Worship is the Core Issue as we see in Revelation

Leaf473

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One of the conundrums faced by Christians is applying what is divine to the Church. Throughout scripture the Word of God (aka the Law) is extolled as divine. Psalm 119 is entirely devoted to that idea. The problem comes with the destruction of the Temple and all associated with it. Was the Temple divine? Was the tabernacle in the wilderness divine? Both have passed away, but the commandments which they alone could satisfy remain enshrined as eternal. Therefore, although these commandments cannot be obeyed, were they also temporal and not eternal?
Great observations :thumbsup: The way I look at it is that all of the laws are eternal, whether it's the Ten Commandments or how sacrifices were done.

But how we apply them changes over time.

Today, we apply the principles of all of the Law of Moses.


Does that fit with what you're saying?
 
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Leaf473

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The earthy temple was built up and destroyed more than once for disobeying God. The earthy temple means nothing anymore, just like it did when God destroyed it the first and second time. Jesus ministers from a heavenly Temple, not made with human hands and the earthy temple was always a miniature pointing to God's heavenly Temple. Hebrews 8:1-5
Our bodies are also a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 3:16 which is why it's important not to defile our temple and keep it clean.
Hi SB, I'm not aware of any group that keeps this cleanliness law. Maybe there is one?

God said His commandments would be kept until the very end of time by His faithful. Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14
 
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bbbbbbb

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The earthy temple was built up and destroyed more than once for disobeying God. The earthy temple means nothing anymore, just like it did when God destroyed it the first and second time. Jesus ministers from a heavenly Temple, not made with human hands and the earthy temple was always a miniature pointing to God's heavenly Temple. Hebrews 8:1-5 Our bodies are also a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 3:16 which is why it's important not to defile our temple and keep it clean. God said His commandments would be kept until the very end of time by His faithful. Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14
However, our bodies were created and are not divine. At the resurrection they will be changed, but for now they are subject to decay and death.

Back to my previous thought. Is God's word divine or created? Are His commandments eternal or only temporary? Do you believe, along with David in Psalm 119: 160 that "every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting."?

Did God intend for His commandments to be disobeyed simply because the Temple has been destroyed?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Great observations :thumbsup: The way I look at it is that all of the laws are eternal, whether it's the Ten Commandments or how sacrifices were done.

But how we apply them changes over time.

Today, we apply the principles of all of the Law of Moses.


Does that fit with what you're saying?
It does, indeed, fit what I am getting at. The nut of the problem is determining "the principles of all of the Law of Moses". As we know, Jesus summed it up neatly for us - love God and love our neighbor. How we actually put that into practice has led to all manner of differences.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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However, our bodies were created and are not divine. At the resurrection they will be changed, but for now they are subject to decay and death.
So does that mean we can defile our bodies until Jesus changes them? Not according to Paul. 1 Cor 3:16
Back to my previous thought. Is God's word divine or created? Are His commandments eternal or only temporary? Do you believe, along with David in Psalm 119: 160 that "every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting."?

Did God intend for His commandments to be disobeyed simply because the Temple has been destroyed?
The commandments of God are eternal Jesus said so Mat 5:17-30 and we see them kept by God's faithful until the very end of time Rev 22:12, Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 has nothing to do with the earthy temple once Jesus destroyed it.
 
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Leaf473

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oikonomia

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There are two places in the book of Revelation where John was so overcome by what he saw
that he made a mistake and erroneously worshipped the angel showing these things. Can you believe that someone
as clear about Who to worship as John could be so overwhelmed that he made a mistake?

The two instances have the same basic characteristic.

1.) A remnant of God's redeemed people will be totally vindicated as becomming like Christ.

And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God. And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Do not do this. I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy. (Rev. 19:9,10)

2.) The totality of God's redeemed people will be totally vindicated as becomming like Christ.

And I John am he who hears and sees these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, Do not do that! I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God. (Rev. 22:8,9)
 
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Great observations :thumbsup: The way I look at it is that all of the laws are eternal, whether it's the Ten Commandments or how sacrifices were done.

But how we apply them changes over time.

Today, we apply the principles of all of the Law of Moses.


Does that fit with what you're saying?
Moses was just a man, but the One who wrote the Commandments on the Two Tables was the Creator who made the Sabbath, so its at the core of the conflict of true worship.
 
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Bob S

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Moses was just a man, but the One who wrote the Commandments on the Two Tables was the Creator who made the Sabbath, so its at the core of the conflict of true worship.
I take it you think because Moses was "just a man" that what he wrote in the Book of the Law was not as as important as what was written on stones. I totally disagree, what Moses wrote came out of the mouth of God. Moses merely wrote the laws God dictated to him. Without the Book of the Law the Israelites would not have been given the greatest commands, Love. Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5
 
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oikonomia

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Moses was just a man, but the One who wrote the Commandments on the Two Tables was the Creator who made the Sabbath, so its at the core of the conflict of true worship.
I had a suspicion that all your passages about worship in Revelation were going to be used
to espouse Saturday Sabbath keeping.
 
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Bob S

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I totally disagree with the premise of the thread. Worshipping God is of upmost importance just as the opening thread indicated, but tying our worship to a one day ceremony is wrong. The Sabbath was not made for Israel to be a special day of worship It was made for Israel to rest and reflect on creation and how God led them out of slavery in Egypt. The point should be that we worship God equally today and every day.
 
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oikonomia

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I totally disagree with the premise of the thread. Worshipping God is of upmost importance just as the opening thread indicated, but tying our worship to a one day ceremony is wrong. The Sabbath was not made for Israel to be a special day of worship It was made for Israel to rest and reflect on creation and how God led them out of slavery in Egypt. The point should be that we worship God equally today and every day.
You know John wrote the he was in spirit on the Lord's Day.
I was in spirit on the Lord’s Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, (Rev.1:10)

1.) I am pretty sure "the Lord's Day" there was the first day of a new week - Christ resurrected from the dead
on the first day of a new week.


2.) He said nowhere that he was not in spirit on any other day.

3.) He did not say he thought that only on the Lord's Day he should be in spirit.

4.) Everyday at every time and all day a Christian should be in spirit.
How else can we "Abide in Him."?

5.) Therefore our goal as Christians is to abide in the Lord (who is with our regenerated spirit) all the time.
And our living is actually our worship also.

As for gathering together for a corporate worship, there is no legality in the New Testament.
The first of the week to celebrate Him is excellent. Where I meet we have the Lord's Table each Lord's Day which is
a Sunday.

The seventh day is good too. We should live in spirit and regularly come together to at good time for the majority to
overflow our praise and worship for how we've lived each day.
 
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oikonomia

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For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
When John wrote this do you think he was not worshipping the Lord?

I was in spirit on the Lord’s Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, (Rev. 1:10)
 
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oikonomia

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The four living creatures who represent all created beings worshipped without ceasing. (Rev. 4:8,9)

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings apiece, are full of eyes around and within; and they have no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.
And when the four living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits upon the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,


God the Creator on the throne didn't rebuke them telling them that they should wait until Saturday to worship.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You know John wrote the he was in spirit on the Lord's Day.
I was in spirit on the Lord’s Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, (Rev.1:10)

1.) I am pretty sure "the Lord's Day" there was the first day of a new week - Christ resurrected from the dead
on the first day of a new week.


2.) He said nowhere that he was not in spirit on any other day.

3.) He did not say he thought that only on the Lord's Day he should be in spirit.

4.) Everyday at every time and all day a Christian should be in spirit.
How else can we "Abide in Him."?

5.) Therefore our goal as Christians is to abide in the Lord (who is with our regenerated spirit) all the time.
And our living is actually our worship also.

As for gathering together for a corporate worship, there is no legality in the New Testament.
The first of the week to celebrate Him is excellent. Where I meet we have the Lord's Table each Lord's Day which is
a Sunday.

The seventh day is good too. We should live in spirit and regularly come together to at good time for the majority to
overflow our praise and worship for how we've lived each day.
God speaking here...

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

Isa 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Thats some big shoes one would have to fill to change something out of the mouth of God, which is why Rev 1:10 does not say anything about that being day 1 as God deemed that a working day Exo 20:9 thus saith the Lord.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Heb 13:8

Jesus told us to live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God, Mat 4:4 not change it, because we are not God, we are to serve Him.
 
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oikonomia

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God speaking here...

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God
Yes, this God was incarnated, lived a perfect life, died to accomplish an eternal redemption and rose and breathed Himself into
the disciples.

The Triune God's process ends in Him reaching the inside of His people in the new covenant.
This reality, Christ living in us, is to be the paramount celebration every day.
Isa 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
That is another old testament admonition.
In the new covenant the believers are to live all the time and each day in the Holy Spirit.
That is Yahweh now gone through a process to finally reach man.

This reaching of man's innermost being is the Lord being with our spirit.
Living and abiding in that realm is the worshipping of Him.
It is not on this day or that day or this mountian or that city.

It is the worship that the Father seeks to live in spirit where the Lord's Spirit dwells.
And it is the drinking of the living water continuously that is the worship the Father seeks.


The woman said to Him, Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, yet you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men must worship.

Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is of the Jews.

But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. (John 4:19-24)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Heb 13:8
Yesterday there means from the day Jesus rose from the dead.
From His resurrection when the last Adam became a life giving Spirit to give divine life to man, on into eternity He is the same.

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes, this God was incarnated, lived a perfect life, died to accomplish an eternal redemption and rose and breathed Himself into
the disciples.

The Triune God's process ends in Him reaching the inside of His people in the new covenant.
This reality, Christ living in us, is to be the paramount celebration every day.

That is another old testament admonition.
In the new covenant the believers are to live all the time and each day in the Holy Spirit.
That is Yahweh now gone through a process to finally reach man.

This reaching of man's innermost being is the Lord being with our spirit.
Living and abiding in that realm is the worshipping of Him.
It is not on this day or that day or this mountian or that city.

It is the worship that the Father seeks to live in spirit where the Lord's Spirit dwells.
And it is the drinking of the living water continuously that is the worship the Father seeks.

The woman said to Him, Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, yet you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men must worship.

Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is of the Jews.

But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. (John 4:19-24)


Yesterday there means from the day Jesus rose from the dead.
From His resurrection when the last Adam became a life giving Spirit to give divine life to man, on into eternity He is the same.

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)
I find it amazing how many people brush aside the very Words of God. Like we have authority over Him, or that we would know better than He, what is His holy day. God never deemed any other day holy except the Sabbath. God never blessed or sanctified any other day except the Sabbath. Once God blesses something man cannot reverse Num 23:20 so one would need a thus saith the Lord and our words are not equal to God's.

There is nothing in the New Covenant where God changed His mind about His Sabbath day, that is a commandment. None of these verses you quoted changes anything, but I would like to note the teaching of Jesus and what He considers false worship (worshipping in vain) as we are to worship Him in Truth and all of His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151

Jesus quotes directly from the Ten Commandments stating when we keep our traditions over the commandments of God one worships in vain and our heart is far from Him- the opposite of the New Covenant- God's law in our hearts Heb 8:10 This is an important principle Jesus is applying to the Ten Commandments that He said in another teaching we are not to break the least of these commandments or teach others and it affects our status in heaven. Mat 5:19-30

Matt 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”


We see the opposite of this as true worship

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

We need the same faith of Jesus.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, His faithful followers kept the Sabbath according to the commandment. The change of God's Sabbath did not happen in scripture, but it was predicted in scripture it would happen, not by God. Dan 7:25 God has a faithful remnant who still keep His commandments Rev 12:17 which is why we should never follow the popular teachings of man over the teachings of God.
 
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