The Ten vs the 603

[Leaf473]

It was months ago that we discussed this.

You could use the CF search function to find it. Or Google site search. I tried but couldn't find any place where you detailed but the dietary laws are

Search results for query: Dietary laws

www.christianforums.com

"Gary K" dietary laws site:https://www.christianforums.com/ - Google Search

So what if the scripture you posted didn't talk about the Pharisees? I addressed the thought you posted

I have no doubt that you believe you addressed what you thought I was thinking. But that may not have been what I was thinking. That's why it's good to keep discussing things We may think we understand someone, but it turns out we don't.

We've had long enough conversations that you know. or should know by now.

I remember many long conversations, yes

that I don't just post off the wall comments.

If you're not actually responding to what I was getting at, to me it may appear off the wall

I'm not interested in going over this again. If you insist on asking for replies don't be real surprised when I don't answer.

It's entirely up to you, my brother

 

[Leaf473]

If you think it so great to be remade into the character of God why do you keep looking for loopholes to avoid keeping all 10 commandments?

I'm not looking for loopholes. I'm saying that the law, including the 10, is a unit.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:10 - New International Reader's Version

Suppose you keep the whole law but trip over just one part of it. Then you are guilty of breaking all of it.

www.biblegateway.com

Time for me to head for bed. Peace be with you, my brother Here's looking forward to a good discussion tomorrow

 

[Gary K]

I'm not looking for loopholes. I'm saying that the law, including the 10, is a unit.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:10 - New International Reader's Version

Suppose you keep the whole law but trip over just one part of it. Then you are guilty of breaking all of it.

www.biblegateway.com

Time for me to head for bed. Peace be with you, my brother Here's looking forward to a good discussion tomorrow

So? The power of God to change us is far more powerful than sin. You say you believe this, but you don't really think that way or you wouldn't worry about breaking a single commandment. So what if you do break a commandment once in a while? Won't Jesus still forgive you? Won't His righteousness still cover you?

The only reason a person thinks this is because at heart they are still trusting in themselves to obey God. Read my thread Jesus and sin.

God has been working immense changes in my life in the last year and a half as I now trust Him to both motivate and change me. It brings huge changes and joy to the Christian life.

 

[Leaf473]

So?

So the scriptures teach the law is a unit. But most seventh day observers say that it can be broken up into parts, part for today, and part for the past.

The power of God to change us is far more powerful than sin.

Amen.

You say you believe this, but you don't really think that way or you wouldn't worry about breaking a single commandment.

I'm not worried about breaking a commandment. I attempt to follow all of God's instructions for us today.

The quote from James is to show that the law is a unit. We keep it all, or we don't keep any of it. It looks to me like you can't keep just parts of it

So what if you do break a commandment once in a while?

That reminds me of this passage

Bible Gateway passage: James 3:2 - New International Reader's Version

All of us get tripped up in many ways. Suppose someone is never wrong in what they say. Then they are perfect. They are able to keep their whole body under control.

www.biblegateway.com

Won't Jesus still forgive you? Won't His righteousness still cover you?

Absolutely, thanks be to God!

The only reason a person thinks this is because at heart they are still trusting in themselves to obey God. Read my thread Jesus and sin.

I'm glad I don't think that

God has been working immense changes in my life in the last year and a half as I now trust Him to both motivate and change me. It brings huge changes and joy to the Christian life.

Amen, I rejoice with you

It's not about whether we should follow God's instructions or not. It's what God's instructions are to us today. Last I heard, you were saying we should still keep God's instructions of the Ten Commandments and the dietary laws.

Then I believe you said that the instruction to smash an unclean oven is still in place. This means dietary laws are not just foods, but also other things that can make food unclean.

Would you like to clarify what you mean by dietary laws any further? Is the following a dietary law?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New International Reader's Version

“ ‘Suppose the man touches a clay pot. Then that pot must be broken. Any wooden thing he touches must be rinsed with water.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

So the scriptures teach the law is a unit. But most seventh day observers say that it can be broken up into parts, part for today, and part for the past.


Amen.


I'm not worried about breaking a commandment. I attempt to follow all of God's instructions for us today.

The quote from James is to show that the law is a unit. We keep it all, or we don't keep any of it. It looks to me like you can't keep just parts of it


That reminds me of this passage

Bible Gateway passage: James 3:2 - New International Reader's Version

All of us get tripped up in many ways. Suppose someone is never wrong in what they say. Then they are perfect. They are able to keep their whole body under control.

www.biblegateway.com

Absolutely, thanks be to God!


I'm glad I don't think that


Amen, I rejoice with you

It's not about whether we should follow God's instructions or not. It's what God's instructions are to us today. Last I heard, you were saying we should still keep God's instructions of the Ten Commandments and the dietary laws.

Then I believe you said that the instruction to smash an unclean oven is still in place. This means dietary laws are not just foods, but also other things that can make food unclean.

Would you like to clarify what you mean by dietary laws any further? Is the following a dietary law?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 15:12 - New International Reader's Version

“ ‘Suppose the man touches a clay pot. Then that pot must be broken. Any wooden thing he touches must be rinsed with water.

www.biblegateway.com

We have little, if any, common ground on almost all of this.

Do you really think Jesus ate unclean meats?

There is nothing in the entire book of James that refers to anything other than the 10 commandments, as he calls them the royal law and the law of liberty.

And why wouldn't a clay oven or a clay pot been destroyed when it came it contact with unclean matter? Sounds like a common sense law to me. You assume way too much in your eagerness to get out of obeying God. The Israelites didn't have steel ovens like we do today.

And you seem to think that after the death of Jesus keeping the ceremonial laws is a must if we keep the 10 commandments. Why would anyone thing that?

Matthew 27: 50 ¶Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

That veil was the veil between the holy and most holy compartments of the temple. The high priest alone was to enter that compartment and him only once a year. On the exact moment of Jesus death it was supernaturally torn in half from top to bottom exposing the most holy place to the view of all. The apartment in which the shekinah glory dwelt was no longer the dwelling place of God.

So why would anyone say God expects us to keep on offering sacrifices for sin? Your legalism baffles me. Jesus was the reality to which those symbolic systems pointed. He was in reality the lamb of God.

As to the dietary laws, human nor animal physiology has changed. I've demonstrated to you before that scavengers have parasites that have no known cure, nor way of killing them. The rest of the definitions of unclean meats I'm willing to trust God on as He is wise, loving, and infinitely more knowledgeable than I am. If you don't trust God on these things I see that as an issue of trusting God on your part.

In my eyes you're the same kind of legalist the Pharisees were as you insist on keeping laws that no longer apply and violate the commandments God wrote with His own finger.

 

[Leaf473]

We have little, if any, common ground on almost all of this.

It's up to you whether you want to keep interacting or not

Do you really think Jesus ate unclean meats?

No. Jesus lived under the Old Covenant, though.

There is nothing in the entire book of James that refers to anything other than the 10 commandments, as he calls them the royal law and the law of liberty.

In James 2, he talks about treating everyone the same.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:1 - New International Reader's Version

Treat Everyone the Same - My brothers and sisters, you are believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. So treat everyone the same.

www.biblegateway.com

That's also from the law,

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 16:19 - New International Reader's Version

Do what is right. Treat everyone the same. Don’t take money from people who want special favors. It makes those who are wise close their eyes to the truth. It twists the words of those who have done nothing wrong.

www.biblegateway.com

And why wouldn't a clay oven or a clay pot been destroyed when it came it contact with unclean matter? Sounds like a common sense law to me.

It could make for very interesting Church potlucks:
"I'm sorry, I just remembered I have a discharge. You'll have to smash that crock pot."

But it doesn't stop with clay pots. Things made out of wood have to be rinsed with water. Does your church have wooden pews?

You assume way too much in your eagerness to get out of obeying God. The Israelites didn't have steel ovens like we do today.

I'm not eager to disobey God, I'm interested in discussing the situation with you

Leviticus 11 talks about an oven, regardless of material.

Leviticus 15 talks about clay objects, not necessarily ovens.

Is Leviticus 15:12 a dietary law?

And you seem to think that after the death of Jesus keeping the ceremonial laws is a must if we keep the 10 commandments. Why would anyone thing that?

I don't think that, so I'm the wrong person to ask

Matthew 27: 50 ¶Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

That veil was the veil between the holy and most holy compartments of the temple. The high priest alone was to enter that compartment and him only once a year. On the exact moment of Jesus death it was supernaturally torn in half from top to bottom exposing the most holy place to the view of all. The apartment in which the shekinah glory dwelt was no longer the dwelling place of God.

So why would anyone say God expects us to keep on offering sacrifices for sin?

I don't know why anyone would think that.

My position is that the law is a unit: it is all still in effect, or it is all not in effect.

Since God has made it impossible to complete certain parts of the law, such as the parts that require Levites, the conclusion is that none of the law is in effect.

Your legalism baffles me. Jesus was the reality to which those symbolic systems pointed. He was in reality the lamb of God.

Most people wouldn't say that a position of not keeping any of the law of Moses is legalism.

You have said that we are to keep the dietary laws, so I'm asking you what those laws are. I'm also bringing up implications of those laws, such as the potluck scenario of above. Is that what you're calling legalism?

As to the dietary laws, human nor animal physiology has changed. I've demonstrated to you before that scavengers have parasites that have no known cure, nor way of killing them. The rest of the definitions of unclean meats I'm willing to trust God on as He is wise, loving, and infinitely more knowledgeable than I am. If you don't trust God on these things I see that as an issue of trusting God on your part.

We're talking about a lot of things in addition to unclean meats. Do you regard all dietary laws as equally important?

In my eyes you're the same kind of legalist the Pharisees were as you insist on keeping laws that no longer apply and violate the commandments God wrote with His own finger.

I do not insist on keeping instructions from the law of Moses. But again, I'm wondering what it is that I write that you see as legalism

 

[Gary K]

It's up to you whether you want to keep interacting or not


No. Jesus lived under the Old Covenant, though.


In James 2, he talks about treating everyone the same.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:1 - New International Reader's Version

Treat Everyone the Same - My brothers and sisters, you are believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. So treat everyone the same.

www.biblegateway.com

That's also from the law,

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 16:19 - New International Reader's Version

Do what is right. Treat everyone the same. Don’t take money from people who want special favors. It makes those who are wise close their eyes to the truth. It twists the words of those who have done nothing wrong.

www.biblegateway.com

It could make for very interesting Church potlucks:
"I'm sorry, I just remembered I have a discharge. You'll have to smash that crock pot."

But it doesn't stop with clay pots. Things made out of wood have to be rinsed with water. Does your church have wooden pews?


I'm not eager to disobey God, I'm interested in discussing the situation with you

Leviticus 11 talks about an oven, regardless of material.

Leviticus 15 talks about clay objects, not necessarily ovens.

Is Leviticus 15:12 a dietary law?


I don't think that, so I'm the wrong person to ask



I don't know why anyone would think that.

My position is that the law is a unit: it is all still in effect, or it is all not in effect.

Since God has made it impossible to complete certain parts of the law, such as the parts that require Levites, the conclusion is that none of the law is in effect.


Most people wouldn't say that a position of not keeping any of the law of Moses is legalism.

You have said that we are to keep the dietary laws, so I'm asking you what those laws are. I'm also bringing up implications of those laws, such as the potluck scenario of above. Is that what you're calling legalism?


We're talking about a lot of things in addition to unclean meats. Do you regard all dietary laws as equally important?


I do not insist on keeping instructions from the law of Moses. But again, I'm wondering what it is that I write that you see as legalism

Here you go again. Insisting that if anyone keeps the 10 commandments must keep laws that have come to their natural end. Do you have deacons inspecting people as they come in to see if they have an "issue"? Neither do we.. It's ridiculous.

So your position is that the entirety of the laws given to the Israelites is required to be obeyed even though God wrote the 10 with His finger and everyone who keeps the 10 must obey them all. That is nothing but legalism as those laws have come to their natural end. So your position is that you break them all, so who cares? In for a penny, in for a pound. I'll break them all and Jesus will just keep on forgiving me for deliberately sinning.

The new covenant was given to the Jews, to Jeremiah to be specific. Therefore how does it apply to you? It's another OT command given to the Jews. It's another promise to them that they will all know the Lord just like Jesus said in John 17:3 that knowing God is life eternal. All promises given to the Jews just like Ezekiel 36: 25-27. Like me you're a Gentile so how do promises given to Jews apply to you?

 

[Leaf473]

Here you go again. Insisting that if anyone keeps the 10 commandments must keep laws that have come to their natural end.

Well, not quite I'm saying that the entire law, including the 10 commandments, is a unit.

So people can keep parts of it if they choose, sure. It's the teaching that certain parts remain and certain parts have passed away that I disagree with.

Do you have deacons inspecting people as they come in to see if they have an "issue"?

No.

Neither do we.. It's ridiculous.

I agree. That's why I was asking if it was a dietary law.

Is it a dietary law? If so, how do you and the people around you put it into practice?

So your position is that the entirety of the laws given to the Israelites is required to be obeyed...

No, that's the opposite of my position

...even though God wrote the 10 with His finger and everyone who keeps the 10 must obey them all.

No. You can keep whatever laws you want. It's teaching other people that they have to keep the same ones that you do that I disagree with.

That is nothing but legalism as those laws have come to their natural end.

I can see why you would think that would be legalism, but it's not what I'm saying

So your position is that you break them all, so who cares?

Not quite. The letter of the law has been fulfilled. But it has lots of great principles in it.

In for a penny, in for a pound. I'll break them all and Jesus will just keep on forgiving me for deliberately sinning.

If a laws don't apply to us, then it's not sin.

The new covenant was given to the Jews, to Jeremiah to be specific.

Well, it was given to the people of Israel and the people of Judah.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:31 - New International Reader's Version

“The days are coming,” announces the LORD. “I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel. I will also make it with the people of Judah.

www.biblegateway.com

Therefore how does it apply to you?

Because Paul tells the Corinthians - gentiles - that when they partake of the cup of the table of the Lord, they are partaking of the New Covenant.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 11:25 - New International Reader's Version

In the same way, after supper he took the cup. He said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Every time you drink it, do it in memory of me.”

www.biblegateway.com

Paul also tells us that we have been joined to Israel, and we enjoy the life-giving sap.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:17 - New International Reader's Version

Some of the natural branches have been broken off. You are a wild olive branch. But you have been joined to the tree with the other branches. Now you enjoy the life-giving sap of the olive tree root.

www.biblegateway.com

It's another OT command given to the Jews.

It looks to me more like a prophecy than a command.

It's another promise to them that they will all know the Lord just like Jesus said in John 17:3 that knowing God is life eternal. All promises given to the Jews just like Ezekiel 36: 25-27. Like me you're a Gentile so how do promises given to Jews apply to you?

Ezekiel 36 looks like it has some spiritual blessings, but also some physical blessings relating to physical Israel.

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 36:24 - New International Reader's Version

“ ‘ “I will take you out of the nations. I will gather you together from all the countries. I will bring you back into your own land.

www.biblegateway.com

The principles of all of the law and the prophets apply to us.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New International Reader's Version

In everything, do to others what you would want them to do to you. This is what is written in the Law and in the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Duplicate post

 

[Gary K]

Well, not quite I'm saying that the entire law, including the 10 commandments, is a unit.

So people can keep parts of it if they choose, sure. It's the teaching that certain parts remain and certain parts have passed away that I disagree with.


No.


I agree. That's why I was asking if it was a dietary law.

Is it a dietary law? If so, how do you and the people around you put it into practice?


No, that's the opposite of my position


No. You can keep whatever laws you want. It's teaching other people that they have to keep the same ones that you do that I disagree with.


I can see why you would think that would be legalism, but it's not what I'm saying


Not quite. The letter of the law has been fulfilled. But it has lots of great principles in it.


If a laws don't apply to us, then it's not sin.


Well, it was given to the people of Israel and the people of Judah.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:31 - New International Reader's Version

“The days are coming,” announces the LORD. “I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel. I will also make it with the people of Judah.

www.biblegateway.com

Because Paul tells the Corinthians - gentiles - that when they partake of the cup of the table of the Lord, they are partaking of the New Covenant.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 11:25 - New International Reader's Version

In the same way, after supper he took the cup. He said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Every time you drink it, do it in memory of me.”

www.biblegateway.com

Paul also tells us that we have been joined to Israel, and we enjoy the life-giving sap.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:17 - New International Reader's Version

Some of the natural branches have been broken off. You are a wild olive branch. But you have been joined to the tree with the other branches. Now you enjoy the life-giving sap of the olive tree root.

www.biblegateway.com

It looks to me more like a prophecy than a command.


Ezekiel 36 looks like it has some spiritual blessings, but also some physical blessings relating to physical Israel.

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 36:24 - New International Reader's Version

“ ‘ “I will take you out of the nations. I will gather you together from all the countries. I will bring you back into your own land.

www.biblegateway.com

The principles of all of the law and the prophets apply to us.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New International Reader's Version

In everything, do to others what you would want them to do to you. This is what is written in the Law and in the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

So you can teach people to break God's law but don't think I should witness as to the truth of God's law. How generous of you.

How do you reach the point of saying the 10 commandments don't apply to you?

Luke 16: 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Have heaven and earth passed away yet? The word translated as tittle comes from the following:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02762
κεραία keraía, ker-ah'-yah
feminine of a presumed derivative of the base of 2768;
something horn-like, i.e. (specially) the apex of a Hebrew letter (figuratively, the least particle):--tittle.

So Jesus, who knows more about God's law than everyone on earth put together, says it's easier for heaven and earth to pass away for even the smallest part of a Hebrew letter to disappear. Your desire to escape God's law is becoming very clear.

Read my opening post in the "Jesus and sin" thread and see what our issues with keeping the law of God actually are.

 

[Leaf473]

So you can teach people to break God's law...

No, that's not what I said. We are discussing what laws apply to us today

...but don't think I should witness as to the truth of God's law. How generous of you.

How do you reach the point of saying the 10 commandments don't apply to you?

Luke 16: 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Because the entire law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments, are a single unit. It is all in effect, or none of it is in effect.

If any part of it is no longer in effect, then heaven and earth have passed away, or all has been accomplished.

Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

Possibly. Jesus may be using that as an idiom for great upheaval.

The same idea is used here

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 13:10 - New International Reader's Version

All the stars in the sky will stop giving their light. The sun will be darkened as soon as it rises. The moon will not shine.

www.biblegateway.com

The word translated as tittle comes from the following:

[*StrongsGreek*]
02762
κεραία keraía, ker-ah'-yah
feminine of a presumed derivative of the base of 2768;
something horn-like, i.e. (specially) the apex of a Hebrew letter (figuratively, the least particle):--tittle.

So Jesus, who knows more about God's law than everyone on earth put together, says it's easier for heaven and earth to pass away for even the smallest part of a Hebrew letter to disappear.

This reinforces the idea that the law is a single unit. No part of it can pass away until heaven and Earth pass away.



Do you agree that at least some part of the law passed away or "came to a natural end"?

Your desire to escape God's law is becoming very clear.

My desire is to deal with all of the scriptures in a consistent fashion.

Read my opening post in the "Jesus and sin" thread and see what our issues with keeping the law of God actually are.

Okay, I'll check it out

Please remember that the issue we are discussing is which parts of the law, if any, apply to us today.

You have said that it's the Ten Commandments and the dietary laws. Please define what you mean by dietary laws. Thanks!

 

[Leaf473]

Read my opening post in the "Jesus and sin" thread and see what our issues with keeping the law of God actually are.

I read the opening post, it reminded me of this

Bible Gateway passage: James 1:14-15 - New International Reader's Version

But each person is tempted by their own evil desires. These desires lead them on and drag them away. When these desires are allowed to remain, they lead to sin. And when sin is allowed to remain and grow, it leads to death.

www.biblegateway.com

How does that relate to what laws we are to keep today?

 

[Leaf473]

@Gary K, my man,

Did you want to respond to this?

Is it a dietary law? If so, how do you and the people around you put it into practice?

 

[Gary K]

I read the opening post, it reminded me of this

Bible Gateway passage: James 1:14-15 - New International Reader's Version

But each person is tempted by their own evil desires. These desires lead them on and drag them away. When these desires are allowed to remain, they lead to sin. And when sin is allowed to remain and grow, it leads to death.

www.biblegateway.com

How does that relate to what laws we are to keep today?

Because we have a sinful nature we do the same thing the devil has done. We make ourselves our own little gods and trust in our own power to keep the law of God, unless we are truly converted and fully turn control of our lives over to God. Then we have the new heart that allows us to keep the 10 commandments. We are then born again as Paul talks about in Galatians 5 in which we break no law which includes the 10 commandments. Then we need look for no loopholes to get out of keeping the 10 commandments for we keep them like Jesus did through the same power He possessed. We are made partakers of the divine nature.

1Peter 1: 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The word grace in verse 2 comes from the same Greek word I emphasized in my thread "Is sinning necessary".

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

Notice also that Peter agrees with Jesus that knowing God and Jesus, personally. is life eternal as Jesus says in Luke 17: 3. This theme is found in both the OT and NT. So it covers both covenants.

 

[Gary K]

@Gary K, my man,

Did you want to respond to this?

No. It's useless wrangling because we see things so differently. If you accept my last post the answer will become clear to you.

 

[Leaf473]

Because we have a sinful nature we do the same thing the devil has done. We make ourselves our own little gods and trust in our own power to keep the law of God, unless we are truly converted and fully turn control of our lives over to God.

Then we have the new heart that allows us to keep the 10 commandments.

And the dietary laws?

We are then born again as Paul talks about in Galatians 5 in which we break no law which includes the 10 commandments. Then we need look for no loopholes to get out of keeping the 10 commandments for we keep them like Jesus did through the same power He possessed. We are made partakers of the divine nature.

1Peter 1: 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The word grace in verse 2 comes from the same Greek word I emphasized in my thread "Is sinning necessary".

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

Notice also that Peter agrees with Jesus that knowing God and Jesus, personally. is life eternal as Jesus says in Luke 17: 3. This theme is found in both the OT and NT. So it covers both covenants.

The issue we are discussing is what laws out of the law of Moses we are to keep today.

The issue is not "should we follow God's instructions?"

Peace be with you, my man

 

[Leaf473]

No. It's useless wrangling because we see things so differently. If you accept my last post the answer will become clear to you.

The answer to the question, "is Leviticus 15:12 a dietary law" will become clear if I accept your post? How you and the people around you put it into practice will also become clear?

It's completely up to you whether we continue or not, Gary, my brother!

 

[Divide]

Because we have a sinful nature we do the same thing the devil has done. We make ourselves our own little gods and trust in our own power to keep the law of God, unless we are truly converted and fully turn control of our lives over to God. Then we have the new heart that allows us to keep the 10 commandments. We are then born again as Paul talks about in Galatians 5 in which we break no law which includes the 10 commandments. Then we need look for no loopholes to get out of keeping the 10 commandments for we keep them like Jesus did through the same power He possessed. We are made partakers of the divine nature.

Yes we are partakers of the divine nature. That is in our spirit. Then we make our soul subject to the spirit through sanctification. We don't get a new heart the day we get born again. (I didn't. it took a bit of time). We get saved, then we begin to follow God. We immerse ourselve in His word and prayer in spirit.

I was the same old guy after I got saved. I had the same heart. I didn't suddenly become giving. I didn't suddenly become more loving or compassionate. Cry during a movie, ha! I'm a man and always have been. I simply made time for God and diligently read His word and went stumbling on from there largely clueless. I began to learn. The Lord began to let me see things and understand why that is the good thing or good way.

The Lord started teaching me about Love and compassion. Everytime I'd pick up the bible he'd point out something about love, or when I went to youtube to watch some messages, it would be about love. Then one day the Passion of the Christ became available to watch for free. So I watched it.

That was the first movie that I have ever shed a tear to. It was sort of a milestone because I had never done that before. So I realized that my heart was changing and it was apparent. It used to be I would not have (too much man! Lol!) But I was like that's not how I react? Whats going on here. It's my heart. But this happened over 2 or 3 years. So it took some time and must be a part of the sanctification process. But the flesh or the soul are not in agreement with the spirit at first. My spirit partakes of the divine nature, not my soul or flesh. It is written that we are to be led by the spirit. I don't think this means the Holy Spirit, I mean our new spirit that was given to us. The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the flesh, right? But the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit...and there is divine partaking right there. If one's own spirit leads us He will go directly to the Holy Spirit. So either spirit is ok to follow and to be led by.

Because with our new spirit, all things have become new (spiritually) and the Lord sees our spirit as righteous. But it says that the Lord looks to heart so that begs the question....

What is the heart? I have a feeling that we are not talking about the heart of our flesh here. It never our heart is our soul or spirit. So what is it? It's spiritual for sure so...what?

I'm guessing that our heart is the combined interaction of spirt/soul/body working together and from what heartmath.org says, our heart thinks for itself. And our heart speaks to us. But! It doesnt think the same way as our carnal mind does. It's more like an intuition when it speaks to you...

Or so it seems to me.
What do you think?

 

[Gary K]

And the dietary laws?


The issue we are discussing is what laws out of the law of Moses we are to keep today.

The issue is not "should we follow God's instructions?"

Peace be with you, my man

And the dietary laws?


The issue we are discussing is what laws out of the law of Moses we are to keep today.

The issue is not "should we follow God's instructions?"

Peace be with you, my man

I think it's time to close off all discussion between us. I have shown how we are made partakers of the divine nature and can keep God's law and you have no comment on it at all. I am sorry to say I don't see any reason to continue for the gap between our positions is so vast there is zero common ground. All we will continue to do is talk past each other.

 

[Gary K]

Yes we are partakers of the divine nature. That is in our spirit. Then we make our soul subject to the spirit through sanctification. We don't get a new heart the day we get born again. (I didn't. it took a bit of time). We get saved, then we begin to follow God. We immerse ourselve in His word and prayer in spirit.

I was the same old guy after I got saved. I had the same heart. I didn't suddenly become giving. I didn't suddenly become more loving or compassionate. Cry during a movie, ha! I'm a man and always have been. I simply made time for God and diligently read His word and went stumbling on from there largely clueless. I began to learn. The Lord began to let me see things and understand why that is the good thing or good way.

The Lord started teaching me about Love and compassion. Everytime I'd pick up the bible he'd point out something about love, or when I went to youtube to watch some messages, it would be about love. Then one day the Passion of the Christ became available to watch for free. So I watched it.

That was the first movie that I have ever shed a tear to. It was sort of a milestone because I had never done that before. So I realized that my heart was changing and it was apparent. It used to be I would not have (too much man! Lol!) But I was like that's not how I react? Whats going on here. It's my heart. But this happened over 2 or 3 years. So it took some time and must be a part of the sanctification process. But the flesh or the soul are not in agreement with the spirit at first. My spirit partakes of the divine nature, not my soul or flesh. It is written that we are to be led by the spirit. I don't think this means the Holy Spirit, I mean our new spirit that was given to us. The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the flesh, right? But the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit...and there is divine partaking right there. If one's own spirit leads us He will go directly to the Holy Spirit. So either spirit is ok to follow and to be led by.

Because with our new spirit, all things have become new (spiritually) and the Lord sees our spirit as righteous. But it says that the Lord looks to heart so that begs the question....

What is the heart? I have a feeling that we are not talking about the heart of our flesh here. It never our heart is our soul or spirit. So what is it? It's spiritual for sure so...what?

I'm guessing that our heart is the combined interaction of spirt/soul/body working together and from what heartmath.org says, our heart thinks for itself. And our heart speaks to us. But! It doesnt think the same way as our carnal mind does. It's more like an intuition when it speaks to you...

Or so it seems to me.
What do you think?

Actually we do get a new heart the moment we are converted. The story of the thief on the cross illustrates this. The eyes of his heart were opened by the HS and he recognized in Jesus the Savior of the world. In the short time he had left his life changed and he immediately began to witness for Jesus.

Luke 23: 38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 ¶And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We cannot separate justification and sanctification and Paul explains why.

1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The word translated as righteousness from the Greek means:

[*StrongsGreek*]
01343
δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342;
equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

Jesus is our one stop shopping center, so to speak, for all things spiritual.