VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

Aren't we to not regard anyone after the flesh and that there was neither Jew nor Greek for all are one in Christ?

Yes, that is what we must do.
But God does have a secret; He has kept His eyes on the actual descendants of Jacob, for their future, as Prophesied by Moses and Jacob, to each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Amos 9:9
Moses does Prophesy what will happen in the end times; Deuteronomy 32:34-43

THE SONG OF MOSES:
Deuteronomy 32:1-43 Give ear, you heavens and earth to what I say - the words that I speak. Let my teaching fall like fine rain onto growing plants.
When I proclaim the Creator – the Lord whose ways are just and righteous, you will respond: “Great is our God “

But you are a perverted and crooked generation. Is this how you repay the Lord? You stupid people, He is the one who made you. Remember the old days, your fathers will tell of God’s favour to them.

When the Most High gave each nation it’s heritage and laid the boundaries for each peoples, the Lord took as His share, Israel, His own people. He found them in a desert land, protected and trained them, watched over and led them to a fertile Land. They grew fat and healthy, but then forsook the Lord: their Maker.
The Lord hid His face from them, saying; Let Me see what their end will be, for they are not to be trusted. In My anger, I shall heap disasters upon them. I had resolved to totally destroy them, but I thought that their enemies would take the credit, saying; it was us that defeated Israel.

Israel are a people that lack understanding – if only they realized what their end is to be! They are only defeated because I have handed them over, their enemies are just fools without a Rock like Israel. I, the Lord, have sealed up in My storehouses a reserve of punishment and vengeance for the moment when the foot of your enemies slips, for the Day of their doom is fast approaching.

The Lord will judge His people and have compassion on His servants when He sees that their strength is gone. He will ask; Where are your false gods now? Let them help you.
See, now that I: I am the Lord your God, there is none other.
I swear; As I live forever, when I have sharpened My flashing sword and set My hand to judgement, then I shall punish My adversaries and wreak vengeance on My foes. My sword will devour flesh and spill the blood of the enemy princes.

Verse 22; For fire is set ablaze in My anger, it burns to the depths of hell, it devours the earth and its harvest and its flames reach the roots of the mountains.

Rejoice you heavens, worship Him, for He will avenge the blood of His people. He will punish those who hate Him and will cleanse the Land belonging to His people.
Great is our God!
Reference, Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged

From this passage, we see, in verse 35, that the Lord is waiting for His enemies “foot to slip” – in other words, for them to make a mistaken move and then He will act against them. That move will be an attack onto Israel and the Lord will respond with fire from His storehouse, the sun. Isaiah 30:26-30, Deuteronomy 32:22, Malachi 4:1-3

Verse 43- the NIV says; ....He will take vengeance on His enemies and make atonement for His Land and people.

A parallel passage is in Jeremiah 12:14 I shall uproot those evil neighbours who encroach on the Land which I allotted to My people, Israelites, as their holding. Israelites: Now, every true Christian believer in God and Jesus. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-8

Psalm 125:3 The rule of the wicked will not remain over the Land allotted to the righteous. Jeremiah 10:18, Hosea 4:3

The Lord hid His Face from them….. Ezekiel 39:25-29 When I bring My people into their heritage……..No longer shall I hide My face from them……Revelation 7:9

 

[godisagardener]

YES

 

[Lost Witness]

No

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Yes

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Rapture theory is false doctrine. False brethren are condemned. Documentation, Ezekiel chapter 13.

Paul wrote second thessalonians. Because of confusion of first thessalonians chapter 4. And some fake shepherds twist or distort that chapter into rapture theory.

Second thessalonians chapter 2 and revelation chapter 12. To document, theirs no rapture. Satan as antichrist will come 6th trump. Those who are biblically illiterate will worship antichrist.
Ephesians chapter 6 . Gospel armour is knowledge and wisdom of God's word. Its spirtual war. Its words, ideas and concepts . The gospel armour is only way past antichrist lies and deception. Get the picture.

Rapture theory is not a doctrine, it is a belief, hence the word theory.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Post-Trib Rapture is where it's at.

After 2 years of in depth study of Revelation, Daniel, and a stack of books from preterism to idealism, we concluded that among the possible rapture timings, post-trib rapture theory seemed to be the most unlikely. What is the basis for your position?

 

[All Becomes New]

What is the basis for your position?

Let's start with 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. How do you read a Pre-Tribulation rapture into that?

 

[All Becomes New]

After 2 years of in depth study of Revelation, Daniel, and a stack of books from preterism to idealism, we concluded that among the possible rapture timings, post-trib rapture theory seemed to be the most unlikely. What is the basis for your position?

Also, we can look at the Greek word παρουσία (parousia) which describes the "coming of the Lord" which is never talked about as a separate "secret event" where the Lord returns to take the bride from the earth. It is one event.

It's fine to look into Daniel and Revelation, but when the claim is made from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 to describe this "secret event" we should take all scripture into account and not just passages from the apocalyptic books, which I don't believe there is a person on earth who fully understands them. Isn't that why so much time and energy goes into studying these books? Because they are mysterious? So we interpret the unclear passages of scripture by the clear ones. That does not leave room for a Pre-Tribulation rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

Also, we can look at the Greek word παρουσία (parousia) which describes the "coming of the Lord" which is never talked about as a separate "secret event" where the Lord returns to take the bride from the earth. It is one event.

It's fine to look into Daniel and Revelation, but when the claim is made from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 to describe this "secret event" we should take all scripture into account and not just passages from the apocalyptic books, which I don't believe there is a person on earth who fully understands them. Isn't that why so much time and energy goes into studying these books? Because they are mysterious? So we interpret the unclear passages of scripture by the clear ones. That does not leave room for a Pre-Tribulation rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4 does not give us any time frame references in regards to the final harvest.

Paul makes it clear, the church will no longer be on the earth, and Paul does not claim the church comes back to the earth. Paul does not give any indication of timing.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Yes, that is what we must do.
But God does have a secret; He has kept His eyes on the actual descendants of Jacob, for their future, as Prophesied by Moses and Jacob, to each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Amos 9:9
Moses does Prophesy what will happen in the end times; Deuteronomy 32:34-43

THE SONG OF MOSES:
Deuteronomy 32:1-43 Give ear, you heavens and earth to what I say - the words that I speak. Let my teaching fall like fine rain onto growing plants.
When I proclaim the Creator – the Lord whose ways are just and righteous, you will respond: “Great is our God “

But you are a perverted and crooked generation. Is this how you repay the Lord? You stupid people, He is the one who made you. Remember the old days, your fathers will tell of God’s favour to them.

When the Most High gave each nation it’s heritage and laid the boundaries for each peoples, the Lord took as His share, Israel, His own people. He found them in a desert land, protected and trained them, watched over and led them to a fertile Land. They grew fat and healthy, but then forsook the Lord: their Maker.
The Lord hid His face from them, saying; Let Me see what their end will be, for they are not to be trusted. In My anger, I shall heap disasters upon them. I had resolved to totally destroy them, but I thought that their enemies would take the credit, saying; it was us that defeated Israel.

Israel are a people that lack understanding – if only they realized what their end is to be! They are only defeated because I have handed them over, their enemies are just fools without a Rock like Israel. I, the Lord, have sealed up in My storehouses a reserve of punishment and vengeance for the moment when the foot of your enemies slips, for the Day of their doom is fast approaching.

The Lord will judge His people and have compassion on His servants when He sees that their strength is gone. He will ask; Where are your false gods now? Let them help you.
See, now that I: I am the Lord your God, there is none other.
I swear; As I live forever, when I have sharpened My flashing sword and set My hand to judgement, then I shall punish My adversaries and wreak vengeance on My foes. My sword will devour flesh and spill the blood of the enemy princes.

Verse 22; For fire is set ablaze in My anger, it burns to the depths of hell, it devours the earth and its harvest and its flames reach the roots of the mountains.

Rejoice you heavens, worship Him, for He will avenge the blood of His people. He will punish those who hate Him and will cleanse the Land belonging to His people.
Great is our God!
Reference, Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged

From this passage, we see, in verse 35, that the Lord is waiting for His enemies “foot to slip” – in other words, for them to make a mistaken move and then He will act against them. That move will be an attack onto Israel and the Lord will respond with fire from His storehouse, the sun. Isaiah 30:26-30, Deuteronomy 32:22, Malachi 4:1-3

Verse 43- the NIV says; ....He will take vengeance on His enemies and make atonement for His Land and people.

A parallel passage is in Jeremiah 12:14 I shall uproot those evil neighbours who encroach on the Land which I allotted to My people, Israelites, as their holding. Israelites: Now, every true Christian believer in God and Jesus. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-8

Psalm 125:3 The rule of the wicked will not remain over the Land allotted to the righteous. Jeremiah 10:18, Hosea 4:3

The Lord hid His Face from them….. Ezekiel 39:25-29 When I bring My people into their heritage……..No longer shall I hide My face from them……Revelation 7:9

Israel are a people that lack understanding – if only they realized what their end is to be! They are only defeated because I have handed them over, their enemies are just fools without a Rock like Israel. I, the Lord, have sealed up in My storehouses a reserve of punishment and vengeance for the moment when the foot of your enemies slips, for the Day of their doom is fast approaching.

Deuteronomy 32 The Song of Moses is the prophecy of Israel's End. They were to sing it until they became witnesses of themselves.
John 11:
49But one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one.
There is only one faith, there is no longer a Jewish faith separate from Christ.
Ephesians 4:
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

The Jews became enemies of the gospel for the sake of the gentiles by stumbling over the stumbling stone. In fact, they slipped up so bad, they murdered their Savior as well as the apostles and prophets that were sent to them.

How many promises of God are there?
2 Corinthians 1:20For as many as the promises of God are, in Him they are yes; therefore through Him also is our Amen to the glory of God through us.

Since Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and gave His word that "heaven and earth" would pass away before even a jot or tittle of the law would pass away( Matthew( 5:17,18 ), Therefore every promise is fulfilled in the ultimate promise of God, Jesus Christ. That is why we see that the church has no end.
Luke 1
:32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

Ephesians 3:
21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Isaiah 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

 

[keras]

Paul makes it clear, the church will no longer be on the earth, and Paul does not claim the church comes back to the earth. Paul does not give any indication of timing.

Right, most Prophesies are not clear as to when they will happen.
That is why it is serious error to assume a 'rapture to heaven', as that can only be possible AFTER Judgment. Which comes after the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15
Even then, we never leave the earth, as God comes to dwell with us. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Divide]

Yes.

 

[Timtofly]

Right, most Prophesies are not clear as to when they will happen.
That is why it is serious error to assume a 'rapture to heaven', as that can only be possible AFTER Judgment. Which comes after the Millennium; Revelation 20:11-15
Even then, we never leave the earth, as God comes to dwell with us. Revelation 21:1-7

I think the Second Coming happens prior to the Day of the Lord, not post the Day of the Lord.

If you think that 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about the end of the Day of the Lord, that would be the post mill or amill view.

 

[okay]

No. I don’t believe in the rapture. You can believe it if you want, but orthodox Christianity doesn’t require it.

 

[keras]

I think the Second Coming happens prior to the Day of the Lord, not post the Day of the Lord.

Agreed.
The great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal; worldwide disaster, will happen at least 10 years before Jesus Returns.
The reference to God's wrath in Revelation 19:15b, is to a past event. Proved by Revelation 14:18-20

1 Thess 4:13-17 is entirely about what happens when Jesus Returns.

 

[guyver]

Jude 1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all.

This is post trib in my eyes , and we been raptured to meet him in the air in the clouds , and then its back to earth to clean up the bad guys.

So I guess it's NO.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

No.
This exercise proves something else, the heresy of creedalism. These two views contradict each other and one of them contradicts the bible by definition, proving that it is ok for orthodoxy to contradict the bible, it's just not ok to contradict the creeds. Therefore, it is the bible which is subject to the creeds and not the other way around.

Acts 14:21And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made a good number of disciples, they returned to Lystra, to Iconium, and to Antioch, 22strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “It is through many tribulations that we must enter the kingdom of God.”
Revelation 1:9I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and my testimony about Jesus.

 

[Michael Snow]

NO. as is the case with most Protestants and the rest of the Body of Christ.

The Rapture Teaching vs. The New Testament

 

[SavedByGrace3]

No
I did early on in my walk, from 1971 to about 1980.

 

[RonJohnSilver]

I thought polls were not allowed, however, since they apparently are, put me down as

YES!