Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Valletta]

I think that the rest of the world needs to lighten up or get their hands dirty too. If you back people into a corner, they get desperate. If comes to an existential threat to Israel's existence, don't be surprised if they use the nuclear option. They don't have to use it on Gaza. Drop one on Tehran and other Iranian targets would be a start. I'm not advocating this at all. WW3 will come soon enough as it is. However, pushing Israel to the brink may trigger it earlier than anyone wants.

Exactly. Talk is cheap.

 

[Jimmy It]

Palestine is not a country
For centuries prior to World War I, the Ottoman Turks–a Muslim empire–controlled a vast area of North Africa, Europe, and the Levant that included Palestine. The Arabs and Jews of Palestine lived there as subjects of Ottoman rule. The Ottomans did not establish an independent Palestinian state, or a Jewish one.
Full article https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-is-there-no-palestinian-state/

 

[Pommer]

Palestine is not a country
For centuries prior to World War I, the Ottoman Turks–a Muslim empire–controlled a vast area of North Africa, Europe, and the Levant that included Palestine. The Arabs and Jews of Palestine lived there as subjects of Ottoman rule. The Ottomans did not establish an independent Palestinian state, or a Jewish one.
Full article https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-is-there-no-palestinian-state/

People lived in the area, whether they had a common flag or nation anthem or central government don’t enter into the picture. They were there.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Nonsense.

You and I both know that if terrorists based in the Manhattan had attacked Canada and then Canada firebombed Manhattan into oblivion, you would be crying in outrage at the over-reaction. And the fact that this is an unrealistic example is not the point.

It is patently silly to believe that the mere fact that Hamas instigated this latest round of fighting gives Israel free moral licence to take whatever measures they see fit in response.

You are defending an absurd position.


Again, complete nonsense. Imagine that the Allies had nuked Germany into oblivion the day after the invasion of Poland, killing tens of millions of German citizens. That would be a clear over-reaction and a gross violation of any reasonable principle of proportionality.

Your asking me for "evidence" that Hamas is not responsible for all the casualties is like asking for "evidence" that it is not ok to walk to up a complete stranger and shoot them dead for no reason. It is a category error on your part - a basic moral principle, such as the principle that a grossly exaggerated violent response to a provocation is unethical, is not something that you support with evidence. It is instead a principle that any reasonable human being would embrace.

Do you expect "evidence" that it is unethical to lie? That is unethical to cheat on your spouse? These are not questions that you can demand evidence for - they are basic ethical principles that human beings extract from life experience.

No one seemed to worry about German or Japanese casualties during WW2. There was just tremendous relief and joy that the war was over. Moral outrage is easy when you are not in the firing line, when your family has not been burned alive or kidnapped and used as hostages. In case you had not noticed, this is a war. Right now, Armenia is under attack by Azerbaijan. Muslims against Christians. Where is the outrage? Russia deliberately attacks civilian infrastructure and kills unarmed POWs. Outrage? Deafening silence. It's only Israel that must act according to an impossible standard set by armchair warriors far from the conflict. Israel will, and should, do what it takes to eliminate Hamas as a threat. It is immoral for the Israeli government to allow Hamas to continue its attacks.

Just one example. Hamas tunnels are dug under private dwellings as well as schools and such. If Israel blows up a tunnel, it may well affect the foundations of a home. Now who is at fault? Did you know that Hamas pays people to construct the tunnels, uses international aid funds to construct them and pays homeowners to allow the tunnel to go under their homes? This is a war unlike any other that I know of. Hamas started it, in case you forgot. Hamas has attacked Israel several times since taking control of Gaza. 7th October was a step too far. America invaded Afghanistan to root out Al Qaeda. Is that morally repugnant too? It was a disaster, as most American military adventures have been. "Pots and Kettles" comes to mind.

 

[Jimmy It]

People lived in the area, whether they had a common flag or nation anthem or central government don’t enter into the picture. They were there.

It is a given... people were there. People from a variety of places. It's what we are discussing.

 

[Aussie Pete]

People lived in the area, whether they had a common flag or nation anthem or central government don’t enter into the picture. They were there.

They could still be there. 25 % of Israel's population are Arabs. Most of those are Muslims. There was meant to be two states from the start. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia wanted to divvy up the land for themselves. What is now Jordan was supposed to be Palestinian. The Arab population left Israel at the behest of the invaders, because they fully expected to destroy Israel before it was established. Now the same Arabs, who still reject Israel's right to exist, want the land back. But not as neighbours. They will not be satisfied until Israel no longer exists. How do I know? They say so, and have been saying the same thing since 1948.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It is a given... people were there.

But for some of the people who were there, and owned land, and held deeds, there is no right to return.

 

[Vanellus]

Gee, you think we need reminding about who 'the bad guy' is? Don't talk nonsense. But knowing it cannot and should not be a reason to excuse any and all behaviour by 'the good guy'. But that's exactly what you are doing.

Both sides can be bad guys in a conflict.

 

[Vanellus]

Though well meant no doubt,
but Benjamin Netanyahu has made his mind up along with military.
Time will tell if he has the green light.

Netanyahu will sacrifice any number of Palestinians in trying to cling on to power.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Unfortunately, the response you are likely to get from that is 'Well, what about...the murderous terrorism and civilian murders that we see coming from Hamas.'

But any reasonable person would see that the one doesn't equate to the other. And that one is not a justification for the other. It's not morally permissible to say that 'we can do this because look what they did.' That drags you down to their position. Reach that point and you have lost. And Israel, as much as I support their position, is in very serious danger of losing the moral high ground. And thence losing support. And thus risking what they are trying to preserve.

I don't think Israel cares if they lose your support...after all, you don't support Hamas....so who cares?

 

[Valletta]

Both sides can be bad guys in a conflict.

We have seen the evil of Hamas, the rape,torture, butchery, and kidnapping of over a thousand babies, children, women, elderly, and others. The terrorists are holding hostages, and the old and sick have little time left without medical assistance. Hamas agreed to a pause but violated it and attacked Israelis. This is not a "conflict" of two sides, it is a hunt for some of the worst terrorists in the history of our world.

 

[Jimmy It]

But for some of the people who were there, and owned land, and held deeds, there is no right to return.

A big deal is made of Jan 6. Insurrection!
Many of these people voted for Hamas and would do so again. Jew hating, murderers.

This is from NPR so no one can claim that it is fox news or some other biased conservative publication.
I can find many liberal papers that will confirm or anyone can just search, does Hamas hate Israel.

Hamas has long, dark history of hatred for Israel

The group, founded in 1987, has vowed to annihilate Israel. Before this past weekend's attack, it was responsible for many suicide bombings and other deadly attacks on civilians and Israeli soldiers.

www.tpr.org

Hamas is the Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement, and a recognition of the group's roots and early ties to one of the Sunni world's most prominent groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in the 1920s.

The group has vowed to annihilate Israel and has been responsible for many suicide bombings and other deadly attacks on civilians and Israeli soldiers.

The U.S. State Department has designated Hamas a terrorist group in 1997. The European Union and other Western countries also consider it a terrorist organization.

Hamas won 2006 parliamentary elections elections and in 2007 violently seized control of the Gaza Strip from the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian Authority, dominated by rival Fatah movement, administers semi-autonomous areas of the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You may have seen what I posted earlier when our foreign minister urged Israel to show restraint. And urged for a cease fire. And she spoke as an Israeli supporter. A friend of that nation.

Do you know what will happen if they continue? They will lose the support of their friends. Friends who are trying to tell them that the price they extracting is too high.

Do you know who will be most pleased at that outcome? Can you possibly imagine? Do you know who is Israel's worst enemy as you read this? Israel.

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news...but we'll back Israel regardless of what they do.

We don't have any other allies in that region.

From a foreign policy standpoint, there's no upside to abandoning them.

 

[Jimmy It]

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news...but we'll back Israel regardless of what they do.

We don't have any other allies in that region.

From a foreign policy standpoint, there's no upside to abandoning them.

Kind of a quandary isn't it. It reminds me of a line in an old movie that aspired to achieve b grade.
"What do you do with a mad dog Harry? You shoot him, that's what you do."

 

[Robban]

Netanyahu will sacrifice any number of Palestinians in trying to cling on to power.

A reaction.

Amalek has long gone what is left is the Amalek within.

It severs the head from the body/heart, interlect from emotions.

 

[Vanellus]

A reaction.

Amalek has long gone what is left is the Amalek within.

It severs the head from the body/heart, intellect from emotions.

We have seen the evil of Hamas, the rape,torture, butchery, and kidnapping of over a thousand babies, children, women, elderly, and others. The terrorists are holding hostages, and the old and sick have little time left without medical assistance. Hamas agreed to a pause but violated it and attacked Israelis. This is not a "conflict" of two sides, it is a hunt for some of the worst terrorists in the history of our world.

There are quite a few Palestinians in Gaza "without medical assistance" courtesy of the IDF. Israel violated the truce by killing unnecessarily a nine year old boy on the West Bank before the attack in Jerusalem. And as I've pointed out GIs in Vietnam acted just as unspeakably as Hamas did - and got off scot free.

Indiscriminate bombing of densely populated residential areas is evil.

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one

Please no irrelevant quibbling about Isaac and Ishmael - the idea behind this Wilfrid Owen poem is that old men, not involved in actual fighting, care not for the lives of people - only their own life. Netanyahu is such an old man.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Nonsense.

You and I both know that if terrorists based in the Manhattan had attacked Canada and then Canada firebombed Manhattan into oblivion, you would be crying in outrage at the over-reaction. And the fact that this is an unrealistic example is not the point.

It is patently silly to believe that the mere fact that Hamas instigated this latest round of fighting gives Israel free moral licence to take whatever measures they see fit in response.

You are defending an absurd position.


Again, complete nonsense. Imagine that the Allies had nuked Germany into oblivion the day after the invasion of Poland, killing tens of millions of German citizens. That would be a clear over-reaction and a gross violation of any reasonable principle of proportionality.

Your asking me for "evidence" that Hamas is not responsible for all the casualties is like asking for "evidence" that it is not ok to walk to up a complete stranger and shoot them dead for no reason. It is a category error on your part - a basic moral principle, such as the principle that a grossly exaggerated violent response to a provocation is unethical, is not something that you support with evidence. It is instead a principle that any reasonable human being would embrace.

Do you expect "evidence" that it is unethical to lie? That is unethical to cheat on your spouse? These are not questions that you can demand evidence for - they are basic ethical principles that human beings extract from life experience.

So far you have only disagreed with my statement and offered imaginary scenarios to a real situation in an effort to justify your position. So far you are failing miserably. Care to try again? It is very entertaining.

 

[Robban]

There are quite a few Palestinians in Gaza "without medical assistance" courtesy of the IDF. Israel violated the truce by killing unnecessarily a nine year old boy on the West Bank before the attack in Jerusalem. And as I've pointed out GIs in Vietnam acted just as unspeakably as Hamas did - and got off scot free.

Indiscriminate bombing of densely populated residential areas is evil.

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one

Please no irrelevant quibbling about Isaac and Ishmael - the idea behind this Wilfrid Owen poem is that old men, not involved in actual fighting, care not for the lives of people - only their own life. Netanyahu is such an old man.

It was Netanyahu who brought up Amalek early in the conflict,
remember?
I do in no way support such actions that are taking place.

Now or at any time,
commiting wicked deeds is not a mark of strength.

All things have their time, jumping lights is not a good idea.

Ephraim did not wait for the green light and left Egypt before time
and on entering the land of Canaan were defeated in battle.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We cannot have a reasonable discussion when people are making arguments that are beyond ridiculous - how can we take anyone seriously who effectively argues that no matter how excessive Israel's response might be, all the deaths of Gazans are the moral responsibility of Hamas.

That, franky, is inane.

Imagine a scenario where Canada is a mighty military power and the US is much, much weaker. Now imagine that some American terrorists, whose base of operations is in Manhattan, sneak into Canada and brutally murder thousands. Imagine that Canada then firebombs Manhattan, arguing, legitimately, that the terrorists are hiding out under various Manhattan skyscrapers. And thousands and thousands of innocent Americans die.

Would you then argue "it's the fault of the terrorists"?

We all know the answer.

Nope.

Imagine American terrorists launched 13,000 rockets at Canadian civilians over the course of the last decade....and not only did we not do anything about it, we celebrated every time a Canadian died.

Now add a mass invasion of hundreds of American terrorists slaughtering, raping, and burning Canadian citizens.

Under those circumstances, I'd definitely understand Canada deciding it was the last straw and killing thousands.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because if a country kills all of the ”bad guys” the only “bad guys” left will be the one who killed all of the people.
They will have become the monster that they feared.

That's so deep.