Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

Bordering on the bizarre does nothing to help your argument.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[rjs330]

Look, if HAMAS knew that its days (of support) within Gaza were numbered and they’d suddenly be “the targets”, from BOTH sides. Better they “go out in a blaze of glory!” ?

Yes, it’s crazy, and yet here we are.

I thought Hamas had an iron grip on Gaza? At least that's what many are saying. Their lack of support from their people regarding their governance has been low for a while. The Palestinians hadn't done anything about it. Any many on this board including you I believe have been telling us that no one in Palestine could do anything about it. So how could they be Targets from both sides?

Secondly Hamas has been attacking Israel for years and Israel had shown no desire to storm into Gaza and take them out.

So the Palestinians had shown no desire or effort to take Hamas out and Israel had shown no desire to attack Gaza and take them out so Hamas really wasn't a "target" at all.

For all intents and purposes it could have remained status quo for them. Yet they made the decision to escalate when there was no real reason to do so. They could have backed off, set aside their arms and decided to work with Israel and the international community and create a peaceful Palestinian state focused on building a strong economic society. But instead they elected to commit a pure act of evil. For no legitimate reason other than hatred for their neighbors.

 

[Valletta]

Part of the current disquiet has some measure in the recognition of Jerusalem rather than Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.

The disquiet is because of the butchery of innocent human beings by jihadist sadists who had been planning an attack for a long time.

 

[Philip_B]

The disquiet is because of the butchery of innocent human beings by jihadist sadists who had been planning an attack for a long time.

I share the disquiet, though don't feel the need to use the term 'jihadist sadists'. I absolutely understand that Israel has to respond, and indeed respond with some force, and that they do need to do so in an opposite and timely way. Hamas is due the condemnation of the world for having planned, conducted, arranged or enabled these attacks.

The elimination of Hamas will achieve little in the grand scheme of things, and in terms of recent history, the elimination of Alqueda led to the rise of the Islamic State which was not necessarily an improvement.

 

[rjs330]

do understand there are just causes for war, however, I am cautious here, for sometimes the argument for a Just War is simply an argument to just war.

I agree with you here. I am wondering though what circumstances would be required in order for you to consider that a war is just?

If a people have been bombing you, killing you, shooting missiles at you for decades and then launches a brutal attack against your people including murdering your women as they are being raped, murdering babies, butchering children and burning people alive doesn't constitute the justification for a just war, what does?

 

[Philip_B]

I agree with you here. I am wondering though what circumstances would be required in order for you to consider that a war is just?

If a people have been bombing you, killing you, shooting missiles at you for decades and then launches a brutal attack against your people including murdering your women as they are being raped, murdering babies, butchering children and burning people alive doesn't constitute the justification for a just war, what does?

I have not suggested that there is not an argument for a Just War here, save that I suspect War has to be waged between Sovereign Entities, and for Israel to declare war on Palestine would require them to recognise the sovereign status of Palestine.

Putin has not declared war on Ukraine but rather chose not to recognise their borders as sovereign, and so seeing it as a Police action.

 

[Valletta]

“This was a Hamas statement, but although the accusations were attributed and our story contained a response from the Israeli military saying they were unaware of the incident and that Hamas was a terrorist organisation that did not value truth, we had not made sufficient effort to seek corroborating evidence to justify reporting the Hamas claim. We apologise for this mistake.”

BBC Apologizes For Reporting Unverified Hamas Claim Israel Was “Executing” Palestinians In Gaza

EXCLUSIVE: The BBC has apologized for reporting an unverified Hamas claim about the Israeli army carrying out “summary executions” of Palestinian civilians in Gaza. BBC radio news bulletins reported Hamas’ allegation on Christmas Eve but the corporation said sufficient efforts were not made to...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Bradskii]

I agree with you here. I am wondering though what circumstances would be required in order for you to consider that a war is just?

That's not the point. It's the execution of the war which is causing concern. From here: West Bank videos show Israeli troops killing teenager and driving over man’s body

And be warned, the video in that link shows some distressing images.

'Two videos from the West Bank showing Israeli troops shooting a 17-year-old boy and security forces repeatedly running over the body of a man they had shot have added to concerns about the Israeli military’s rules of engagement.'

 

[Valletta]

Israeli military says it found traces of hostages in an underground tunnel in Gaza

The Israeli military said Wednesday it has found evidence that hostages were present in an underground tunnel in the Gaza Strip city of Khan Younis, which has become the focus of Israel's ground offensive. The military showed the tunnel to journalists who were escorted into a neighborhood near...

www.yahoo.com

 

[o_mlly]

That's not the point. It's the execution of the war which is causing concern. From here: West Bank videos show Israeli troops killing teenager and driving over man’s body

And be warned, the video in that link shows some distressing images.

'Two videos from the West Bank showing Israeli troops shooting a 17-year-old boy and security forces repeatedly running over the body of a man they had shot have added to concerns about the Israeli military’s rules of engagement.'

I watched the videos multiple times and did not see "Israeli troops shooting a 17-year-old boy and security forces repeatedly running over the body of a man". Did you post the correct link?

In the left-wing Guardian link provided, the "witness" identifies the sniper as an Israeli soldier. How could he know the identity of a sniper who be definition shoots from concealment at long range? But this report serves the narrative that the Guardian and others push so let's run with it.

 

[Laodicean60]

I watched the videos multiple times and did not see "Israeli troops shooting a 17-year-old boy and security forces repeatedly running over the body of a man". Did you post the correct link?

In the left-wing Guardian link provided, the "witness" identifies the sniper as an Israeli soldier. How could he know the identity of a sniper who be definition shoots from concealment at long range? But this report serves the narrative that the Guardian and others push so let's run with it.

I watched the video too and at one point I saw soldiers around the bodies after the fact. I didn't see the shooter. Ozwald was behind rubble when the others were standing around. What was he doing? Kinda stupid for those two boys to immediately go to their buddy right after shots were fired. There was testimony from one of the kids. Was those security cameras? I don't know how prominent they are in Gaza.

 

[o_mlly]

I watched the video too and at one point I saw soldiers around the bodies after the fact. I didn't see the shooter. There was testimony from one of the kids.

The AP report more accurately begins, "Video appears to show ...". Whereas the Guardian reports, "... videos show Israeli troops killing ....". Bias?

MSN

"Apart from Israeli troops carrying guns, no weapons are visible throughout the video. The shooter is not visible either."

 

[Laodicean60]

The AP report more accurately begins, "Video appears to show ...". Whereas the Guardian reports, "... videos show Israeli troops killing ....". Bias?

MSN

"Apart from Israeli troops carrying guns, no weapons are visible throughout the video. The shooter is not visible either."

Still showed what appeared to be three kid's shots whether staged I don't know. I wish we could see the whole video of the situation.

 

[JosephZ]

South Africa is giving a very compelling presentation, with video evidence, on what any reasonable person would consider to be a genocide at the International Court of Justice right now. I suggest everyone watch these hearings.

Today: 10 a.m.-1 p.m.: Oral argument (South Africa)

Friday: 10 a.m.-1 p.m.: Oral argument (Israel)

.

 

[ralliann]

There are no “good guys” at this present time.
Trying to champion one side over the other as such is going to lead one into waters fraught with danger.

it is war. If Hamas would cease fire the killing will stop.

 

[ralliann]

South Africa is giving a very compelling presentation, with video evidence, on what any reasonable person would consider to be a genocide at the International Court of Justice right now. I suggest everyone watch these hearings.

Today: 10 a.m.-1 p.m.: Oral argument (South Africa)

Saturday: 10 a.m.-1 p.m.: Oral argument (Israel)

.

Hamas should cease fire

 

[ralliann]

I share the disquiet, though don't feel the need to use the term 'jihadist sadists'. I absolutely understand that Israel has to respond, and indeed respond with some force, and that they do need to do so in an opposite and timely way. Hamas is due the condemnation of the world for having planned, conducted, arranged or enabled these attacks.

The elimination of Hamas will achieve little in the grand scheme of things, and in terms of recent history, the elimination of Alqueda led to the rise of the Islamic State which was not necessarily an improvement.

you can't have peace with those who refuse it. You have just got to attempt to make it less likely when you can. I don't know at this point if it is even plausible for a Palestinian state. The more distance between the two might be a better option. But when this is done Israel ultimately will determine this.

 

[ralliann]

Oh boo hoo on the Jerusalem issue. If countries don't recognize Palestine as a state it's Palestines own fault b cause they refuse to accept ANY offer of statehood that has been offered to them. These other countries have recognized Palestine as a state even when Palestine hasn't recognized itself as a state. It's just posturing by these other countries. If Palestine would get their stuff together, be willing to accept it's own statehood and do what's necessary to create it's own state it would be better off. Instead they piddle around and choose terrorist organizations to lead them. They are their own worst enemies at this point. By now they could have accept d several offers and been well in their way to an economically resilient and prosperous country. Instead they chose to launch missiles into Israel and be led by terrorists.

I agree here. There has been talk of no state for them. Hamas won't cease fire, and continue to have Palestinians in war zones. They just won't accept peace.

 

[Valletta]

Hezbollah Threatens Israel with 'Fighting Without Limits' | The Gateway Pundit | by Guest Contributor

This article originally appeared on WND.com Guest by post by Bob Unruh Warns of ‘tens of thousands of fatalities within the enemy entity in retaliation’ As the war the Gaza-based Hamas terrorists launched against Israel rages on, with the Israel Defense Forces promising to wipe out that group...

www.thegatewaypundit.com

We saw how the jihadists slaughtered innocents, it is foolish to think they will change their ways or abandon their goal of the exterminating Jews and Christians.

 

[Valletta]

South Africa is giving a very compelling presentation, with video evidence, on what any reasonable person would consider to be a genocide at the International Court of Justice right now. I suggest everyone watch these hearings.

"The United States doesn’t believe Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza, US officials said on Wednesday as they slammed South Africa’s appeal to the International Court of Justice for a ruling on the matter."

Israel-Hamas war: US 'not seeing' acts of Israeli genocide in Gaza | The Jerusalem Post

Israel has called the genocide case "baseless" and says Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields and stealing aid from them, accusations Hamas denies.

www.jpost.com