VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Dan, thank you for taking the time to share all those details.

What is the definition of rapture? Jesus defines it in John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and WILL TAKE YOU TO MYSELF, that where I am you may be also.

The "where I am you may be also" is about Jesus in Heaven. He will come for us and TAKE US to Himself, in Heaven.

That verse aligns perfectly with 1 Th 4:16-17. In v16, Jesus comes back. In v17, we are TAKEN UP into clouds where we'll first see Jesus, and He'll be in the air. So, just like John 14:3, Jesus comes back for us, and then He TAKES US UP to Heaven. John 14:3 is an abbreviated 1 Th 4:16-17. Notice that we won't see Jesus until we pass through the clouds of v17. Jesus is hidden behind those clouds the whole time of the rapture. We will pass through clouds (v17) and then meet Jesus in the air (v17).

I want to address 2 Th 2:3. As you say, the original word was "apostasia." It has two primary definitions: (1) defection; revolt; and (2) departure; disappearance. Those definitions are found in the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon. Liddell & Scott were pre-eminent Greek scholars and translators in the mid-1800's.

Please note that in definition #2 of apostasia, "departure" is in the sense of "disappearance." Therefore, departure in Greek means physical departure, as in disappearance. Definition #1 of apostasia is about a falling away, even rebelliously. So, between those two definitions, we have a falling away in definition #1, and a physical departure in definition #2.

I’ve been challenged in the past to prove apostasia was ever used in the Bible as a physical departure. First of all, the first Bible was written in Greek. Therefore, this is how 2 Th 2:3 looked in the Greek Bible:

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

The keyword is ἀποστασία. It translates to "apostasia."

In addition to that, the very meaning of apostasia’s second definition is a sudden disappearance. Jesus demonstrated the second definition of apostasia in Luke 24:31 (NIV): Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

2 Th 2:3 therefore comes down to the context. Rapture is clearly the context of v1. In that verse, Paul is raising the topic of the rapture. In v2, Paul sorts through deception his flock had suffered, making them think they had missed the rapture and were in the in the Trib. So, the context of rapture is in v2. In v3, "that day" refers back to v2 and its Day of the Lord (often used interchangeably with Day of Christ) to mean the 7-year Trib. Paul says in v3 (Geneva Bible 1599), Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the Day of Christ, which starts with the 7-year Trib) shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,

So, there you have in Scripture, the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

If you're unfamiliar with Bible history, "falling away" never appeared in v3 (2 Th 2:3) until 1611. The KJV was the first to use definition #1 of apostasia in 1611, and they created a sea change in the interpretation of v3 by being the first to use "falling away" in v3. You can imagine the stir that caused from Greek scholars. It continues to this day. Oddly enough, KJV has never said why they made that change. My guess is arm-twisting by Roman Catholics, who were vehemently against the pre-Trib rapture, and who also apparently held great sway in the Bible publishing and distribution businesses. In other words, if you want publishing and distribution of your newly published Bible, you must accept definition #1 of apostasia in v3, even though there isn't any contextual justification for it whatsoever. This is truly a scandal in Bible publishing.

The ending of v3 refers to the antichrist, because after the rapture occurs, the Trib starts by Rev 6:1-2. Those verses are the first revelation of the AC. He rides a white horse to mimic Jesus, as Jesus will later be seen on a white horse in Rev 19:11-16.

That is the long and short of 2 Th 2:1-3.

 

[JulieB67]

’I've been challenged in the past to prove apostasia was ever used in the Bible as a physical departure

I wasn't going to post but just in case there's a lurker that's curious about this very word I wanted to say you didn't prove a physical rapture with apostasia . All you had to say was no. Apostasia was only used twice and in both instances have the same meaning. In fact the way it's utilized in Acts 21:21 should give us context on how it's viewed in 2nd Thes 2:3

646 apostasia -defection from truth (prop) the state) apostasy, falling away, forsake

There is nothing in this definition that even suggests it's a physical departure. Fall away/forsake has always meant defection from the truth, faith, etc.

. Jesus demonstrated the second definition of apostasia in Luke 24:31 (NIV): Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

You're only so called proof of it being a physical departure is not the same Greek word at all. It's not apostasia. It's the Greek word 855 aphantos and it means non-manifested, vanished out of sight. It has nothing to do with apostasy and to suggest the Lord demonstrated any form of apostasia is...I don't even want to think about it.

Luke 24:31 "And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight."

Vanished -855 aphantos, not apostasia.

You are trying so hard to prove your side that you are suggesting stuff that is not true. So, no you haven't proven that apostasia has ever been a physical departure, while the words -fall, fall away, falling away, forsake, etc departing from the faith, always means just that -defection from the truth/faith. We do not want to be part of the falling away. We want to stand, having done all to stand.

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

Acts 21:21 "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that neither to walk after the customs."

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

This is exactly what Paul is talking about in 2nd Thes, he even states -latter times some shall depart from the faith. That is proof. You still have not shown any.

If Paul wanted to use the word departure/departing, he could have used these words that mean a physical departure

Acts 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Greek word 867 oppostive of arrival- departure/departing.

Greek word 359- analusis-departure

Here is the Lord with a physical "departing"


Mark 7:31 "And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, He came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis."

Which again is not apostasia, it's Greek word 1831 exerchomai-to issue, come forth, out, depart (out of) escape, get out, etc.



Acts 13:13 "Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem."

Another Greek word -672 apochoreo -to go away-depart

Not one time has apostasia ever been translated to mean -physical depature.

Again, as you probably already know when you researched this word, Greek word 646 apostasia has only been used twice and in the same fashion.


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Acts 21:21 "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that neither to walk after the customs."

Even the root word from 647 which is 868, the basis for many early translators using "departure" but it leads to the same conclusion.

647 apostasion which means separation/divorce has the same basic meaning.

Greek word 868 aphistemi to remove i.e instigate, to revolt; usually to desist, depart, draw (fall away) refrain, withdraw self.

It's all the same and points to the same meaning in regards to departing from the faith, not a physical departure.



I found this snippet from an article while researching because you keep acting as if the second definition to the liddell scott lexicon is any kind of proof when it has no basis for what we know about apostasia in the NT.
It was written by Dr Alan Kurschner ( a Greek scholar among other things) who researched this subject from every angle.

Liddell and Scott’s lexicon A Greek-English Lexicon lists the primary meaning of apostasia as “defection, revolt”: “esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo. 22.22, 2 Ep.Th. 2.3.” As a secondary sense, the lexicon has “departure, disappearance.” However, the lexicon only recognizes this secondary sense as found in the sixth century A.D. document Olympiodorus Philosophus: in Mete. = in Aristotelis Meteora commentaria, ed. W. Stüve (Comm. in Arist. Graeca xii pars ii), Berlin 1900. This latter example of a spatial departure is thus found five centuries later after the New Testament. It is sloppy and simply fallacious to read back, not only this obscure meaning, but one that is five centuries after the New Testament

That's it- one document/commentary five centuries after the NT. So there is no proof that a physical departure is meant for apostasia in the NT.

Once we know the true definition than we can truly understand the warning by Paul on this subject and what he's really telling us. He's a second witness to Christ's very same warning. We are told to not be deceived by any means.

And really common sense has to come into play at some point. Paul states Satan is disguised as an angel of light. Who is our angel of light? Christ. Satan and his gang will mimic that. Anti in the Greek means instead of. They will be here instead of Christ pretending to be savior to the world.

Revelation states he has horns like a lamb (Christ is our lamb) but spoke as a dragon.

That's why Paul states this-

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand

Paul is teaching this to believers and it's not about every day life it's about standing in "the evil day' it's about the wiles (trickery in the Greek) of the devil. The devil will throw some in prison. This is told to one of the churches (Christian church) in Revelation. This is real and very serious.

This is what the hour of temptation (trial) is. Christians if it should happen in their lifetime need to be prepared mentally to be able to stand and endure to the end. Those will be the ones that are saved as Christ states. If we stand and show patience, God will keep/guard over them at that time. Christ states in your patience, possess your souls. That's what's important.

That's why one needs the whole armor and that includes the word of God. Especially the warnings that the son of perdition will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God before our gathering back together. Many will fall away because they are expecting Christ first. That's why Christ states he comes at an hour most do not expect. That's because most of the world will have bought in and are thinking peace and safety. What shock when the true Christ returns.

Anyone just waiting for Christ at this point to return are prime for the picking.

You keep talking about John 14:3 as if it proves a rapture but when we read the entire chapter we see that the context is that he will come again in the way of the Holy Spirit/the comforter, he will not leave us comfortless as he states.


John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

....
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

Abide has that same prime root as mansion/mone in the greek. It means dwelling

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This chapter is not describing a rapture. It means he will come in the way of the Comforter. Mansion/mone is a dwelling place- a place to abide.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I wasn't going to post but just in case there's a lurker that's curious about this very word I wanted to say you didn't prove a physical rapture with apostasia . All you had to say was no. Apostasia was only used twice and in both instances have the same meaning. In fact the way it's utilized in Acts 21:21 should give us context on how it's viewed in 2nd Thes 2:3

646 apostasia -defection from truth (prop) the state) apostasy, falling away, forsake

There is nothing in this definition that even suggests it's a physical departure. Fall away/forsake has always meant defection from the truth, faith, etc.



You're only so called proof of it being a physical departure is not the same Greek word at all. It's not apostasia. It's the Greek word 855 aphantos and it means non-manifested, vanished out of sight. It has nothing to do with apostasy and to suggest the Lord demonstrated any form of apostasia is...I don't even want to think about it.

Luke 24:31 "And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight."

Vanished -855 aphantos, not apostasia.

You are trying so hard to prove your side that you are suggesting stuff that is not true. So, no you haven't proven that apostasia has ever been a physical departure, while the words -fall, fall away, falling away, forsake, etc departing from the faith, always means just that -defection from the truth/faith. We do not want to be part of the falling away. We want to stand, having done all to stand.

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

Acts 21:21 "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that neither to walk after the customs."

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

This is exactly what Paul is talking about in 2nd Thes, he even states -latter times some shall depart from the faith. That is proof. You still have not shown any.

If Paul wanted to use the word departure/departing, he could have used these words that mean a physical departure

Acts 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Greek word 867 oppostive of arrival- departure/departing.

Greek word 359- analusis-departure

Here is the Lord with a physical "departing"


Mark 7:31 "And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, He came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis."

Which again is not apostasia, it's Greek word 1831 exerchomai-to issue, come forth, out, depart (out of) escape, get out, etc.



Acts 13:13 "Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem."

Another Greek word -672 apochoreo -to go away-depart

Not one time has apostasia ever been translated to mean -physical depature.

Again, as you probably already know when you researched this word, Greek word 646 apostasia has only been used twice and in the same fashion.


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Acts 21:21 "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that neither to walk after the customs."

Even the root word from 647 which is 868, the basis for many early translators using "departure" but it leads to the same conclusion.

647 apostasion which means separation/divorce has the same basic meaning.

Greek word 868 aphistemi to remove i.e instigate, to revolt; usually to desist, depart, draw (fall away) refrain, withdraw self.

It's all the same and points to the same meaning in regards to departing from the faith, not a physical departure.



I found this snippet from an article while researching because you keep acting as if the second definition to the liddell scott lexicon is any kind of proof when it has no basis for what we know about apostasia in the NT.
It was written by Dr Alan Kurschner ( a Greek scholar among other things) who researched this subject from every angle.



That's it- one document/commentary five centuries after the NT. So there is no proof that a physical departure is meant for apostasia in the NT.

Once we know the true definition than we can truly understand the warning by Paul on this subject and what he's really telling us. He's a second witness to Christ's very same warning. We are told to not be deceived by any means.

And really common sense has to come into play at some point. Paul states Satan is disguised as an angel of light. Who is our angel of light? Christ. Satan and his gang will mimic that. Anti in the Greek means instead of. They will be here instead of Christ pretending to be savior to the world.

Revelation states he has horns like a lamb (Christ is our lamb) but spoke as a dragon.

That's why Paul states this-

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand

Paul is teaching this to believers and it's not about every day life it's about standing in "the evil day' it's about the wiles (trickery in the Greek) of the devil. The devil will throw some in prison. This is told to one of the churches (Christian church) in Revelation. This is real and very serious.

This is what the hour of temptation (trial) is. Christians if it should happen in their lifetime need to be prepared mentally to be able to stand and endure to the end. Those will be the ones that are saved as Christ states. If we stand and show patience, God will keep/guard over them at that time. Christ states in your patience, possess your souls. That's what's important.

That's why one needs the whole armor and that includes the word of God. Especially the warnings that the son of perdition will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God before our gathering back together. Many will fall away because they are expecting Christ first. That's why Christ states he comes at an hour most do not expect. That's because most of the world will have bought in and are thinking peace and safety. What shock when the true Christ returns.

Anyone just waiting for Christ at this point to return are prime for the picking.

You keep talking about John 14:3 as if it proves a rapture but when we read the entire chapter we see that the context is that he will come again in the way of the Holy Spirit/the comforter, he will not leave us comfortless as he states.


John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

....
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

Abide has that same prime root as mansion/mone in the greek. It means dwelling

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This chapter is not describing a rapture. It means he will come in the way of the Comforter. Mansion/mone is a dwelling place- a place to abide.

Apostasia has five definitions. The propaganda machine limits the number of definitions for apostasia to one. That is why you only find one definition of apostasia in Strong's. They know the word has five definitions, and they purposely omit four of them. Its first definition is about a falling away (defection; revolt). Its second definition is about a physical departure (departure; disappearance). Disappearance means instantly gone from the very space one is in, with no trace left immediately afterwards. Departure therefore means physical departure.

Look at what Liddell & Scott did. They couldn't have been more fair. They gave two primary definitions to apostasia where the first is a spiritual departure and the second is a physical departure.

Context is king. In 2 Th 2:1, Paul immediately raised the topic of the rapture. That makes rapture the context. V2 is about a very clever deception perpetrated against his flock. It was a letter, made to appear to be from Paul, saying they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib (Day of Christ/Day of the Lord). V3 corrects his flock, where "that day" (Day of Christ/Day of the Lord) means the 7-year Trib: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

John 14:3 stands on its own. It is Jesus' beautiful summary of 1 Th 4:16-17. In v16, Jesus comes back. In v17, Jesus TAKES US UP to Heaven. In John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there may ye be also.

 

[JulieB67]

Jeffrey, just curious do you see these verses as pertaining to the second coming or to a pretrib rapture?

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Both of those verses use the word "appear." That is not a rapture term.

At the time of the 2A, there is time for worldly reactions like shame. Matt 24:30 (NIV) even says "then all the peoples of the earth will mourn."

At the time of the rapture, there's no time to react. We hear the trumpet sound to raise the dead in Christ, then we are immediately together with them as we pass through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. The rapture is instantaneous. It's not a moment of shame. It's a time for "Hallelujah!"

The official rapture verses, 1 Th 4:16-17, do not have Jesus appearing to the whole world. In those two verses, the only location stated about Jesus is "in the air," which we only discover once we pass through clouds to meet Him. We have to pass through clouds before we can see Him. This proves that Jesus is behind clouds the whole time of the rapture.

The ascension dictates the terms of Jesus' visibility in the rapture. He ascended only in the view of believers (His disciples). He ascended into clouds, then into Heaven.

The descension in 1 Th 4:16 therefore is from Heaven into clouds, then only into the view of believers. This is why you only read of Jesus being seen once we pass through clouds in 1 Th 4:17 to meet Him in the air. Therefore, it is wholly unbiblical to assign 1 Th 4:16-17 to the 2A or to any other verses that imply Jesus appearing to the whole world. Those verses do not and cannot align with the terms dictated by the ascension.

 

[JulieB67]

That is not a rapture term.

Exactly. You would agree these are about the second coming.

So why is John telling them (Christians) to abide in him so that when he does appear at the second coming they can have confidence and not be ashamed before him? That wouldn't make sense if were possible they were to be raptured away. Which they would if they were abiding in him. So again that makes no sense. Also in the Hebrews 9:28, it states that those that "look" for him. These are watchmen/Christians. This also does not make sense to tell Christians that look for him he will appear a second time.

These same words "appear" and coming are all linked to the second coming in many verses So why are those words always addressed to Christians if they were going to be raptured regardless?

These are just a few-


I Peter 5:3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

I Peter 5:4 "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

Again, these are Christians, as are these-

John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is."

Only when he appears shall we be like him as this verse states.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Exactly. You would agree these are about the second coming.

So why is John telling them (Christians) to abide in him so that when he does appear at the second coming they can have confidence and not be ashamed before him? That wouldn't make sense if were possible they were to be raptured away. Which they would if they were abiding in him. So again that makes no sense. Also in the Hebrews 9:28, it states that those that "look" for him. These are watchmen/Christians. This also does not make sense to tell Christians that look for him he will appear a second time.

These same words "appear" and coming are all linked to the second coming in many verses So why are those words always addressed to Christians if they were going to be raptured regardless?

These are just a few-


I Peter 5:3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

I Peter 5:4 "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

Again, these are Christians, as are these-

John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is."

Only when he appears shall we be like him as this verse states.

First, "coming" is not exclusively a 2A term. Paul cites the rapture in 2 Th 2:1 (NIV): Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, ... ----- That aligns 100% with John 14:3 (Jesus comes and instantly gathers) and 1 Th 4:16-17 ( Jesus comes and instantly gathers).

There are also no angels cited in 1 Th 4:16-17, so the gathering in the rapture has nothing to do with the gathering in Matt 24:31. In 1
Th 4:16, "the voice of an archangel" is only stated about Jesus' trumpet voice (Rev 4:1). It's all about Jesus' tremendous trumpet voice and Jesus being by Himself, in 1 Th 4:16. That is the opposite of Matt 24:30-31, where angels are numerous at the beginning of the 2A.

That brings up another use of "appear" and "appearing." Once we pass through clouds to see Jesus in the rapture, he does appear to us, but only after the rapture. The Judgment Seat of Christ is very strongly implied by Paul to occur on the day of the rapture: 2 Tim 4:8 (NIV): Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

We all long for Jesus appearing to us in the air, after we pass through the clouds in 1 Th 4:17.

 

[keras]

We all long for Jesus appearing to us in the air, after we pass through the clouds in 1 Th 4:17.

Jesus will have departed from heaven and be on His way to Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4
Then He will send out His angels to gather those who have proved their faith by standing firm through all the testing times before then. Matthew 24:30-31
There is not even a hint that we Christians will go to heaven in 1 Thess 4:17, John 14:1-4, or anywhere else in the Bible.

Rapture to heaven believers should seriously reconsider that idea. Having wrong beliefs does not mean a loss of Salvation, but it could mean a loss of rewards and to promote and teach false theories does incur a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

 

[JulieB67]

We all long for Jesus appearing to us in the air, after we pass through the clouds in 1 Th 4:17.

I will repeat this same question. Since you agree this verse below is about the second coming,

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.



These are your words-

Both of those verses use the word "appear." That is not a rapture term.

The rapture is instantaneous. It's not a moment of shame

So why is John telling them (Christians) to abide in him so that when he does appear at the second coming they can have confidence and not be ashamed before him? That wouldn't make sense if were possible they were to be raptured away.

You didn't answer and seemed to backtrack a bit.

 

[com7fy8]

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

Going by what is directly stated in the New Covenant > Jesus Himself says He will appear "Immediately after" (Matthew 24:29-31) the greatest tribulation ever. And His angels will gather His "elect".

But no New Testament author says anything like, "The Lord will return immediately before the great tribulation."

There will be "elect" alive to be gathered at the end of the great tribulation. So, yes our Father is able to take care of us through any tribulation, at all.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I will repeat this same question. Since you agree this verse below is about the second coming,

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.



These are your words-




So why is John telling them (Christians) to abide in him so that when he does appear at the second coming they can have confidence and not be ashamed before him? That wouldn't make sense if were possible they were to be raptured away.

You didn't answer and seemed to backtrack a bit.

You are quoting 2A verses.

Jesus will have departed from heaven and be on His way to Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4
Then He will send out His angels to gather those who have proved their faith by standing firm through all the testing times before then. Matthew 24:30-31
There is not even a hint that we Christians will go to heaven in 1 Thess 4:17, John 14:1-4, or anywhere else in the Bible.

Rapture to heaven believers should seriously reconsider that idea. Having wrong beliefs does not mean a loss of Salvation, but it could mean a loss of rewards and to promote and teach false theories does incur a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

You are mixing 2A verses with rapture verses. That won't work because they are provably separate events. In the 2A, starting with Matt 24:30, Jesus does eventually make His way to Jerusalem for the MK.

1 Th 4:16-17 are about Jesus descending, behind clouds the whole time, raising the dead in Christ and taking them and us to Heaven. John 14:3 says the same things: Jesus comes back, never said to be seen by the whole world, and we go directly to Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I will repeat this same question. Since you agree this verse below is about the second coming,

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.



These are your words-




So why is John telling them (Christians) to abide in him so that when he does appear at the second coming they can have confidence and not be ashamed before him? That wouldn't make sense if were possible they were to be raptured away.

You didn't answer and seemed to backtrack a bit.

First, if a person is saved, they will be raptured. John's advice could be just to continue to do the good you are doing, and grow in the Spirit.

That verse is a close call as to whether it's a rapture verse or a 2A verse. I now think it's a rapture verse. In the 2A, we are with Jesus, in His army, following on white horses (Rev 19:14). We will, in the rapture, be in His physical presence for the first time (1 Th 4:17). John's advice could very well fit that context.

 

[JulieB67]

That verse is a close call as to whether it's a rapture verse or a 2A verse. I now think it's a rapture verse.

Of course you do It's called backtracking. That's what pretribbers have to do -constant mental gymnastics instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

There are no close calls. God is not the author of confusion and neither are the disciples/apostles.

John's advice could be just to continue to do the good you are doing, and grow in the Spirit.

We don't have to speculate on this verse, that's the thing. It's not about this verse "could be".

The verse clearly states that Christians need to abide in him so they will have confidence and need not be ashamed -before him at his coming.

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Sadly many will be ashamed at his coming because they didn't continue to abide in him. That's what the falling away is about. That's why Christ states he never knew them.


And you've just completely changed your tune. You stated that appear is not a rapture term but now all of the sudden it is.

You stated that a rapture is in an instant, there's no time to feel anything like shame. But you've changed on that too.

First, "coming" is not exclusively a 2A term.

It is most definitely exclusively a 2A term.

Paul cites the rapture in 2 Th 2:1

The subject is the Day of Christ which is the 2 advent.

The words- "His coming, the coming of our Lord and so on cannot be applied to both a pretrib rapture or the Second Coming. That's where all the confusion starts when people do this.

It's His coming-singular. But to get around this pretribbers have to state that in the rapture he's not coming really when the scriptures state that's exactly what he does. As you see in 1st John 2:28 he is coming. These verses are not ambiguous. He will appear. Meaning all eyes will see him. To say only those in the clouds will see him is not true. You are inserting that in yourself. Revelation states he comes with clouds and all eyes will see him.

And you're not seeing the simplicity with which Christ teaches on this subject the first time it comes up. The disciples asks for signs of his coming (one singular) and he lays it all out. And states to watch for those signs so that one's house not be broken up. Why do you think he talks about the Foolish Virgins and certain ones he turns away? These are Christians that have "fallen away" The Foolish Virgins are definitely Christians, they are waiting for the bridegroom. Just like many Christians today are waiting for him first.

That's why John states this

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

The only mystery that Paul talks about is that "all are "changed" at the last trump. He never taught a prertrib rapture.

You always state Matthew 24 and 1st Thes :4 are not the same but they are most definitely the same. The exact details don't have to be the same but we can see enough to see that they are. We are dealing with different writers. And we don't have Paul's complete ministry right in front of us. He taught for years and we have a few letters. He also taught this subject more than once in person.

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things

So we have no way of knowing that Paul didn't give more details to line up exactly the events. He tells the Thessalonian that don't even need to be told the signs and seasons (Christians know the signs that Christ brought forth) so of course he doesn't have to lay them out completely again.

But when they got confused and thought that our gathering back together was imminent/could happen any time he writes another letter and nails down the timing. The falling away is for Christians, it's not a disappearance. Again that's why John is stating to abide in him so that one doesn't fall away and will be ashamed at His coming. If we continue to abide in him that won't happen. But all ties together.

And even with a few letters we have enough to connect the dots and see that Paul's teaching is a second witness to Christ teachings. Christ states he has foretold the disciples all things.

And all of the disciples/apostles teach about the Lord's coming. Christ told them to teach all that he told them. And not once does a pretrib rapture come up. Christ would definitely not leave that out.

Peter writes
II Peter 3:11 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

II Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Christians are supposed to look for and eagerly await for this day above which is clearly not a pretrib rapture. That's what hasting means.

You picked out one verse in Revelation that you think describes a pretrib rapture and many of us told you that's not what the Greek word for "keep" means. And before that scripture regardless, we have another church letter that states the devil will throw some into prison.

And John with Christ's Revelation is talking to the churches at the very beginning. A perfect time to talk about a pretrib rapture since this is well after Paul's letters.

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be to you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne"


Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

This is the Revelation of Christ. If a pretrib rapture were true Christ would not leave it out. Instead he's talking about his second advent/coming.

The truth is right there and I pray some day you see it . I'm so relieved that as a pretribber myself still over 20 years ago that when I first read the bible in it's entirety I was able to see the truth the first time. We have to take the bible as a whole. And if we do than we can see that this very verse is true.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Of course you do It's called backtracking. That's what pretribbers have to do -constant mental gymnastics instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

There are no close calls. God is not the author of confusion and neither are the disciples/apostles.


We don't have to speculate on this verse, that's the thing. It's not about this verse "could be".

The verse clearly states that Christians need to abide in him so they will have confidence and need not be ashamed -before him at his coming.

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Sadly many will be ashamed at his coming because they didn't continue to abide in him. That's what the falling away is about. That's why Christ states he never knew them.


And you've just completely changed your tune. You stated that appear is not a rapture term but now all of the sudden it is.

You stated that a rapture is in an instant, there's no time to feel anything like shame. But you've changed on that too.


It is most definitely exclusively a 2A term.


The subject is the Day of Christ which is the 2 advent.

The words- "His coming, the coming of our Lord and so on cannot be applied to both a pretrib rapture or the Second Coming. That's where all the confusion starts when people do this.

It's His coming-singular. But to get around this pretribbers have to state that in the rapture he's not coming really when the scriptures state that's exactly what he does. As you see in 1st John 2:28 he is coming. These verses are not ambiguous. He will appear. Meaning all eyes will see him. To say only those in the clouds will see him is not true. You are inserting that in yourself. Revelation states he comes with clouds and all eyes will see him.

And you're not seeing the simplicity with which Christ teaches on this subject the first time it comes up. The disciples asks for signs of his coming (one singular) and he lays it all out. And states to watch for those signs so that one's house not be broken up. Why do you think he talks about the Foolish Virgins and certain ones he turns away? These are Christians that have "fallen away" The Foolish Virgins are definitely Christians, they are waiting for the bridegroom. Just like many Christians today are waiting for him first.

That's why John states this

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

The only mystery that Paul talks about is that "all are "changed" at the last trump. He never taught a prertrib rapture.

You always state Matthew 24 and 1st Thes :4 are not the same but they are most definitely the same. The exact details don't have to be the same but we can see enough to see that they are. We are dealing with different writers. And we don't have Paul's complete ministry right in front of us. He taught for years and we have a few letters. He also taught this subject more than once in person.

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things

So we have no way of knowing that Paul didn't give more details to line up exactly the events. He tells the Thessalonian that don't even need to be told the signs and seasons (Christians know the signs that Christ brought forth) so of course he doesn't have to lay them out completely again.

But when they got confused and thought that our gathering back together was imminent/could happen any time he writes another letter and nails down the timing. The falling away is for Christians, it's not a disappearance. Again that's why John is stating to abide in him so that one doesn't fall away and will be ashamed at His coming. If we continue to abide in him that won't happen. But all ties together.

And even with a few letters we have enough to connect the dots and see that Paul's teaching is a second witness to Christ teachings. Christ states he has foretold the disciples all things.

And all of the disciples/apostles teach about the Lord's coming. Christ told them to teach all that he told them. And not once does a pretrib rapture come up. Christ would definitely not leave that out.

Peter writes
II Peter 3:11 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

II Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Christians are supposed to look for and eagerly await for this day above which is clearly not a pretrib rapture. That's what hasting means.

You picked out one verse in Revelation that you think describes a pretrib rapture and many of us told you that's not what the Greek word for "keep" means. And before that scripture regardless, we have another church letter that states the devil will throw some into prison.

And John with Christ's Revelation is talking to the churches at the very beginning. A perfect time to talk about a pretrib rapture since this is well after Paul's letters.

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be to you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne"


Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

This is the Revelation of Christ. If a pretrib rapture were true Christ would not leave it out. Instead he's talking about his second advent/coming.

The truth is right there and I pray some day you see it . I'm so relieved that as a pretribber myself still over 20 years ago that when I first read the bible in it's entirety I was able to see the truth the first time. We have to take the bible as a whole. And if we do than we can see that this very verse is true.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Julie, 2 Th 2:1 is about the rapture because it's about Jesus coming and INSTANTLY rapturing us. 2 Th 2:1 (ESV): Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

"Our being gathered together to him" is the same rapture in John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Here is John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ... ---- There, again, Jesus will come and instantly rapture us to Heaven.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend ... 17 we ... will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

All three of those verses are about Jesus coming and INSTANTLY rapturing us to Heaven, because they are about the same pre-Trib rapture.

You are nitpicking over what is potentially a rapture or 2A verse. I acknowledged I could be wrong. It's very difficult to say one way or another on some of those verses.

 

[keras]

"Our being gathered together to him" is the same rapture in John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Here is John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ... ---- There, again, Jesus will come and instantly rapture us to Heaven.

NONE of those verses actually say what you promote. Heaven is never mentioned, except as the place Jesus comes from.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a false teaching, a pretentious idea, which Jesus said was impossible. Believing it is a serious mistake and may cause much difficulty as the end time events commence.
The Lord will mightily reward those who have the moral fortitude to renounce any unscriptural teachings.

2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past there were false prophets and now there are false teachers among you. They will gain many adherents to their destructive theories, bringing the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed for money, they will trade on peoples credulity with sheer fabrications.

Isaiah 51:4-8 Listen to Me, My people, My instruction will shine forth from Me and My judgement will dawn upon you. In an instant the sky will be dispersed like smoke, the earth will become tattered and torn and many people will die, but you who keep My Laws – do not fear your enemies, do not let their reviling dismay you. For My saving power is unbroken and My Deliverance will be everlasting.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

NONE of those verses actually say what you promote. Heaven is never mentioned, except as the place Jesus comes from.
The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a false teaching, a pretentious idea, which Jesus said was impossible. Believing it is a serious mistake and may cause much difficulty as the end time events commence.
The Lord will mightily reward those who have the moral fortitude to renounce any unscriptural teachings.

2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past there were false prophets and now there are false teachers among you. They will gain many adherents to their destructive theories, bringing the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed for money, they will trade on peoples credulity with sheer fabrications.

Isaiah 51:4-8 Listen to Me, My people, My instruction will shine forth from Me and My judgement will dawn upon you. In an instant the sky will be dispersed like smoke, the earth will become tattered and torn and many people will die, but you who keep My Laws – do not fear your enemies, do not let their reviling dismay you. For My saving power is unbroken and My Deliverance will be everlasting.

Keras, these verses all say the same thing: I will come again ... and our being gathered / will take you / will be caught up / was lifted up / Come up here!

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): ... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... 17 Then we ... will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

Jesus was raptured into Heaven in Acts 1:9-11 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Apostle John was raptured into Heaven BEFORE he was shown the events of the 7-year Trib. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

What will Jesus likely shout, as He starts the rapture in 1 Th 4:16? Could be: "Come up here!"

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Of course you do It's called backtracking. That's what pretribbers have to do -constant mental gymnastics instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

There are no close calls. God is not the author of confusion and neither are the disciples/apostles.


We don't have to speculate on this verse, that's the thing. It's not about this verse "could be".

The verse clearly states that Christians need to abide in him so they will have confidence and need not be ashamed -before him at his coming.

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Sadly many will be ashamed at his coming because they didn't continue to abide in him. That's what the falling away is about. That's why Christ states he never knew them.


And you've just completely changed your tune. You stated that appear is not a rapture term but now all of the sudden it is.

You stated that a rapture is in an instant, there's no time to feel anything like shame. But you've changed on that too.


It is most definitely exclusively a 2A term.


The subject is the Day of Christ which is the 2 advent.

The words- "His coming, the coming of our Lord and so on cannot be applied to both a pretrib rapture or the Second Coming. That's where all the confusion starts when people do this.

It's His coming-singular. But to get around this pretribbers have to state that in the rapture he's not coming really when the scriptures state that's exactly what he does. As you see in 1st John 2:28 he is coming. These verses are not ambiguous. He will appear. Meaning all eyes will see him. To say only those in the clouds will see him is not true. You are inserting that in yourself. Revelation states he comes with clouds and all eyes will see him.

And you're not seeing the simplicity with which Christ teaches on this subject the first time it comes up. The disciples asks for signs of his coming (one singular) and he lays it all out. And states to watch for those signs so that one's house not be broken up. Why do you think he talks about the Foolish Virgins and certain ones he turns away? These are Christians that have "fallen away" The Foolish Virgins are definitely Christians, they are waiting for the bridegroom. Just like many Christians today are waiting for him first.

That's why John states this

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

The only mystery that Paul talks about is that "all are "changed" at the last trump. He never taught a prertrib rapture.

You always state Matthew 24 and 1st Thes :4 are not the same but they are most definitely the same. The exact details don't have to be the same but we can see enough to see that they are. We are dealing with different writers. And we don't have Paul's complete ministry right in front of us. He taught for years and we have a few letters. He also taught this subject more than once in person.

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things

So we have no way of knowing that Paul didn't give more details to line up exactly the events. He tells the Thessalonian that don't even need to be told the signs and seasons (Christians know the signs that Christ brought forth) so of course he doesn't have to lay them out completely again.

But when they got confused and thought that our gathering back together was imminent/could happen any time he writes another letter and nails down the timing. The falling away is for Christians, it's not a disappearance. Again that's why John is stating to abide in him so that one doesn't fall away and will be ashamed at His coming. If we continue to abide in him that won't happen. But all ties together.

And even with a few letters we have enough to connect the dots and see that Paul's teaching is a second witness to Christ teachings. Christ states he has foretold the disciples all things.

And all of the disciples/apostles teach about the Lord's coming. Christ told them to teach all that he told them. And not once does a pretrib rapture come up. Christ would definitely not leave that out.

Peter writes
II Peter 3:11 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

II Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Christians are supposed to look for and eagerly await for this day above which is clearly not a pretrib rapture. That's what hasting means.

You picked out one verse in Revelation that you think describes a pretrib rapture and many of us told you that's not what the Greek word for "keep" means. And before that scripture regardless, we have another church letter that states the devil will throw some into prison.

And John with Christ's Revelation is talking to the churches at the very beginning. A perfect time to talk about a pretrib rapture since this is well after Paul's letters.

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be to you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne"


Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

This is the Revelation of Christ. If a pretrib rapture were true Christ would not leave it out. Instead he's talking about his second advent/coming.

The truth is right there and I pray some day you see it . I'm so relieved that as a pretribber myself still over 20 years ago that when I first read the bible in it's entirety I was able to see the truth the first time. We have to take the bible as a whole. And if we do than we can see that this very verse is true.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

These verses all say the same thing. The subject in each, is the rapture: I will come again ... and our being gathered / will take you / will be caught up / was lifted up / Come up here!

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): ... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... 17 Then we ... will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

Jesus was raptured into Heaven in Acts 1:9-11 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Apostle John was raptured into Heaven BEFORE he was shown the events of the 7-year Trib. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

 

[keras]

these verses all say the same thing: I will come again ... and our being gathered / will take you / will be caught up / was lifted up /

I repeat: NONE of them, or any scripture says that humans will go to live in heaven.
Where we Christians will go to is all of the holy land. That is our destiny and our great Promise. If you reject this truth and are unable to change your beliefs, then the end times will be hard for you.

What will Jesus likely shout, as He starts the rapture in 1 Th 4:16? Could be: "Come up here!"

When Jesus Returns, He has departed from heaven. He sends His angels to gather those who remain alive and they all go to Jerusalem, where Jesus will rule the world from, for the next thousand years.
This is the Biblical, logical and definitive truth. Ay other idea, theory or fanciful notion, is false and a Satanic lie.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I repeat: NONE of them, or any scripture says that humans will go to live in heaven.
Where we Christians will go to is all of the holy land. That is our destiny and our great Promise. If you reject this truth and are unable to change your beliefs, then the end times will be hard for you.

When Jesus Returns, He has departed from heaven. He sends His angels to gather those who remain alive and they all go to Jerusalem, where Jesus will rule the world from, for the next thousand years.
This is the Biblical, logical and definitive truth. Ay other idea, theory or fanciful notion, is false and a Satanic lie.

The giant hole in your statement is the trumpet in Matt 24:31 sounds only once, to send out His angels to gather the elect. That trumpet fulfills its sole purpose in doing that. You do not account for the trumpet that raises the dead in Christ. It can't be the same trumpet in v31 for it is sounded only once. You see? You naysayers to the pre-Trib rapture all have holes in your alternatives to the pre-Trib rapture.

You are misunderstanding what those verses say about going to Heaven. Mainly, we cannot get there on our own power. Otherwise, it is not time for us to go to Heaven. In the rapture, it is clearly time to go to Heaven.

 

[JulieB67]

When Jesus Returns, He has departed from heaven

Exactly

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): ... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... 17 Then we ... will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

Any time you see the words coming of our Lord it is talking about the second advent. You cannot apply those words to both a pretrib rapture and the second coming. Can you not see that makes no sense whatsoever? You can't just pick and choose which verse you want to apply to a pretrib rapture. Which you already tried to do with 1st John 2:28. The word "coming" implies just that. He's coming. He's descending from Heaven and we will be meeting the Lord. John tells the churches that he cometh with clouds and all eyes see him. To say otherwise would be adding to the word.

And why would Christ leave out something so important in Matthew 24 if a pretrib rapture were possible? After the disciples as for when and what will be the signs be about "his coming"? What coming is that? The coming of our Lord Jesus. It's as simple as that. One more coming -His.


Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

That's the gathering back together that Paul talks about. No two writers usually give the exact same description. But just like the gospels, Paul is describing the same event. Usually when you have the same account written by different people, you will get an even more rounded picture.

You do not account for the trumpet that raises the dead in Christ.

Christ did not have to talk about the dead. Gathering his elect (all in Christ) from one end of heaven to another is sufficient enough in that instance. The reason Paul brought up the dead in Christ was because that was the original subject in his letter to them starting with 1st 4:13. He was trying to comfort them and stated that they would be included. That's why he's coming from it at that angle and why it's worded different or do you not know the original subject? It's still the same "coming of the Lord". Those words alone again tells us that this is the Second Coming/Advent.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

Same trumpet

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

That trumpet fulfills its sole purpose in doing that.

It does not state that.

Christ states when talking about the tribulation-

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

He doesn't tell them they will be raptured away. He just laid out the tribulation and states after these things pass, then you can look up..

He also states during this time-

Luke 21:19 "In your patience possess ye your souls."

That's what's going to get you through, not some pretrib rapture. Patience to wait on the Lord and abide in him so that one not be ashamed before him at his coming. That's the truth. That's what's written. There are no holes, just scripture.

John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

Again, this is not a pretrib rapture


John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Mansion in the Greek is mone

3438 a staying i.e. residence (the act or the place) abode, mansion.

Where do we abide at this moment? In Christ. That's what he's talking about. The Holy Spirit/the comforter

We have to read this entire passage to get the context.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto Him, "Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Thomas is asking him how can we know the way, but Christ doesn't talk about a rapture to Heaven he continues-

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

He's talking about he way to the Father is through him. He's not talking about a pretrib rapture.

John 14:7 "If ye had know Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 41:9 "Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father' "

John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the Works."

John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake."

John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it."

John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever

This is what Christ is talking about. The word abide has the same prime root as mansion/mone -meaning a stay.


John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Dwelleth and abide are the same Greek word. It all goes back to mansion/mone.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also."

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."

This verse goes back to verse 3. We are in him as he is in us.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

It's about making our abode with him and he with us. The disciples didn't start asking questions about a pretrib rapture to Heaven. The discussion did not pertain to that at all. Context is very important.


Once he does descends from Heaven, then it is the time for the restitution of "all things" A pretrib rapture doesn't fit there at all. Restitution means restore. He will come and usher in that restoration. He will not leave Heaven before that time. Acts 3:21 it is written.