Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Valletta]

If you think that Hamas is the only enemy that Israel is going to have after this debacle and it will be an end to the violence then you're as foolish as the Israeli leadership

Where did you get that from? I thought my position was made clear in numerous posts, for example, in #1,168 I said:

"Israel needs to quickly eliminate Hamas. There have been seventy some attacks on American forces and Iran and Hezbollah are eager to try and destroy Israel and the United States."

 

[truthpls]

Saul and his army were lying? Where do you get this from?

Israel today killing civilians is not ordered by God. Anyone claiming that is lying

 

[rjs330]

Wrong tense. They won't, not wouldn't. And they'll have more support because of what's happening. But interesting for you to admit that all this is a complete waste of lives.

Then it's a good thing Israel isn't killing everyone then right. They are going after Hamas. And if they can get rid of Hamas from Gaza things will work out better for everyone. Getting rid of Hamas is the only answer here.

 

[rjs330]

Not that I'm aware. And I'm not talking simply about the accuracy. You reject numbers complaining that they aren't that high. Why does the number matter?

Because they are being used as propaganda to try and get Israel to let Hamas be. The higher the number can be claimed the more pressure is exerted.

 

[Vanellus]

Even some of the sickest and most twisted human beings in history have not shown such cowardice as Hamas. Hamas is afraid to take on Israeli soldiers one on one so they attack the babies and the elderly and celebrate their beheading and torture.

The story about beheading babies has now been admitted as false by the mainstream Israeli newspaper Haaretz. Maybe it is time for you to admit you were wrong here.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...be24f0000?lts=1701879398744&lts=1701879937236

 

[rjs330]

The increase in support is caused in large part by the overly extreme violence meted out by Israel to the general population of Gaza

What exactly is a commensurate responce?

 

[rjs330]

There was a righteous reason. That has nothing to do with Israel today whatsoever

How do you know?

Then you do not know Him

I apparently didn't explain my point very well and quite frankly probably screwed up my typing in the process. God knows there will not be peace. He loves everyone of every stripe and every nation. The fact that he does doesn't make his punishments any easier. There will not be peace in earth until Christ returns and forces it on everyone. God declaires that government is his sword of vengeance upon evil doers. And it's difficult to be more evil than Hamas and by extension their supporters.

You are not the judge and the many thousands of innocent children were not the wicked ones here.

Yet here we both are declaring who wicked. And yes we most certainly can call evil out when we see it.

Baloney! Only in the very end AFTER they accept Jesus!

So you agree that it happens. I don't know what's so wrong with my statement about it happening. This is all leading up to the great Day of the Lord. All of it. We know that Israel will continue to exist and we know the world will launch an attack on Israel and Christ will come and destroy their enemies.

No one has any mandate to kill innocents.

God didn't put a limit on the governments action to protect their people from evil.

You know I was going to keep going, but we are getting way off topic here.

Suffice it to say you don't agree with what Israel is doing to defeat Hamas and I have no problem with it.

We don't need to have an end times lesson on this thread.

 

[rjs330]

Showing strength and acting in a manner which encourages more of your enemies...Well, do you think that's the same thing.

Nope, you don't understand the culture that exists there. The culture of strength and death. They only respect strength not weakness because that is their culture. Being weak leads to being attacked. They only understand strength. They smelled weakness so they attacked Israel.

You don't understand the enemies at all.

 

[rjs330]

The proof is in the pudding and a tree is known by it's fruit. The actions of Israel spoke loud and clear

Yes they are trying very hard not to kill civilians. Exactly the opposite of Hamas. So we know who the real rotten tree is.

 

[rjs330]

If you think that Hamas is the only enemy that Israel is going to have after this debacle and it will be an end to the violence then you're as foolish as the Israeli leadership

Hamas' wasn't the only enemy before they murdered people. In fact their attacks in Israel ENCOURAGED others.

Did you see the Palestinian reception to the terrorists released by Israel. Terrorists who murdered innocent people through the years or at least attempted to? Cheering yelling and shouts for more bloodshed. They murdered Jews before and will murder them again. These people don't listen to reason or common sense. They murder rape and burn. Thats it. The crowds cheered and welcomed them as heros for their wanton rape and murder.
They were encouraged to do more. There were young teens that tried to kill Israelis or did kill them. No you have no concept of their cultures of death.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Almost all Arab states are pro Palestinian.

Then why is there not one Muslim country that accepts Palestinian refugees? There is one Jew nation, and that Jew nation, Israel, has done more for the Palestinian people, than any other nation ever. So it's insulting that the Palestinian people throw stones at the Jews when in fact Jews are the only group that has been trying to protect them in any administrative way by providing food, water and resources to the people that are there. The reason that the Muslim countries are not accepting Palestinians, is because the Muslim countries know how radical and dangerous the Palestinians are. For that reason Egypt and Jordan don't want them there.

I wish Hamas released the hostages and surrended. But that is not happening, and unless Israel wipes Hamas out, they will be repeats of Oct 7th.

If only Israel could destroy Hamas without harming any civilians. Unfortunaly that is not possible. Sadly innocent Gazan civilians will die also (and I wish they did not). Unfortunately in every war, in order to destroy evil, civilians die. That is truly tragic, but if Hamas is not destroyed, they will keep attacking Israel and we will have repeats of Oct 7th but on much bigger scale. When the allies tried to stop Nazis, 2 million German civilians died, even those who helped Jews to hide from Nazis. But I see no one protesting against that. Or should have the allies leave the Nazis win, at least no innocent civilians would have died, or wait, they would, even more, but on our side. So what do you want Israel to do? Just stand and watch?

One more thing.
Egypt controlled Gaza from 1948 to 1967, assuring that a Palestinian state would not arise there. During its governance of Gaza, Palestinian refugees were kept in squalid camps and Gaza had one of the lowest standards of living in the world. Life in Gaza improved dramatically upon capture by Israel in 1967. For the next 20 years, until the first intifada, Gaza had one of the highest economic growth rates in the world, universities, hospitals, schools, etc were built, gaza went from almost no indoor plumbing to nearly univesal (outside of the UNRWA-run refugee towns), and so on. Menachem Begin sought to return Gaza to Egypt in 1979 as part of the Camp David accords, after which Egypt could have helped Gazans as much as it wanted in any way it wanted. Egypt refused. Egypt currently refuses to temporarily open its borders to Gazan refugees to ease the humanitarian crisis.
But sure, Egypt is a would-be savior of Gaza

 

[Vanellus]

Then why is there not one Muslim country that accepts Palestinian refugees?

Hmm!

Between 2.1 and 3.24 million of the diaspora population live as refugees in neighboring Jordan;[51][52] over 1 million live between Syria and Lebanon, and about 750,000 live in Saudi Arabia, with Chile holding the largest Palestinian diaspora concentration (around half a million) outside of the Arab world.

Palestinians - Wikipedia

No doubt you will define "accept" to mean something different in any reply you make. But the Arab countries (and the Palestinians) think that their rightful home is in Palestine, now called Israel, after the land was taken from them by brute force by Israelis.

The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when around 130[1] fighters from the Zionist paramilitary groups Irgun and Lehi killed at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children, in Deir Yassin, a village of roughly 600 people near Jerusalem, despite having earlier agreed to a peace pact. The massacre occurred while Jewish militia sought to relieve the blockade of Jerusalem during the civil war that preceded the end of British rule in Palestine.[4]

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia

Note these murderers were "fighters" not "terrorists".

The right of return is a principle in international law which guarantees everyone's right of voluntary return to, or re-entry to, their country of origin or of citizenship. The right of return is part of the broader human rights concept freedom of movement and is also related to the legal concept of nationality.[1] While many states afford their citizens the right of abode, the right of return is not restricted to citizenship or nationality in the formal sense.[2] It allows stateless persons and for those born outside their country to return for the first time, so long as they have maintained a "genuine and effective link".[

Right of return - Wikipedia

 

[wing2000]

If only Israel could destroy Hamas without harming any civilians. Unfortunaly that is not possible. Sadly innocent Gazan civilians will die also (and I wish they did not). Unfortunately in every war, in order to destroy evil, civilians die. That is truly tragic, but if Hamas is not destroyed, they will keep attacking Israel and we will have repeats of Oct 7th but on much bigger scale. When the allies tried to stop Nazis, 2 million German civilians died, even those who helped Jews to hide from Nazis. But I see no one protesting against that. Or should have the allies leave the Nazis win, at least no innocent civilians would have died, or wait, they would, even more, but on our side. So what do you want Israel to do? Just stand and watch?

Yes, civilians die in every conflict. However, civilians are dying at higher rate than in most conflicts. And I think the main reason for that is the fact that Palestinians have no where to go. By contrast, during the 2nd battle for Falujah, the US military was able to evacuate 90% of the city as former Infantry officer Seth Molten notes in a recent op-ed:

Flashback to Fallujah, the Marines recognized that the war had changed from the early days of the Iraq invasion. No longer were we fighting a traditional military-on-military battle, but rather a counterinsurgency fight against militants operating amongst, and recruiting from, the civilian population. In the six months between that first Fallujah failure and second victory, Marines made a civilian evacuation and intensive humanitarian aid central to their military strategy, separating innocents from militants.

Dropping leaflets, broadcasting announcements and, critically, providing safe passage and safe haven, the Marines evacuated civilians from Fallujah so effectively that, by the time they went back in, up to 90% of the city had left. Only the hardened insurgents remained to be eliminated.

The Palestinians have no such choice. Nor does Israel have any other option given Egypt and Jordan will not accept any mass migration of Palestinians. So Israel is left with the challenge of eliminating a fighting force that not only blends in with a highly concetnrated civilian population, but intentionally baits the Israelis into striking sensitive targets such as hospitals, schools, etc. And when Israel inevitably strikes Hamas in or near these targets, the globally community rightfully protest the loss of civlian lives.

Once more, with every civilian killed, 10 will end up joining or supporting Hamas.

As Molten notes:

Famed U.S. General Stanley McChrystal called this problem “insurgent math.” He estimated that for every single innocent civilian killed, the insurgency recruits ten new adherents.

One of General McChrystal’s aides in Afghanistan calculated that at the beginning of that war there were 1,500 to 2,000 insurgents. Four years later, there were 30,000 to 35,000. A 2010 report found that for each incident involving civilian casualties in Afghanistan, there would be at least one additional violent clash in that same district over the next six weeks. The authors referred to this as the 'revenge' effect.

The Lesson Israel Must Learn From America's Fight in Fallujah

Congressman Seth Moulton on the vital lesson that the Israeli military must learn from the U.S. marines in Iraq.

time.com

It's a terrible and tragic predicament that, I would argue, no other country has faced.

 

[Vanellus]

Do we know for sure that "Hamas intentionally baits the Israelis into striking sensitive targets such as hospitals, schools, etc.". The Israeli ambassador to the UK in an extended interview recently referred repeatedly to a "terror city" under Gaza city. In fact she said "terror" as often as possible. Have we seen this terror city? Under al Shifa all we have seen so far looked very like the underground bunker and associated tunnel(s) which Israel built there in the 1980s. And there is the proportionality principle. Attacking a hospital containing 1000s of civilians to get at a small (single figures) number of Hamas which may or may not have been there at the time of the attack breaks this principle. It's not enough that the IDF thinks there is a Hamas command complex there - it actually has to be there to justify an attack on the hospital

Israel’s raid on al-Shifa Hospital: Here’s what you need to know

‘All men 16 years and above, raise your hands’: how al-Shifa raid unfolded

 

[essentialsaltes]

Hundreds of staff at U.S. Jewish organizations sign letter for cease-fire​

More than 500 employees of 142 U.S. Jewish organizations — from synagogues and advocacy groups to seminaries and museums — released a letter Thursday to President Biden calling for a cease-fire and the return of hostages, an effort to reflect the diversity of U.S. Jewish opinion on the Israel-Gaza war.
Dozens of signers wrote “anonymous,” which organizers said reflected the “immense pressure to remain silent” facing them because “many of the organizations they work for — and the donors who fund them — have not called for a ceasefire.”

News investigations point to Israeli tank shell killing journalist in Lebanon in October​

The strikes on Oct. 13 in southern Lebanon killed Reuters videographer Issam Abdallah, 37, and severely injured Agence France-Presse photographer Christina Assi, 28. Other journalists from Reuters, AFP and Al Jazeera were also injured.

AFP said its report had concluded that the [tank] munition that killed Abdallah was of Israeli origin and “is not used by any other groups in the region,” and that “the strikes were deliberate and targeted,” coming close together in time and space and hitting journalists who “were clearly identified as press, away from any military activity.”

Unexploded bombs, many U.S.-made, could make parts of Gaza uninhabitable​

An estimated 80 percent of Gazans have been displaced by the war, alongside the three percent of people who lived in the strip who have been killed or injured.

Reversing that displacement would be a mammoth task. Buildings have been leveled or made structurally unsound. Infrastructure, including for water and sewage, has been destroyed. Many weapons that analysts say have been used in Gaza, including the controversial incendiary white phosphorus, can seep into the water supply.

Unexploded ordnance might be the most pervasive threat. Even during times of relative peace in Gaza, leftover bombs from previous rounds of fighting regularly kill and maim. The problem is now exponentially worse

Diseases such as hepatitis are spreading in refugee camps, doctors warn​

U.N. chief urges Security Council to ‘avert humanitarian catastrophe’ in Gaza​

 

[wing2000]

Do we know for sure that "Hamas intentionally baits the Israelis into striking sensitive targets such as hospitals, schools, etc.".

Nothing in war is known "for sure" until after the war ends, and even then, 3rd parties may not be able to independently verify claims. However, there was in fact a tunnel found on the hospital grounds. What lies beneath may or may not be known to the Israelis (obviously the IDF is not going to compromise it's intel sources and capabilities). I know if I were an Israeli commander, I would not be sending my troops into the tunnels to find out. The last news release I saw was based on drones were inserted into the entrance, with images of a closed, heavily foritified door leading further into the tunnel.

 

[essentialsaltes]

CNN has a story on testimony presented to the UN and other orgs about "rape and sexual violence inflicted by Hamas". It comes with an editors' note warning about the graphic nature of the contents.

 

[truthpls]

I apparently didn't explain my point very well and quite frankly probably screwed up my typing in the process. God knows there will not be peace. He loves everyone of every stripe and every nation. The fact that he does doesn't make his punishments any easier. There will not be peace in earth until Christ returns and forces it on everyone. God declaires that government is his sword of vengeance upon evil doers. And it's difficult to be more evil than Hamas and by extension their supporters.

Babies and women and children and civilians are not the evildoers referred to. That would be actual wicked people doing actual bad things. That is a total misapplication if you try to associate that with Israel

So you agree that it happens. I don't know what's so wrong with my statement about it happening. This is all leading up to the great Day of the Lord. All of it. We know that Israel will continue to exist and we know the world will launch an attack on Israel and Christ will come and destroy their enemies.

He does not destroy the enemies of Israel today. They are an unbelieving nation. He destroys enemies after they accept Jesus, that is a different matter. Those enemies will be followers of Satan and attacking not because of usual nation to nation conflicts. They will be attacking God, and trying to finish off Israel that has already at the time been mostly killed! They will be attacking therefore Good and His people. Not like today whatsoever. In fact probably one reason God allows or sends Israel into that horrible time of death and judgment is because of what they do today. So trying to pretend God is now on their side is absurd.

God didn't put a limit on the governments action to protect their people from evil.

Yes. Plenty. Jesus fled to Egypt because of an evil government. That means God was not with them or expecting obedience to them. He expects defiance sometimes. He even demands defiance in the end period against all governments forcing a mark on people. Daniel defied Babylon. The apostles defied Rome and Israel. Jesus defied the rulers of Israel as well. We need to obey God RATHER than men.

Suffice it to say you don't agree with what Israel is doing to defeat Hamas and I have no problem with it.

What they are doing is against God and man. They seem to just hope they also get some Hamas in there at the same time if they are so lucky.

We don't need to have an end times lesson on this thread.

When talking about the gathering armies and nations aligning because of the terror in Gaza, yes, the end time looms large. It is the elephant in the room. It also explains why Israel is His enemy in what they are doing now! Unsaved enemies of God.

 

[truthpls]

Yes they are trying very hard not to kill civilians. Exactly the opposite of Hamas. So we know who the real rotten tree is.

Try not bombing them at home and in the streets and in medical center areas and while fleeing etc etc Meanwhile, when Israel does these things and more, any pretense they are humane is propaganda onlly

 

[civilwarbuff]

highlighting a nonsensical position.

So that's why you use them.....to highlight your nonsensical positions. That clears up a lot.....thanks.