meeting the Lord. John tells the churches that he cometh with clouds and all eyes see him. To say otherwise would be adding to the word.

And why would Christ leave out something so important in Matthew 24 if a pretrib rapture were possible? After the disciples as for when and what will be the signs be about "his coming"? What coming is that? The coming of our Lord Jesus. It's as simple as that. One more coming -His.


Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

That's the gathering back together that Paul talks about. No two writers usually give the exact same description. But just like the gospels, Paul is describing the same event. Usually when you have the same account written by different people, you will get an even more rounded picture.




Christ did not have to talk about the dead. Gathering his elect (all in Christ) from one end of heaven to another is sufficient enough in that instance. The reason Paul brought up the dead in Christ was because that was the original subject in his letter to them starting with 1st 4:13. He was trying to comfort them and stated that they would be included. That's why he's coming from it at that angle and why it's worded different or do you not know the original subject? It's still the same "coming of the Lord". Those words alone again tells us that this is the Second Coming/Advent.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

Same trumpet

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"


It does not state that.

Christ states when talking about the tribulation-

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

He doesn't tell them they will be raptured away. He just laid out the tribulation and states after these things pass, then you can look up..

He also states during this time-

Luke 21:19 "In your patience possess ye your souls."

That's what's going to get you through, not some pretrib rapture. Patience to wait on the Lord and abide in him so that one not be ashamed before him at his coming. That's the truth. That's what's written. There are no holes, just scripture.


Again, this is not a pretrib rapture


John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Mansion in the Greek is mone

3438 a staying i.e. residence (the act or the place) abode, mansion.

Where do we abide at this moment? In Christ. That's what he's talking about. The Holy Spirit/the comforter

We have to read this entire passage to get the context.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto Him, "Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Thomas is asking him how can we know the way, but Christ doesn't talk about a rapture to Heaven he continues-

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

He's talking about he way to the Father is through him. He's not talking about a pretrib rapture.

John 14:7 "If ye had know Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 41:9 "Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father' "

John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the Works."

John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake."

John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it."

John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever

This is what Christ is talking about. The word abide has the same prime root as mansion/mone -meaning a stay.


John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Dwelleth and abide are the same Greek word. It all goes back to mansion/mone.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also."

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."

This verse goes back to verse 3. We are in him as he is in us.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

It's about making our abode with him and he with us. The disciples didn't start asking questions about a pretrib rapture to Heaven. The discussion did not pertain to that at all. Context is very important.


Once he does descends from Heaven, then it is the time for the restitution of "all things" A pretrib rapture doesn't fit there at all. Restitution means restore. He will come and usher in that restoration. He will not leave Heaven before that time. Acts 3:21 it is written.

You are butchering the context and meaning of John 14:2-3 (ESV): In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Verse 2 through the beginning of verse 3, are about Jesus preparing a "room" for each of us as our future home in Heaven.

Where is Jesus now?

Verse 3 continues: I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

In this context, "I will come again" along with "and will take you to myself" means Jesus will come back only to rapture us to Heaven, where He is now, and where He has prepared a "room" for each of us to live in, in Heaven.

Again, Jesus is in Heaven, and He will come for us before the wrath to come (1 Th 1:10) which starts no later than the 2nd seal (wars are a certified form of God's wrath, certified as such in Ezekiel 14:21 NLT: “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.)

 

[keras]

The giant hole in your statement is the trumpet in Matt 24:31 sounds only once, to send out His angels to gather the elect. That trumpet fulfills its sole purpose in doing that. You do not account for the trumpet that raises the dead in Christ. It can't be the same trumpet in v31 for it is sounded only once. You see? You naysayers to the pre-Trib rapture all have holes in your alternatives to the pre-Trib rapture.

Trumpets can be and are; sounded many times. Hanging a whole theory on that premise is flimsy and faulty.
All the dead in Christ are not raised when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4-5 is a clear statement. ONLY the martyrs beheaded during the Great Trib of the final 42 months; Jesus will bring their souls with Him..... and the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

You don't have holes in the rapture to heaven belief. Such an outcome is simply non-existent.

You are misunderstanding what those verses say about going to Heaven. Mainly, we cannot get there on our own power. Otherwise, it is not time for us to go to Heaven. In the rapture, it is clearly time to go to Heaven.

You are a sad case, JB. For anyone to go to heaven, they must change into a Spiritual being. Mortals do not live in heaven.
So; before any supposed rapture, or becoming immortal, this change must take place. Two Prophecies tell us when this will happen. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 and Revelation 21:1-7 They are parallel scriptures, both referring to the time after the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by how it will be only then that Death will be no more.

 

[JulieB67]

In my Father's house are many rooms.

Actually you are butchering the context. The word rooms is not even in the Greek manuscripts when it comes to that verse. The word mansion is mone, that's the Greek word. At least with mansion we can get it properly translated back to the Greek. The Greek word for rooms is entirely different Greek word and not used this verse.

And the word mone is only used twice and in this chapter. The other verse is-

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Abode and mansion translated back to the Greek are the very same word -mone.

When he says "we will come unto him, that's what he means, not a pretrib rapture to Heaven. The disciples and him don't discuss anything like that. It's confusing because the English for some reason translated that to mansions and other bible -rooms but the word is mone and abode is also mone.

Strong's Concordance
moné: an abiding, an abode

3438 monḗ (from 3306 /ménō, "to remain, abide") – an abiding dwelling-place (i.e. not transitory). 3438 /monḗ ("an individual dwelling") is only used twice in the NT (both times by Christ).

This the place Christ is talking about, the dwelling place inside. He states we will come unto him, and make our abode (same word as mansion) with him. It's easily checked out when you take it to the Greek and you read the entire passage and see what exactly Christ is talking about.

That's the complete context. Again the disciples ask him and he thoroughly explains it.

Even the lexicons-

Mone Definition​

NAS Word Usage - Total: 2

1. mon-ay'
   Parts of SpeechNoun Feminine
   

   Mone Definition​

   NAS Word Usage - Total: 2
   1. a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode
   2. to make an (one's) abode
   3. metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

Verse 2 through the beginning of verse 3, are about Jesus preparing a "room" for each of us as our future home in Heaven.

Our future home is here on earth. That's written.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Actually you are butchering the context. The word rooms is not even in the Greek manuscripts when it comes to that verse. The word mansion is mone, that's the Greek word. At least with mansion we can get it properly translated back to the Greek. The Greek word for rooms is entirely different Greek word and not used this verse.

And the word mone is only used twice and in this chapter. The other verse is-

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Abode and mansion translated back to the Greek are the very same word -mone.

When he says "we will come unto him, that's what he means, not a pretrib rapture to Heaven. The disciples and him don't discuss anything like that. It's confusing because the English for some reason translated that to mansions and other bible -rooms but the word is mone and abode is also mone.

Strong's Concordance
moné: an abiding, an abode

3438 monḗ (from 3306 /ménō, "to remain, abide") – an abiding dwelling-place (i.e. not transitory). 3438 /monḗ ("an individual dwelling") is only used twice in the NT (both times by Christ).

This the place Christ is talking about, the dwelling place inside. He states we will come unto him, and make our abode (same word as mansion) with him. It's easily checked out when you take it to the Greek and you read the entire passage and see what exactly Christ is talking about.

That's the complete context. Again the disciples ask him and he thoroughly explains it.

Even the lexicons-

Mone Definition​

NAS Word Usage - Total: 2

1. mon-ay'
   Parts of SpeechNoun Feminine
   

   Mone Definition​

   NAS Word Usage - Total: 2
   1. a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode
   2. to make an (one's) abode
   3. metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

Our future home is here on earth. That's written.

John 14:2-3 have NOTHING to do with John 14:23. Verses 2-3 are about Jesus preparing a place for each of us to live, in Heaven. Verse 23 is about our keeping His commandments and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Trumpets can be and are; sounded many times. Hanging a whole theory on that premise is flimsy and faulty.
All the dead in Christ are not raised when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4-5 is a clear statement. ONLY the martyrs beheaded during the Great Trib of the final 42 months; Jesus will bring their souls with Him..... and the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

You don't have holes in the rapture to heaven belief. Such an outcome is simply non-existent.

You are a sad case, JB. For anyone to go to heaven, they must change into a Spiritual being. Mortals do not live in heaven.
So; before any supposed rapture, or becoming immortal, this change must take place. Two Prophecies tell us when this will happen. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 and Revelation 21:1-7 They are parallel scriptures, both referring to the time after the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by how it will be only then that Death will be no more.

Here is 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Verse 16 says "the sound of the trumpet" and "the dead in Christ will rise first." ----- That represents a single sound of that trumpet and only to raise the dead in Christ.

Matt 24:31 (ESV): And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Verse 31 is about "a loud trumpet call" to "gather his elect from the four winds." It's one sound of a trumpet and for a wholly different purpose: to gather the elect from the four winds.

Each trumpet sounds only once, for a different purpose. These two trumpets are not part of the same event.

Verse 16 says "And the dead in Christ will rise first" This raises 100% of the dead in Christ, as of the rapture. The souls in 1 Th 4:14 are from Paradise (Luke 23:43: And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”)

In the course of the Trib, there is a great multitude of martyrs (new converts in the Trib). There are also many unbelievers who will die and be killed, in sin. The martyrs go to Heaven, under the altar "until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been" (Rev 6:11). ----- Those fellow servant are in Rev 20:4. They combine to form the GM (Great Multitude) found in Rev 7:9-17. All prior dead who died in sin, and all who die in sin in the Trib, are the ONLY dead who will be at the GWTJ.

You're also not accounting for the separation of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46). The goats "will go away into eternal punishment," The non-martyred converts in the Trib are the sheep.

Everything fits together beautifully when you account for the pre-Trib rapture (John 14:3, 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10), along with the proper understanding of the new converts in the Trib and the hardcore unbelievers.

 

[keras]

Everything fits together beautifully when you account for the pre-Trib rapture

Your problem with that belief, is - Where in the Bible does it actually say the Lord will take people up to live in heaven?

And as you knowingly and deliberately ignore plainly stated scriptures like Revelation 20:4-6, then I wash my hands of you.
The day will come when you will bitterly regret your intransigence and inability to understand the truths of the Prophetic Word.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your problem with that belief, is - Where in the Bible does it actually say the Lord will take people up to live in heaven?

And as you knowingly and deliberately ignore plainly stated scriptures like Revelation 20:4-6, then I wash my hands of you.
The day will come when you will bitterly regret your intransigence and inability to understand the truths of the Prophetic Word.

John 14:2-3, if read honestly, are seen to be about a context of Heaven, with Jesus saying He will prepare a place for each of us, to live with Him in Heaven. That is the bulk of those two verses. The last part of verse 3 is Jesus clearly descending from Heaven, gathering us, and taking us straight to Heaven. This is compelled to occur prior to all wrath in the Trib. Wrath begins no later than the 2nd seal with the widespread wars. Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. ----- The wars in the Trib are part or the 21 judgements. Therefore, they are God's wrath. 1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Keras, I am operating 100% on the Word of God. Jesus says the rapture will occur pre-Trib. I'll go with Him. Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

The "inhabitants of the earth" is not an endearing phrase. That is a kind way to say the "degenerate unbelievers." It is they and only they who will go on trial in the Trib.

 

[JulieB67]

Keras, I am operating 100% on the Word of God.

You are adding to the Word of God so you can hang on to your doctrine.

I showed you that the word rooms is actually the word mone in that verse. It has nothing to do with rooms being prepared in Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are adding to the Word of God so you can hang on to your doctrine.

I showed you that the word rooms is actually the word mone in that verse. It has nothing to do with rooms being prepared in Heaven.You

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are adding to the Word of God so you can hang on to your doctrine.

I showed you that the word rooms is actually the word mone in that verse. It has nothing to do with rooms being prepared in Heaven.

John 14:2 (KJV): In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

You are claiming it's about Jesus indwelling us. That is not the context. For the whole of verse 2, to well into verse 3, Jesus very lovingly makes known He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, in Heaven.

The rest of verse 3 is about rapturing us to Heaven. Verse 3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

This is the rapture straight to Heaven: "I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

 

[keras]

Keras, I am operating 100% on the Word of God. Jesus says the rapture will occur pre-Trib. I'll go with Him. Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Really? Its very obvious you are not 100%, as you keep desperately posting the same failed verses which don't even mention heaven.
Why do you ignore this, what Jesus says; But whosoever endures until the end, shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
Reiterated in: Hebrews 10:36, Revelation 13:10, Revelation 14:12

Keeping from the hour of trial, does not mean a rapture outta here. It means protection and being saved from harm. We all must pass thru the fiery test to come; 1 Peter 4:12

 

[JulieB67]

In my Father's house are many mansions

Translated "In my Father's house are many mones -that's the word that's in the manuscripts.

I don't even know why I'm going over this again...

From meno; a staying, i.e. Residence (the act or the place) -- abode, mansion.

3438 monḗ (from 3306 /ménō, "to remain, abide") – an abiding dwelling-place (i.e. not transitory). 3438 /monḗ ("an individual dwelling") is only used twice in the NT (both times by Christ).

This is the rapture straight to Heaven: "I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Abode is mone in the Greek. Same word as mansion. They will make their abode (mone again) with us.

Sometimes these meanings get lost in the translation.

But those are the facts of these verses. There is nothing about a pretrib rapture. He's having a continuing discussion with the disciples and a pretrib rapture does not come up.
​

He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, in Heaven.

Those are your words, not the scriptures.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Really? Its very obvious you are not 100%, as you keep desperately posting the same failed verses which don't even mention heaven.
Why do you ignore this, what Jesus says; But whosoever endures until the end, shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
Reiterated in: Hebrews 10:36, Revelation 13:10, Revelation 14:12

Keeping from the hour of trial, does not mean a rapture outta here. It means protection and being saved from harm. We all must pass thru the fiery test to come; 1 Peter 4:12

You claim the verses I cite don't mention Heaven. What is meant by "my Father's house" in John 14:2 (ESV)?

Where is Jesus now? Jesus says in John 14:3 (ESV): "... I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." Where is Jesus referring to that He will take us to?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Translated "In my Father's house are many mones -that's the word that's in the manuscripts.

I don't even know why I'm going over this again...

From meno; a staying, i.e. Residence (the act or the place) -- abode, mansion.

3438 monḗ (from 3306 /ménō, "to remain, abide") – an abiding dwelling-place (i.e. not transitory). 3438 /monḗ ("an individual dwelling") is only used twice in the NT (both times by Christ).

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Abode is mone in the Greek. Same word as mansion. They will make their abode (mone again) with us.

Sometimes these meanings get lost in the translation.

But those are the facts of these verses. There is nothing about a pretrib rapture. He's having a continuing discussion with the disciples and a pretrib rapture does not come up.
​

Those are your words, not the scriptures.

Julie, your Greek treatment of John 14:2-3 is inapplicable. What is meant by "my Father's house" in John 14:2 (ESV)?

Where is Jesus now? Jesus says in John 14:3 (ESV): "... I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." Where is Jesus referring to that He will take us to?

 

[keras]

What is meant by "my Father's house" in John 14:2 (ESV)?

My Fathers House does refer to heaven. It is where God is preparing the new Jerusalem, that is scheduled to come down to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1
The idea that anyone will go there before then, is false and will never happen.

Where is Jesus referring to that He will take us to?

Jesus said: I will come again and take you to where I am....... He Returns and we are transported to where He will be; Jerusalem Zephaniah 14:4 Exactly as Jesus says in Matthew 24:30-31

What is preferable Jeffery? Believing a theory that the Bible does not support, or having a correct understanding of what the Lord actually does plan for our future?
This is mighty important for all who are alive today, as it is evident from many angles, that time is very short now and we face huge and dramatic changes. Just as the Prophetic Word tell us.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

My Fathers House does refer to heaven. It is where God is preparing the new Jerusalem, that is scheduled to come down to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1
The idea that anyone will go there before then, is false and will never happen.

Jesus said: I will come again and take you to where I am....... He Returns and we are transported to where He will be; Jerusalem Zephaniah 14:4 Exactly as Jesus says in Matthew 24:30-31

What is preferable Jeffery? Believing a theory that the Bible does not support, or having a correct understanding of what the Lord actually does plan for our future?
This is mighty important for all who are alive today, as it is evident from many angles, that time is very short now and we face huge and dramatic changes. Just as the Prophetic Word tell us.

My Fathers House does refer to heaven. It is where God is preparing the new Jerusalem, that is scheduled to come down to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1
The idea that anyone will go there before then, is false and will never happen.

Jesus said: I will come again and take you to where I am....... He Returns and we are transported to where He will be; Jerusalem Zephaniah 14:4 Exactly as Jesus says in Matthew 24:30-31

What is preferable Jeffery? Believing a theory that the Bible does not support, or having a correct understanding of what the Lord actually does plan for our future?
This is mighty important for all who are alive today, as it is evident from many angles, that time is very short now and we face huge and dramatic changes. Just as the Prophetic Word tell us.

Where is the altar, where the souls are under, in Rev 6:9? Where are the thrones in Rev 20:4, and who is seated on them?
Rev 7:9 (ESV): … standing before the throne and before the Lamb, ----- Where is the throne of the Lamb? Who’s standing before the throne of the Lamb?

You still don’t accept that verses that are about us NOT YET going to Heaven only emphasize that we can’t get there on our own power or we’re not yet to go there.

Where is Jesus now? Jesus says in John 14:3 (ESV): "... I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." Where is Jesus referring to that He will take us to? "That where I am" means I am where I previously mentioned I am: in my Father's house (verse 2). Please understand in this context the word "that" is used to indicate a person, thing, idea, state, event, time, remark, etc., as mentioned before. The place that was mentioned before was "in my Father's house."

1 Th 4:17 proves that Jesus draws us to Him. We are raptured from Earth and drawn into Heavenly clouds, to meet Jesus in the air. This is what is meant in John 14:3: and will TAKE YOU to myself.

Jesus said the rapture will occur pre-Trib: Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ----- We are not subjected to the wrathful judgements of the Trib. Those wrathful judgements are reserved exclusively for "those who dwell on the earth." This is how those degenerate unbelievers are otherwise described in Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

We are not they who "dwell on the earth."

 

[JulieB67]

What is meant by "my Father's house"

Heaven is wherever the Father dwells in at the moment -House is abode. In his Fathers house there are many mones-dwelling places/abiding places/a staying.

But Christ did not say that when he comes he will take anyone to back to Heaven. He states

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Not one word about going to Heaven. He is going to receive them unto himself that where he is they may be also. -After he comes again.

Our future home is here on the new earth. But we can have that abiding rest/dwelling place right now with the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

You can't cling to a few verses and claim they are about a pretrib rapture. You have to weigh them with all other scripture.

The subject of Christ's return is in the gospels, Matthew 24 Mark 13, Luke 21. Why do you not take to heart Christ's teaching there?

The disciples asks for signs about his coming and he gives them. What more can we want? There wouldn't be all this confusion if people just accepted Christ's teachings on the very subject of when he does come.

And it's noted in Mark 13, he has foretold all things about this subject-

Mark 13:23 "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

He's told us everything in advance so anyone can be ready if it should happen in their lifetime. And he didn't state one thing about a pretrib rapture. In fact he gives warnings, he tells people if someone were to say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it "not". That's another warning.
His first warning is to not be deceived. Paul would later second that warning.

But he does not leave us lacking on this subject. If we believe the gospels on this subject, the rest of the word clicks into place with these gospels, nothing contrary to what Christ taught.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Heaven is wherever the Father dwells in at the moment -House is abode. In his Fathers house there are many mones-dwelling places/abiding places/a staying.

But Christ did not say that when he comes he will take anyone to Heaven. He states

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Not one word about going to Heaven. He is going to receive them unto himself that where he is they may be also.

Our future home is here on the new earth. But we can have that abiding rest/dwelling place right now with the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

You can't cling to a few verses and claim they are about a pretrib rapture. You have to weigh them with all other scripture.

The subject of Christ's return is in the gospels, Matthew 24 Mark 13, Luke 21. Why do you not take to heart Christ's teaching there?

The disciples asks for signs about his coming and he gives them. What more can we want? There wouldn't be all this confusion if people just accepted Christ's teachings.

And it's noted in Mark 13, he has foretold all things about this subject-

Mark 13:23 "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

He's told us everything in advance so anyone can be ready if it should happen in their lifetime. And he didn't state one thing about a pretrib rapture. In fact he gives warnings, he tells people if someone were to say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it "not". That's another warning.
His first warning is to not be deceived. Paul would later second that warning.

But he does not leave us lacking on this subject. If we believe the gospels on this subject, the rest of the word clicks into place with these gospels, nothing contrary to what Christ taught.

Paul was speaking in 2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in verse 3 refers back to "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. Therefore, it is unmistakable that these three verses are about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon gives two definitions for "apostasia" [which is in the Greek verse 3]: (1) defection; revolt; and (2) departure; disappearance. Which definition fits verse 3, when we know for sure the context is the rapture?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

My Fathers House does refer to heaven. It is where God is preparing the new Jerusalem, that is scheduled to come down to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1
The idea that anyone will go there before then, is false and will never happen.

Jesus said: I will come again and take you to where I am....... He Returns and we are transported to where He will be; Jerusalem Zephaniah 14:4 Exactly as Jesus says in Matthew 24:30-31

What is preferable Jeffery? Believing a theory that the Bible does not support, or having a correct understanding of what the Lord actually does plan for our future?
This is mighty important for all who are alive today, as it is evident from many angles, that time is very short now and we face huge and dramatic changes. Just as the Prophetic Word tell us.

Paul was speaking in 2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in verse 3 refers back to "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. Therefore, it is unmistakable that these three verses are about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon gives two definitions for "apostasia" [which is in the Greek verse 3]: (1) defection; revolt; and (2) departure; disappearance. Which definition fits verse 3, when we know for sure the context is the rapture?

 

[JulieB67]

o "the day of the Lord"

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Therefore, it is unmistakable that these three verses are about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.
Definitely not a pretrib rapture.

These verses in 2nd Thes are written because the Thessalonians were confused and thought that Christ could come back at any time. And Paul tells them not to be deceived and states that day shall not happen until the apostasy and son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

Liddell & Scott don't even get their second definition from the bible/manuscripts. It was from a commentary/document centuries after the NT.

Paul's teaching also coincides with Christ's teaching perfectly.

Again, I will follow Christ's teaching and believe that he has foretold us all things about the subject.