VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[WilliamLhk]

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. ​

Immediately following that passage, we do have some indication of the timing of this event from this one. First, it tells us that the day of the Lord comes without warning, "as a thief in the night". This would preclude the post-tribulational rapture, because there is ample precursor events that point to the 2nd coming of Christ being immanent. The same could be said for the pre-wrath rapture,

You misread what it really says: that it only comes as a thief for those who are in darkness. Not for those in light.

 

[WilliamLhk]

We learn a few things from this passage. We learn that no man knows the day or hour...

...but it does NOT say no one will ever know the day or hour. Please don't add your presumptions into the Word.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

 

[keras]

It will be sudden and unexpected, but preceding it will be normal living conditions per Matthew 24:36-39 and Luke 17:26-30. The Great Tribulation with all it's judgements is not normal living conditions.

Exactly correct.

That is only the sixth seal, there are still the trumpet and bowl judgements to come. The day of the Lord encompasses more than one single judgement.

The one day event of the Sixth Seal is the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16b
The Great Trib is the wrath of God. Revelation 15:1

This is primarily speaking of Jerusalem's deliverance from the Assyrians (Isaiah 36-37). It could have eschatological overtones, though... then it would be speaking of the 2nd coming of our Lord described in Revelation 19.

It is plainly obvious that all of Isaiah 29 remains unfulfilled. Isaiah 29:9-12 is happening now, as evidenced by the confusions and delusions of some.
Jesus does NOT Return in devouring fire.

This could be speaking of the cross.

The guilt of the Holy Land in Zech 3:9, refers to the rejection of Jesus and of the true God, in all of the Holy Land area.

The fall of eschatological Babylon referenced in Revelation 18. This will indeed happen at or immediately preceding the return of Jesus Christ

Revelation 18:1-24 is a Prophecy which must occur before Jesus Returns.
I see it as part of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. It is a flashback, with further details of the Lords Day of fiery wrath.

Just because certain events will happen, or have happened, in a single day does not mean that the prophesied day of the Lord is a single day and not a prolonged period of time.

Why make for confusion? The great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath will last for just one literal day. Any longer and nothing would survive on earth.
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, are never referred to as a 'day'. They happen during the final 3 1/2 years.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Revelation 7:14 mentions those who have passed through the great ordeal....
Which must refer to the Sixth Seal event. Unless you want to shuffle Revelation...not advisable!

"Great ordeal" is generally translated "great tribulation, just as it is in Matthew 24, to which it refers.

You are fairly alone in thinking the 7 Bowl is not part of the Great Trib.

Not really; and whether or not I am is irrelevant to the truth.

 

[Oseas]

...but it does NOT say no one will ever know the day or hour. Please don't add your presumptions into the Word.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

We know not the day or the hour wherein JESUS comes, but GOD has given us a clue in what moment this day arrives. The man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished-Daniel 12:7.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days-Dan.12:12-,Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!!

Daniel 12:11 - From the time that the DAILY SACRIFICE shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.-
And from the time that the DAILY SACRIFICE shall be taken away (Jesus' sacrifice has already lasted around 737.000 days, and now will be taken away-2Thessalonians 2:5-13. Take a look.), and the Abomination that makes desolate set up(in the midst of the last week of years), there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (i.e. 1260 days plus 30 days. END of this current world of Devil, and there will be more a gap of 45 days)

12 Blessed is he that waiteth,and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (45 days after the END of the Abomination of Desolation). - GET READY -
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand-Daniel 12:10. -

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen

Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

The Jewish calendar is the type of calendar that the Jewish people use for counting time and commemorating birthdays, festivities, weddings, deaths, religious celebrations and other solemnities. According to the Hebrews, the years are counted from what they believe to be the creation of Adam...

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[JulieB67]

You seem to be so wrapped up in denying a pre-tribulational rapture

I believed in a pretrib rapture for most of my life until 20 or so years ago. So if it were biblical, I would certainly have no problems believing it. It was actually on a message board not unlike this one that I first saw someone post that it was not. And I started studying for myself. I certainly wouldn't drop a belief that I've had most of my life if it really thought it were true. But just reading the bible from beginning to end and pointing to verses like Hebrew 9:28, and Acts 3:21 as well as verses all pointing to a "coming of the Lord" singular it seems very clear. And warnings against deception by both Christ and Paul on this subject also factor in and so on. I never saw anything that even resembled that anyone was raptured to "heaven". I can't take one verse, 1st (4:17) I have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse just like any other book. But I agree, it's pointless to continue.
I did continue a little here I realize but that's because I wanted to say I am not so wrapped up in denying a pretrib rapture. I once believed as well. I had to do a lot of soul searching and needless to say I've learned a lot about false doctrines/indocrination over time. And I realize that's why were told to study to show ourselves approved. We cannot leave it to man. It's good to have teachers but those teachers have to be backed up.

 

[Oseas]

I believed in a pretrib rapture for most of my life until 20 or so years ago. So if it were biblical, I would certainly have no problems believing it. It was actually on a message board not unlike this one that I first saw someone post that it was not. And I started studying for myself. I certainly wouldn't drop a belief that I've had most of my life if it really thought it were true. But just reading the bible from beginning to end and pointing to verses like Hebrew 9:28, and Acts 3:21 as well as verses all pointing to a "coming of the Lord" singular it seems very clear. And warnings against deception by both Christ and Paul on this subject also factor in and so on. I never saw anything that even resembled that anyone was raptured to "heaven". I can't take one verse, 1st (4:17) I have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse just like any other book. But I agree, it's pointless to continue.
I did continue a little here I realize but that's because I wanted to say I am not so wrapped up in denying a pretrib rapture. I once believed as well. I had to do a lot of soul searching and needless to say I've learned a lot about false doctrines/indocrination over time. And I realize that's why were told to study to show ourselves approved. We cannot leave it to man. It's good to have teachers but those teachers have to be backed up.

You said 20 years ago?

Time is ticking, ticking, ticking; see, don't sleep, but if you're already asleep, wake up, and take in mind that each passing day we are personally closer to JESUS.See how near He is. See, it is certain that the day of JESUS 'return is very very close. In my understanding it is the mysterious day 1,335, i.e. 45 days after the end of the Abomination of Desolation of 1,290 days as was prophesied by Daniel. Daniel 12:v.11 combined with Daniel 9:v.27, both verses direct us to the majestic and indescribable event of JESUS's return.

We are going to meet JESUS, and He is coming to meet us, in time and space. So, each day that passes, He gets a little closer of the meeting point, and we who are in the way also get a little closer to Him, and the gap between us and JESUS decreases, and the moment will come when JESUS and we will arrive at the indicated time, in place and space, as He combined with us, i.e. to be at the exact time and place of the glorious meeting. Hallelujah! JESUS said: John 14:1-4:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in GOD, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so,I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Mat.25:v.6
At midnight there was a cry made,Behold,the bridegroom comes;go ye out to meet Him. -It is necessary to have initiative-

Revelaation 19:5 & 7to9
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our GOD, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
8 And ... was granted that ... should be arrayed in fine linen,clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9... Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. ...These are the true sayings of GOD.

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great harlot, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

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Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

 

[keras]

"Great ordeal" is generally translated "great tribulation, just as it is in Matthew 24, to which it refers.

The great ordeal, Revelation 7:14, as translated in my REBible, cannot refer to the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, as they will take place later, during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. As Matthew 24:29 says.
Proved by; at the Return the moon does not give any light, whereas at the Sixth Seal; the moon glows blood red. Joel 2:30-31

It must refer to the Sixth Seal, the worldwide disaster which will commence all the end times things until the glorious Return.
Note that this great ordeal is before the Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1

Not really; and whether or not I am is irrelevant to the truth.

The truth is that the Seventh Bowl is at the Battle of Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18
The final and ultimate destruction of the ungodly peoples, who will have been punished by the previous Trumpets and Bowls.

 

[WilliamLhk]

The great ordeal, Revelation 7:14, as translated in my REBible, cannot refer to the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls,

Nothing in Revelation ever says that the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation; which is never again mentioned after Rev. 7:14, still during the time of the Seals.

as they will take place later, during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. As Matthew 24:29 says.

Again, Matthew says no such thing; doesn't mention anything about the 3-1/2 times. Pure projection on your part.

 

[keras]

Nothing in Revelation ever says that the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation; which is never again mentioned after Rev. 7:14, still during the time of the Seals.

Again, Matthew says no such thing; doesn't mention anything about the 3-1/2 times. Pure projection on your part.

You seem to have the idea that every Prophecy must tell the whole story. But it isn't like that, as Isaiah 28:13 tells us: A little here, a little there.
Jesus said there would be great tribulation, just before He Returns. Matthew 24:21 & 27-30
Revelation mentions that final period in 3 ways: 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years.

Your retorts display intransigence and a determination to reject plainly stated Bible Prophecy.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Your retorts display intransigence and a determination to reject plainly stated Bible Prophecy.

Which plainly state Bible prophecy only you seem to be able to see.

 

[Oseas]

We all must preach ”what matters is that we are prepared” to meet JESUS-Matthew 25:6-13, and also He meeting us according as He combined with us-John 14:1-4. Take a look.
We must preach more than never to the people to wake up and to arise fast, remembering that among several things it is necessary to have lamp(indeed the Word is a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path-Psalm 119:105) and oil, because WITHOUT OIL even those which have lamp will perish, it’s impressive.

What and were is the source of oil? It was revealed to the prophet Zechariah, one of the twenty four elders, as follow: Ze. 4:1-6 and 11-14KJV
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a CANDLESTICK all of gold(Candlestick is Church), with a bowl upon the top of it(upon the top of the Church), and his seven lamps thereon(seven spirits of GOD), and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it(by the Church), one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. (JESUS and the Paraclete-the Comfort-John 15:26 and 16:12-15, and also two Covenants – the Old and New Testaments).
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the Word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel(the Word is GOD, GOD is Spirit), saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick(Church) and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches(SOURCE OF THE OIL) which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Hallelujaaaah!!!

Gety ready

 

[oikonomia]

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

Of course YES.
And of course it is better to be among the Firstruits (Rev. 14:1-5) to ripen early than to be of the Harvest (Rev. 14:14-16) who ripen only through the intense heat of the great tribulation.

Either way God and only God gets all the glory.

Some may want to visit my thread on "A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation".

 

[keras]

of course it is better to be among the Firstruits (Rev. 14:1-5)

Jesus is standing on Mt Zion with the 144,000, on earth. Proved by how they hear the Voice from heaven.

Just another wrong pre-trib rapture to heaven attempt to prove that fable.
Beats me how anyone can think they could go to heaven before any kind of testing or the Judgment.

 

[Oseas]

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great harlot, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

purebibleforum.com

 

[keras]

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

Those found worthy will meet Jesus in the clouds, that is; in the earths atmosphere.
As Jesus has departed from heaven and is on His way to Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:3, it is there where will be with Him; for the next thousand years.

Humans going to live in heaven is never said to happen. Eventually God and heaven come to us, Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Oseas]

Those found WORTHY will meet Jesus in the clouds, that is; in the earths atmosphere.
As Jesus has departed from heaven and is on His way to Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:3, it is there where will be with Him; for the next thousand years.

Humans going to live in heaven is never said to happen. Eventually God and heaven come to us, Revelation 21:1-7

Your literal and materialist interpretation of Scripture is good for nothing, your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumbling block-Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective-Matthew 16:23.

What matters and prevails is what my Lord JESUS said. What does JESUS say? Luke 20:35KJV -
They which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world(next world-GOD's Kingdom-Revelation 11:15), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: (The man nature will be changed-Philippians 3:20-21 combined with 1Corinthians 15:24-26 and 51-55 among other biblical references. It will not be a magic, but a work-John 5:17-, indeed a PROCESS / PROCEDURE, understand?)

According Jewish translation. What does JESUS say? - Luke 20:35-36CJB
34 Yeshua said to them, “In this age(in this current world of Devil, now the red Dragon-Rev elation 12:9), men and women marry;
35 but those Judged WORTHY of the age to come (next world to be established-GOD's Kingdom-Revelation 11:15,indeed the 3rd heaven, heavenly place in Christ-Ephesians 1:3-8), and of resurrection from the dead, do not get married,
36 because they can no longer die. Being children of the Resurrection, they are like angels; indeed, they are children of GOD.

Be careful or else get ready

My Lord JESUS said: Luke 13:24-25: --> 24 Many will be demanding to get in and won’t be able to, 25 once the owner of the house has gotten up and shut the door. You will stand outside, knocking at the door and saying, ‘Lord! Open up for us!’ But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from!’

Matthew 25:6-12
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.
...
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But He answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

 

[Micmac]

No the believers remain in the clouds with Jesus, till the tribulation is over. Then they return with Jesus back to earth, for the 1000 year rule of Jesus on earth

Christian don't return back to earth. That's another 'rapture' misunderstanding. Only angels return with Christ.

There are disagreements over who the "saints" are that Jesus comes back with at his return. Pre-trib believers say it includes resurrected and raptured people who were raptured before the tribulation. Some post-trib believers think the resurrection happens while Jesus returns in the clouds after the tribulation, AND the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. Both of these theories are false. It's not that difficult to see that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are ONLY His holy angels.

Jesus returns with all his Saints.

ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives...

5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the SAINTS with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all...

Here are a few issues - NOT ALL!

First, the righteous dead who will rise at the rapture are all raised on the LAST DAY! not 7 YEARS BEFORE. (John 6:39-40; 6:44; 6:54; 11:24).

Second, it would mean that Jesus has to come at least three times in all, once to suffer and die, once to translate (or rapture) the church before the tribulation, and again on the last day for Armageddon.

Nowhere does scripture teach a third coming of Jesus. On the contrary. The Parousia is mentioned 4 times in Mathew 24 in V.3, 27, 37, and 39.

PAROUSIA is also 'singular' in 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:1), 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 John 2:28). Notice they are all in the singular!

These scriptures show Jesus is coming back with his "saints." The big question is, "who are the saints"?

I believe they are ANGELS.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Christian don't return back to earth. That's another 'rapture' misunderstanding. Only angels return with Christ.

There are disagreements over who the "saints" are that Jesus comes back with at his return. Pre-trib believers say it includes resurrected and raptured people who were raptured before the tribulation. Some post-trib believers think the resurrection happens while Jesus returns in the clouds after the tribulation, AND the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. Both of these theories are false. It's not that difficult to see that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are ONLY His holy angels.

Jesus returns with all his Saints.

ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives...

5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the SAINTS with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all...

Here are a few issues - NOT ALL!

First, the righteous dead who will rise at the rapture are all raised on the LAST DAY! not 7 YEARS BEFORE. (John 6:39-40; 6:44; 6:54; 11:24).

Second, it would mean that Jesus has to come at least three times in all, once to suffer and die, once to translate (or rapture) the church before the tribulation, and again on the last day for Armageddon.

Nowhere does scripture teach a third coming of Jesus. On the contrary. The Parousia is mentioned 4 times in Mathew 24 in V.3, 27, 37, and 39.

PAROUSIA is also 'singular' in 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:1), 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 John 2:28). Notice they are all in the singular!

These scriptures show Jesus is coming back with his "saints." The big question is, "who are the saints"?

I believe they are ANGELS.

Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven with his angels to take up His Church at His Parousia. He later comes with His resurrected and perfected immortal saints to fight the Battle of Armageddon on earth.

Those saints are "having been clothed [Greek Perfect participle] in fine linen." Rev. 19:14 Angels don't have a time when they are "having been clothed." But the saints will, as the NT tells us in different places, such as

Rev. 3:5 “He who overcomes shall be clothed [Greek Future indicative] in white garments..."

 

[keras]

Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven with his angels to take up His Church at His Parousia. He later comes with His resurrected and perfected immortal saints to fight the Battle of Armageddon on earth.

This is a figment of a vivid imagination. It isn't scriptural.
Immortality is not given to anyone until the final Judgment, after the Millennium.