Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Bradskii]

Common sense says destroy your enemy.

And common sense must ask...what cost are you prepared to pay?

 

[rjs330]

A few Christian voices:

“Gaza is a prison, an open prison. Two million people packed inside there with a very difficult economic and social perspective for the future,” -- Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa

“There is a siege from the sky, from the land, from the sea. Most of the people cannot use the Israeli border. The Egyptian border is closed most of the time. Usually when people ask what it is like to live in Gaza I say I’ve never been in a prison, but I live in one.” -- Gazan Pastor

"Gazans live like it's an open air prison since we can't leave. We can't visit relatives, look for work, medicine or good hospitals on the outside," -- Fr. Mario da Silva

"The Christians in Gaza belong to the oldest Christian community in the world, going back to the first century. In the fourth century, Gaza was a major Christian mission hub until 1948... The dire situation in Gaza, the largest open air prison in the world where they see the water there are polluted with high unemployment and five wars within 15 years.... They demand an end to the occupation, a just and lasting peace, so that they can keep their hope alive, where it's all started." -- Rev. Dr. Mitri Raheb

"The population of Gaza’s 2.3 million people are now living in an open-air prison... the Israeli-imposed Gaza blockade is a denial of basic human rights and amounts to collective punishment. -- Ghassan Tarazi, Palestinian Baptist

How they feel is irrelevant. It's not an open air prison. There are Palestinians all over the world. Now there's not a lot of places in that area that want them to come to their country, like Egypt. It's because the Palestinians are so radicalized. They live a life of blood, death and hate.

As I said before Palestine is a mess because of the Palestinians. Their choices, their way. Israel hasn't been there since 2005. But that hasn't stopped the Palestinians from attacking Israel or supporting the attacks and perpetuating the hate and desire to kill.

Palestine has received a lot of resources. If they squander it instead of using it to build a better life, that's on them. Look if you use water pipes for bombs and rockets you don't get to complain that you don't have enough water resources.

Even those Christians use words like most of the time. That's not a prison. It probably feels like a prison because of the conditions they find themselves in. But it's not a prison.

Also you can see the problems right now across the globe with Palestinians and their marches and protests.

They are actually very fortunate that Israel ISNT like them. Cause if she was. They would no longer exist. Israel doesn't t have to provide ANYTHING for Palestine. Yet they do.

 

[rjs330]

They don't differentiate. So you and I don't know. But as many agencies are saying that the death toll for children is around 4,000 then that might be a figure on which you can think on for a while. Is that number, assuming it's correct, acceptable? Of course it isn't.

Its unacceptable? How many are acceptable?

 

[JosephZ]

The people of Gaza voted a terrorist group into power. What did they expect?

Hamas only received 44.45% of the vote in 2006, but it gave them a majority of 74 seats in the 132 seat Palestinian Legislative Council at that time. Less than 15% of Gazans alive today voted for Hamas. In 2007, Hamas violently took control of Gaza.

Hamas gunmen seized military control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, executing Fatah rivals and provoking the collapse of their power-sharing Palestinian Authority government.

As Fatah’s last security command centers fell after four days of fighting, Hamas military men in black masks moved unchallenged across Gaza City, hunting down foes, blowing up homes and dragging the body of a top Fatah militant through the streets.

Firing mortars, grenade launchers and automatic weapons, Hamas fighters captured the Gaza City headquarters of the Preventive Security, Intelligence and National Security agencies Thursday afternoon, and executed some of their captives. The Presidential Guard compound fell late in the evening. All were controlled by Fatah.

Earlier in the day, Hamas overran the main Fatah compound in the southern city of Rafah, giving it full control of the border with Egypt, a source of the smuggled weapons that have expanded the movement’s arsenal in recent months.

Hamas fighters overran the headquarters amid mortar rounds and gunfire. They raised green Hamas flags over the shattered two-story compound, kneeled to the ground in prayer and marched handcuffed Fatah gunmen into the streets, some shirtless or in their underwear.

Hamas wins the battle for Gaza control

With his Fatah forces driven from the strip, Abbas dissolves the Cabinet but the Islamist premier vows to stay.

www.latimes.com

 

[Bradskii]

Its unacceptable? How many are acceptable?

There are two threads running on this topic. And in the other I said I would have baulked at 100. In fact I can't conceive of a situation where that number would be acceptable in any situation. 200 and it's a call for peace by any means. 300...something is seriously wrong when we get to figures like that where anyone can attempt to justify it.

And we are potentially talking about numbers in their thousands. At what point does even the most ardent Israel supporter say 'enough is enough.'

 

[truthpls]

There are two threads running on this topic. And in the other I said I would have baulked at 100. In fact I can't conceive of a situation where that number would be acceptable in any situation. 200 and it's a call for peace by any means. 300...something is seriously wrong when we get to figures like that where anyone can attempt to justify it.

And we are potentially talking about numbers in their thousands. At what point does even the most ardent Israel supporter say 'enough is enough.'

It's not just the number but the lack of remorse for the crime that stands out here. It seems to be a relentless justification of murderous terrorism and civilian murders that we see coming from Israel. The bible might call that having their heart set in them fully to do evil

 

[JosephZ]

As I said before Palestine is a mess because of the Palestinians.

Palestine has received a lot of resources. If they squander it instead of using it to build a better life, that's on them.

In an earlier post in this thread, I asked you what you would do if you found yourself in a similar situation as someone in Gaza, and you said, "I don't know there is a lot I could do." How is it that you can continue to blame Gazans for their current situation when you yourself said you wouldn't be able to do much about it if you found yourself in the same situation?

There are Palestinians all over the world.

This is true, but what does this have to do with the Palestinians that have been trapped in Gaza since 2007?

How they feel is irrelevant. It's not an open air prison....

Even those Christians use words like most of the time. That's not a prison. It probably feels like a prison because of the conditions they find themselves in. But it's not a prison.

I'm pretty sure every Christian in Gaza right now would disagree with you.

Also you can see the problems right now across the globe with Palestinians and their marches and protests.

The marches and protests you are seeing around the world are mostly made up of non-Palestinians, with many having no Palestinians participating; some have even been organized by Jewish organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace and If Not Now.

Now there's not a lot of places in that area that want them to come to their country, like Egypt. It's because the Palestinians are so radicalized. They live a life of blood, death and hate.

The primary reason Egypt and other Arab countries are refusing to take in Gazan refugees is because they know if they do, Israel will not allow them to return to the Palestinian territiories in the future.

Look if you use water pipes for bombs and rockets you don't get to complain that you don't have enough water resources.

Everyday Palestinians aren't the ones making bombs and rockets out of water pipes; Hamas, a terrorist group, has done this. The Palestinians are suffering because of the actions of Hamas and the disproportionate use of force that Israel uses to fight against them.

 

[Bradskii]

It's not just the number but the lack of remorse for the crime that stands out here. It seems to be a relentless justification of murderous terrorism and civilian murders that we see coming from Israel. The bible might call that having their heart set in them fully to do evil

Unfortunately, the response you are likely to get from that is 'Well, what about...the murderous terrorism and civilian murders that we see coming from Hamas.'

But any reasonable person would see that the one doesn't equate to the other. And that one is not a justification for the other. It's not morally permissible to say that 'we can do this because look what they did.' That drags you down to their position. Reach that point and you have lost. And Israel, as much as I support their position, is in very serious danger of losing the moral high ground. And thence losing support. And thus risking what they are trying to preserve.

 

[truthpls]

Unfortunately, the response you are likely to get from that is 'Well, what about...the murderous terrorism and civilian murders that we see coming from Hamas.'

That is a separate matter.

But any reasonable person would see that the one doesn't equate to the other. And that one is not a justification for the other. It's not morally permissible to say that 'we can do this because look what they did.' That drags you down to their position. Reach that point and you have lost. And Israel, as much as I support their position, is in very serious danger of losing the moral high ground. And thence losing support. And thus risking what they are trying to preserve.

I think it has been shown that they had no moral ground at all. Just cold hearts. Unsaved hearts. No love of God in them. God is justified in sending them into Great Tribulation. The heart of God is saving the babies and children that were not yet at the age of decision by bringing them to heaven when they are murdered by Israel. The world can now see that God is holy and righteous and just in allowing the Jewish people to go through the Great Tribulation...the wrath of God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

And common sense must ask...what cost are you prepared to pay?

Israel faces an existential threat to its very existence. They have counted the cost. They have to calculate the cost of doing nothing or not enough also. They've paid a high price already for relative inaction.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hamas only received 44.45% of the vote in 2006, but it gave them a majority of 74 seats in the 132 seat Palestinian Legislative Council at that time. Less than 15% of Gazans alive today voted for Hamas. In 2007, Hamas violently took control of Gaza.

Hamas gunmen seized military control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, executing Fatah rivals and provoking the collapse of their power-sharing Palestinian Authority government.

As Fatah’s last security command centers fell after four days of fighting, Hamas military men in black masks moved unchallenged across Gaza City, hunting down foes, blowing up homes and dragging the body of a top Fatah militant through the streets.

Firing mortars, grenade launchers and automatic weapons, Hamas fighters captured the Gaza City headquarters of the Preventive Security, Intelligence and National Security agencies Thursday afternoon, and executed some of their captives. The Presidential Guard compound fell late in the evening. All were controlled by Fatah.

Earlier in the day, Hamas overran the main Fatah compound in the southern city of Rafah, giving it full control of the border with Egypt, a source of the smuggled weapons that have expanded the movement’s arsenal in recent months.

Hamas fighters overran the headquarters amid mortar rounds and gunfire. They raised green Hamas flags over the shattered two-story compound, kneeled to the ground in prayer and marched handcuffed Fatah gunmen into the streets, some shirtless or in their underwear.

Hamas wins the battle for Gaza control

With his Fatah forces driven from the strip, Abbas dissolves the Cabinet but the Islamist premier vows to stay.

www.latimes.com

Gazans mostly support Hamas' attack on Israel. They may not like Hamas any more, but they hate Israel more. Gaza has not had elections but neither has the West Bank. There is no such thing as a Palestinian. If the Arabs agree to a separate state (which was the original UN plan), it will be only to build up to a place where they could attack Israel once more. The Arabs rejected the two state solution in 1948. Nothing has changed since that time.

 

[wing2000]

Common sense says that Israel has the right to defend itself.

I agree. If you read my post, I was taking issue with the methods, in particular the use of heavy bombs, to achieve their objective.

Hamas started this in 2006. Israel's mistake was not to destroy Hamas then. The world's mistake was to fund Gaza without bothering to find out where the money was going. None of this was necessary. The people of Gaza voted a terrorist group into power. What did they expect? So-called Palestinians have been calling for the eradication of Israel since 1948. Not the best neighbours to have, I would have thought. Common sense says destroy your enemy. I don't know of any other country that is pillioried for defending itself.

Are you suggesting the Palestinians have what's coming to them because they elected Hamas 17 years ago?

 

[expos4ever]

That sounds like somebody with no actual real familiarity with Muslims.

The Muslims I have know have been more humane people than many Christians I have known.

To be fair, your anecdotal experience is not really a counterargument to a claim about a broad historical pattern. I am not necessarily agreeing with the other poster, by the way, although I would wager that he is correct in case we think have fun

 

[expos4ever]

Israel has done more to try and prevent citizen deaths than any other country in other wars.

How do you know this? Do you have any hard numbers to provide us with. More generally, how do you know that another approach to eliminating Hamas is not available to them? Perhaps a slower paced series of highly surgical special operations attacks?

Let's imagine that Hamas terrorists were hiding in Israel. Would Israel be flattening entire neighborhoods to root out Hamas?

 

[essentialsaltes]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/18/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-palestine/

The IDF said it had suspended a soldier who was filmed throwing a stun grenade into a mosque in the village of Budrus, northwest of Ramallah, in the West Bank. The incident occurred Friday when worshipers and an imam were beginning to perform the sunrise prayers.

Medical teams remain trapped at al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society said Saturday — a day after it first reported that its teams there were in danger.
The organization reiterated a demand for immediate action to protect its teams at the hospital on Saturday, writing on X, formerly known as Twitter, that they were trapped amid “heavy bombardment and gunfire by Israeli soldiers.” On Friday, the PRCS reported the presence of Israeli tanks “hospital’s vicinity, amidst heavy gunfire by Israeli soldiers.”
The Israeli military said it was “checking” on the reports.

What we know about the situation in al-Shifa Hospital​

The situation at al-Shifa Hospital remains unclear, hours after medical staff said that they were ordered to evacuate on Saturday morning — a charge the Israeli military has denied.

• The Israel Defense Forces denied issuing any evacuation orders. In a statement Saturday, it said it “acceded to the request of the director of the Shifa Hospital to enable additional Gazans who were in the hospital, and would like to evacuate, to do so via the secure route.” This was denied by Mohammed Zaqout, the director of hospitals in Gaza, who told Al Jazeera: “Despite the difficult situation, the medical staff was working and operating … we were forced to leave at gunpoint.”

--

Reuters video apparently showing medics at a different hospital in Jenin being ordered out with their hands up.

 

[JosephZ]

Gazans mostly support Hamas' attack on Israel. They may not like Hamas any more, but they hate Israel more.

And that hatred towards Israel will continue to grow the longer the war continues. Prior to Israel's response to the terrorist attack on October 7th, support for Hamas had been declining, with one poll showing 69% of Palestinians agreeing that Hamas doesn't deserve to represent the Palestinian people. Since then, support for Hamas has increased substantially. This isn't unexpected; in fact, very early on in this conflict, in a post I made on October 11th, I said, "When people see their homes leveled, family members killed, or entire communities destroyed by military action, it often leads them to support terrorist groups." That's exactly what we're seeing. It doesn't matter who started the conflict; the anger is going to be primarily directed at the party that killed a family member, destroyed their home, or destroyed their community. Hamas is more than just a terrorist group; it's an ideology, and that ideology is growing stronger with each passing day and every Palestinian that dies. This is why Israel will not be able to defeat Hamas militarily.

 

[Vanellus]

*Ahem

View attachment 339412
https://special.now14.co.il/israel-wins/

It's probably more according to Israel's own site. And quite ironic that this Zionist regime paints all those eliminated as "terrorists". +12,320 and counting. Seems a tinge bit propagandist?

Cruel and heartless

 

[Vanellus]

Common sense says that Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas started this in 2006. Israel's mistake was not to destroy Hamas then. The world's mistake was to fund Gaza without bothering to find out where the money was going. None of this was necessary. The people of Gaza voted a terrorist group into power. What did they expect? So-called Palestinians have been calling for the eradication of Israel since 1948. Not the best neighbours to have, I would have thought. Common sense says destroy your enemy. I don't know of any other country that is pillioried for defending itself.

The problem is Israeli political leaders have stated that their objective is ethnic cleansing (or worse) not self defence

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel​

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

“The emphasis is on damage, not accuracy,” declared the Israel Defence Forces (IDF). “Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents,” said one IDF official, adding, “There will be no buildings.”

Israel is clear about its intentions in Gaza – world leaders cannot plead ignorance of what is coming | Owen Jones

Ethnic cleansing in Gaza: Israel’s agriculture minister declares, “We’re Rolling Out Nakba 2023”​

Ethnic cleansing in Gaza: Israel’s agriculture minister declares, “We’re Rolling Out Nakba 2023”

 

[Vanellus]

Israel faces an existential threat to its very existence. They have counted the cost. They have to calculate the cost of doing nothing or not enough also. They've paid a high price already for relative inaction.

Not according to Ehud Barak

 

[Bradskii]

Israel faces an existential threat to its very existence. They have counted the cost. They have to calculate the cost of doing nothing or not enough also. They've paid a high price already for relative inaction.

Do you think the cost is acceptable?