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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

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Vambram

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Yes.

I believe that the Rapture of the Church shall happen before the Tribulation that is prophesized in the Book of Revelation.
 
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HIM

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Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this
No it does not.
 
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keras

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Yes. To deny this doctrine brings up a host of contradictions regarding Jesus Christ's return.
But if a doctrine is not sustained or supported by scripture and has to be made by assumptions and speculation, then to believe it is a mistake. Especially when Jesus Himself said many times that such a thing as humans going to live in heaven, was impossible.

People should consider the alternative to a rapture, the many Prophesies which tell us what the Lord actually plans for His faithful peoples. They are seen acclaiming the Lord, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Revelation 7:9
When a huge army comes down from the North, He will destroy them in order to show us His power. Ezekiel 38:23
And when the Anti-Christ 'beast' takes world control, He will fly all those who kept their trust in Him who refused to agree to a peace treaty with the AC, to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

Then, when Jesus Returns, He will send out His angels to gather them and all who remain alive by then, 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31
 
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L.A.M.B.

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No such truth to a pre-rapture.

Matthew 24:27-33

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And HE shall send his angels WITH THE GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
 
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food4thought

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But if a doctrine is not sustained or supported by scripture and has to be made by assumptions and speculation, then to believe it is a mistake.
I agree.
Especially when Jesus Himself said many times that such a thing as humans going to live in heaven, was impossible.
There was this guy named John who wrote a book, and he was caught up to heaven (Revelation 4:1-2). Then we have the souls of those who were martyred for their faith in heaven (Revelation 6:9-11). It is obvious that Jesus was not saying that humans do not go to heaven, but that no human but Christ could ASCEND to heaven on their own merit.
People should consider the alternative to a rapture, the many Prophesies which tell us what the Lord actually plans for His faithful peoples. They are seen acclaiming the Lord, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Revelation 7:9
When a huge army comes down from the North, He will destroy them in order to show us His power. Ezekiel 38:23
And when the Anti-Christ 'beast' takes world control, He will fly all those who kept their trust in Him who refused to agree to a peace treaty with the AC, to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

Then, when Jesus Returns, He will send out His angels to gather them and all who remain alive by then, 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31
There will be those who come to faith after the rapture and during the tribulation (Revelation 7:9-17).
 
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keras

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There will be those who come to faith after the rapture and during the tribulation (Revelation 7:9-17).
Assumption and speculation.

Revelation 7:9-13 is about those who stood strong in their faith and trusted the Lord for protection during the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will have just happened.
Revelation 7:14-17 is a Prophecy about Eternity, after the Millennium. Proved by how it will be then that God will wipe away every tear, Revelation 21:4
 
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Antonio39

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so now that everyone has said what they believe can they prove it; and I don't mean quoting one scripture; layout why you believe, what you believe; not by appealing to what we think is right or wrong; but rather some scriptural proof!
 
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WilliamLhk

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so now that everyone has said what they believe can they prove it; and I don't mean quoting one scripture; layout why you believe, what you believe; not by appealing to what we think is right or wrong; but rather some scriptural proof!
I can and have shown the pre-wrath, post trib rapture in many blogs. Here it is shown by an examination of the NT use of the term Parousia:

The Parousia of the Son of Man

The Greek term παρουσíα/parousia has become a stumbling block to many in the modern Church, particularly so among those who teach a pre-tribulation rapture. However, Jesus and His disciples were consistent in its use, as this study will show.

Parousia is a noun, derived from the present participle of the verb pareimi, which is a compound word: para/“near” + eimi/“to be, to exist.” Therefore, parousia literally means “a being near,” but is generally interpreted as “presence/coming/advent.” This wordʼs first New Testament use is found in Matthew 24:3 :

…the disciples came to [Jesus] privately, saying…“what will be the sign of Your parousia, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus then gave them His Mount of Olives discourse about the initial events of the end of the age, those events including the Abomination of Desolation (24:15) and the Great Tribulation (24:21). He then said,

Matthew 24:27 “For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines unto the west, so also will be the parousia of the Son of Man. … 30 …the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Jesus then went on to explain that “that Day” of “the parousia of the Son of Man” (24:36-39) will be as unexpected to the worldʼs inhabitants as was the universal judgment of the Noahic Deluge to the people of its day.

* * *​

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul explains that the resurrection of the dead will come at the parousia of Christ:

15:21 …by Man [Jesus] also comes the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruit, afterward those who are Christʼs at His parousia.

* * *

Paulʼs broadest description of the parousia of the Lord and its associated events is found in his Epistles to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in front of our Lord Jesus Christ at His parousia?

3:13 …may [Jesus] establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring together with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

5:23 …may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the above passages, Paul tells us that the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture/catching up of the saints in Christ into the clouds, will take place at His parousia. In 2 Thessalonians 2, he provides us more details about the events and the timing of that day:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now brethren, concerning the parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by word or by letter, as if through us, as though the Day of Christ [alt., of the Lord] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasia comes first, and the Man of Sin [alt., Lawlessness] is revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the sanctuary/holy place of God, exhibiting himself that he is a god. … 8 … this Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His parousia.

* * *

The apostle Peter also prophesied about the parousia of the Lord:

2 Peter 3:3 …scoffers will come in the Last Days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His parousia? … 10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat… 11 Therefore…what manner of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the parousia of the Day of God…?

* * *

The above passages of Scripture, taken together in their context, testify the following things about “the parousia of the Son of Man”:

1) The parousia will be preceded by the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, false christs, wars, famines and pestilences; and thereafter signs in the heavens and cataclysms on earth. Matt. 24:3-31.; much of which is mirrored in Rev. 6:1-14. And also preceded by the apostasia, and the coming of the Son of Perdition/Lawless One. 2 Thes. 2:1-4, 8

2) The parousia will be concurrent with the resurrection of the dead, the gathering together of the believing saints by the angels of heaven, and these saints being caught up/raptured into the clouds of heaven. Matt. 24:30-31; 1 Cor. 15:21-23; 1 Thes 2:19; 3:13; 4:14-17

3) The parousia is called the Day of Christ/of the Lord/of God/of His [the Lambʼs] Wrath. 2 Thes. 2:1-2; 2 Pet. 3:10, 12; Rev. 6:17 However, although the events noted in #2 above will occur within one 24-hour day, the designations “Day of the Lord” etc. also bespeak of a heavenly-originated period of judgment that will extend many days and years beyond this one 24-hour day. This is evident from Revelation 6:15-17, the events of which take place immediately after the heavenly and earthly signs that portend the parousia:

Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said, “Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the Great Day of His [alt., Their] Wrath has come…”

That era of wrath will include all of the events foretold and described up through the end of Revelation 19. It will conclude with Jesus “treading the winepress of the anger and wrath of Almighty God” during His battle with and defeat of the gathered “Beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies” at the Battle of Armageddon. Rev. 19:15, 19; 16:16
 
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Antonio39

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I can and have shown the pre-wrath, post trib rapture in many blogs. Here it is shown by an examination of the NT use of the term Parousia:

The Parousia of the Son of Man

The Greek term παρουσíα/parousia has become a stumbling block to many in the modern Church, particularly so among those who teach a pre-tribulation rapture. However, Jesus and His disciples were consistent in its use, as this study will show.

Parousia is a noun, derived from the present participle of the verb pareimi, which is a compound word: para/“near” + eimi/“to be, to exist.” Therefore, parousia literally means “a being near,” but is generally interpreted as “presence/coming/advent.” This wordʼs first New Testament use is found in Matthew 24:3 :

…the disciples came to [Jesus] privately, saying…“what will be the sign of Your parousia, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus then gave them His Mount of Olives discourse about the initial events of the end of the age, those events including the Abomination of Desolation (24:15) and the Great Tribulation (24:21). He then said,

Matthew 24:27 “For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines unto the west, so also will be the parousia of the Son of Man. … 30 …the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Jesus then went on to explain that “that Day” of “the parousia of the Son of Man” (24:36-39) will be as unexpected to the worldʼs inhabitants as was the universal judgment of the Noahic Deluge to the people of its day.

* * *​

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul explains that the resurrection of the dead will come at the parousia of Christ:

15:21 …by Man [Jesus] also comes the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruit, afterward those who are Christʼs at His parousia.

* * *

Paulʼs broadest description of the parousia of the Lord and its associated events is found in his Epistles to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in front of our Lord Jesus Christ at His parousia?

3:13 …may [Jesus] establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring together with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

5:23 …may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the above passages, Paul tells us that the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture/catching up of the saints in Christ into the clouds, will take place at His parousia. In 2 Thessalonians 2, he provides us more details about the events and the timing of that day:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now brethren, concerning the parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by word or by letter, as if through us, as though the Day of Christ [alt., of the Lord] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the apostasia comes first, and the Man of Sin [alt., Lawlessness] is revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the sanctuary/holy place of God, exhibiting himself that he is a god. … 8 … this Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His parousia.

* * *

The apostle Peter also prophesied about the parousia of the Lord:

2 Peter 3:3 …scoffers will come in the Last Days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His parousia? … 10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat… 11 Therefore…what manner of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the parousia of the Day of God…?

* * *

The above passages of Scripture, taken together in their context, testify the following things about “the parousia of the Son of Man”:

1) The parousia will be preceded by the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, false christs, wars, famines and pestilences; and thereafter signs in the heavens and cataclysms on earth. Matt. 24:3-31.; much of which is mirrored in Rev. 6:1-14. And also preceded by the apostasia, and the coming of the Son of Perdition/Lawless One. 2 Thes. 2:1-4, 8

2) The parousia will be concurrent with the resurrection of the dead, the gathering together of the believing saints by the angels of heaven, and these saints being caught up/raptured into the clouds of heaven. Matt. 24:30-31; 1 Cor. 15:21-23; 1 Thes 2:19; 3:13; 4:14-17

3) The parousia is called the Day of Christ/of the Lord/of God/of His [the Lambʼs] Wrath. 2 Thes. 2:1-2; 2 Pet. 3:10, 12; Rev. 6:17 However, although the events noted in #2 above will occur within one 24-hour day, the designations “Day of the Lord” etc. also bespeak of a heavenly-originated period of judgment that will extend many days and years beyond this one 24-hour day. This is evident from Revelation 6:15-17, the events of which take place immediately after the heavenly and earthly signs that portend the parousia:

Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said, “Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the Great Day of His [alt., Their] Wrath has come…”

That era of wrath will include all of the events foretold and described up through the end of Revelation 19. It will conclude with Jesus “treading the winepress of the anger and wrath of Almighty God” during His battle with and defeat of the gathered “Beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies” at the Battle of Armageddon. Rev. 19:15, 19; 16:16
Is there any pin point on Revelation where the wrath begins and when are they saved from it?
 
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WilliamLhk

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Is there any pin point on Revelation where the wrath begins and when are they saved from it?
The Wrath of God begins Revelation 6:16-17 --

16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath is come, and who is able to stand?”

Ends at the 7th Bowl --

Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. ... 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
 
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food4thought

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Assumption and speculation.
No. The scripture clearly states that a great multitude will come to faith during the Great Tribulation.
Revelation 7:9-13 is about those who stood strong in their faith and trusted the Lord for protection during the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will have just happened.
Revelation 7:14-17 is a Prophecy about Eternity, after the Millennium. Proved by how it will be then that God will wipe away every tear, Revelation 21:4
There is quite a bit of assumption and speculation there.
 
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keras

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No. The scripture clearly states that a great multitude will come to faith during the Great Tribulation.
The great multitude in Rev 7:9 are those people who already had faith and stood firm during the terrible Day of the Lords wrath.

Revelation 16:11 says the people will not repent during the GT.
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath is come, and who is able to stand?”

Ends at the 7th Bowl --
You cannot conflate the Sixth Seal with the 7 Trumpets. They are different events. The Sixth Seal will be for one single day. The Trumpets and Bowls will happen over a period of 3 1/2 years, culminating in the 7th Bowl; Armageddon. Rev 16:16-18
 
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WilliamLhk

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The great multitude in Rev 7:9 are those people who already had faith and stood firm during the terrible Day of the Lords wrath.
Those saints survive the GT and are raptured just as God's wrath begins. Just as Noah entered the ark, then God's judgement began.
Revelation 16:11 says the people will not repent during the GT.
That verse says nothing about the GT.
You cannot conflate the Sixth Seal with the 7 Trumpets. They are different events. The Sixth Seal will be for one single day. The Trumpets and Bowls will happen over a period of 3 1/2 years, culminating in the 7th Bowl; Armageddon. Rev 16:16-18
I don't conflate them. Revelation doesn't say how long the 6th seal lasts.
 
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keras

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Those saints survive the GT and are raptured just as God's wrath begins
Those people n Rev 7, are who survive the Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
That verse says nothing about the GT.
Obviously; the Seventh Bowl is part of the Great Tribulation, the final event.
I don't conflate them. Revelation doesn't say how long the 6th seal lasts.
....for the great Day of God and the Lamb has come and who can stand?
When it is understood what the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, +, then you will realise that it lasts for just the one literal day, or nothing would survive.
 
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WilliamLhk

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Those people n Rev 7, are who survive the Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Your presumptions. Rev. 7 does not mention the Day of the Lord, only the Trib.
Obviously; the Seventh Bowl is part of the Great Tribulation, the final event.
Here again, your presumption, without evidence. Nothing obvious about it..
When it is understood what the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, +, then you will realise that it lasts for just the one literal day, or nothing would survive.
The wrath lasts through all seven trumpets and all seven bowls. Good luck cramming all those doings in one 24-hour day!
 
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