Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Valletta]

Well, that's so much better. Certainly lowers the death toll as well. Israel didn't kill that kid. He just died when the building collapsed on him.

It was a response to the "bombs didn't kill the Japanese" story but the fire did.

 

[Bradskii]

It was a response to the "bombs didn't kill the Japanese" story but the fire did.

I know. It doesn't make It any less nonsensical.

 

[Vanellus]

Well, that's so much better. Certainly lowers the death toll as well. Israel didn't kill that kid. He just died when the building collapsed on him.

Correct it had nothing to do with the IDF bombing of residential buildings.

 

[Desk trauma]

100,000 buildings? It is remarkable that Israel has kept the death toll so low. Realize that in one night of fire bombing on Tokyo by the U.S., on March 10, 1945, perhaps 100,000 Japanese were killed and a million injured.

If you're using operation meetinghouse as an example to say something isn't so bad, just stop.

 

[Pommer]

And Hamas is responsible for the deaths of those in Gaza. That is why they need to be eliminated as soon as possible.

How does “our side should commit a genocide before their side does!” make our side the “good guys”?

 

[Valletta]

How does “our side should commit a genocide before their side does!” make our side the “good guys”?

Fighting back against those who have committed genocide and are holding hostages is not genocide.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Fighting back against those who have committed genocide

Who committed genocide?

 

[Pommer]

Fighting back against those who have committed genocide and are holding hostages is not genocide.

Killing all members of a specific group of people, though, is a “genocide“. Hamas killed like 1200 Israeli men women and children and yes, took hostages, killing everyone who may have supported those heinous acts is too much though, really.

 

[Valletta]

Killing all members of a specific group of people, though, is a “genocide“. Hamas killed like 1200 Israeli men women and children and yes, took hostages, killing everyone who may have supported those heinous acts is too much though, really.

Yes, we agree, Hamas committed a genocide.

 

[Pommer]

Yes, we agree, Hamas committed a genocide.

No, Hamas killed about 1200 people, mostly at random, that’s not a genocide.

 

[Valletta]

No, Hamas killed about 1200 people, mostly at random, that’s not a genocide.

They weren't after any particular group?

 

[Pommer]

They weren't after any particular group?

They didn’t have the wherewithal to conduct a genocide.
Being a vassal-state tends to limit a country’s options in waging war.

Is Hamas responsible and horrible for beginning this action?
Yes, of course, but Israel cannot “wipe them out” because that‘d make Israel worse.

 

[rjs330]

Despite all the blood-curdling rhetoric of Hezbollah and Iran, neither will attack Israel or U.S. assets in force, given no American president could afford not to retaliate disproportionately. And “disproportionately” would mean rendering Iran’s military and Hezbollah to something akin to the current status of Hamas.
So for now, Hamas and its American-residing apologists are full of themselves and feel they are leveraging and manipulating the West. But such haughtiness may be a delusion. Hamas in the Middle East and its enablers in Europe and America have done more to harm the Palestinian cause and the idea of Middle Eastern immigration to the West than at any time since 9/11.
It is hard to anger Westerners, but continue the death chants, the violent demonstrations, the creepy anti-Semitism, and the proud support for the Hamas bloodwork of October 7, and they will be surprised at the growing anger of otherwise postmodern Europeans and distracted Americans.
Just as Israel realizes that there is no living with Hamas killers, so the West is learning that it can no longer sustain universities that despise the culture that nourishes it or Middle Eastern immigrants, visiting students, and residents that use the gift of freedom and tolerance to promote their abhorrent anti-Semitism, violence, intolerance—and, yes, hatred of their generous hosts.

What Were the Hamas Monsters Thinking?

Hamas has done more to harm the Palestinian cause and the idea of Middle Eastern immigration to the West than at any time since 9/11.

victorhanson.com

Indeed, I agree that to act "disproportionately" is, tragically, the best route to take against the jihadists.

I hate to throw water on your parade but I don't think America as a unit are at all fed up with it. I think we have a long way to go. I think a chunk of America is, but the left in this country support all the actions and love and support the universities leftist agendas and education.

 

[rjs330]

No, I think they underestimated Hamas' capabilities. They got complacent.

Yeah I think they drastically underestimated Hamas ability to carry out such an attack. They were so used to missiles and stuff being launched it clouded their judgement to Hamas' ability to carry out a targeted attack.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well, that's so much better. Certainly lowers the death toll as well. Israel didn't kill that kid. He just died when the building collapsed on him.

Actually he died because hamas attacked, murdered and kidnapped Israeli citizens and the kid is now living in a war zone. Try pinning the blame where it belongs: hamas.

 

[civilwarbuff]

killing everyone who may have supported those heinous acts is too much though, really.

Why?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes, of course, but Israel cannot “wipe them out”

They have an alternative: they can surrender (fat chance of that ever happening). Had the nazis not surrendered and fought to the end (as hamas has every stated intention of doing) in WWII they would would have been wiped out......and good riddance to them. What makes hamas deserve less of an outcome?

 

[wing2000]

Yeah I think they drastically underestimated Hamas ability to carry out such an attack. They were so used to missiles and stuff being launched it clouded their judgement to Hamas' ability to carry out a targeted attack.

PBS Newshour interview with the NYT reporter who broke the story:

William Brangham:
And again, as you report, if you have an Israeli intelligence agent who sees a version of this plan being rehearsed and says, guys, this seems to be the document — a version of the document that we have been studying, what is your sense as to why her warnings were not heeded?

Adam Goldman (NYT Reporter)
She herself didn't challenge the assessment that Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, was in fact ready to go to war. In fact, the conventional wisdom was he didn't — was not interested in going to war, and she didn't challenge that in her analysis in these e-mails.

She also didn't give the — she didn't place a time on the attack. And I think one of the issues here is making a convincing argument to military and political leaders that an attack was in fact imminent. It's not clear to me how far her warnings reached at the time, but there were others who — there were others — there were other veteran analysts who agreed with their assessment.

And then there were others who felt this was imaginary. And they literally used that word, that this — Hamas wanted to do this, but, of course, they weren't ready to. There are many, many parallels to the attacks on the 9/11. It was a lack of imagination, that they failed to envision or at least understand the true capabilities of Hamas and what they intended to do.

They also, it seems, weren't willing to challenge their own conventional wisdom. And, in a sense, confirmation bias had seeped into the intelligence thinking. And people might have been in an echo chamber.

Israeli officials repeatedly dismissed warning signs before Hamas attack, report claims

In our news wrap Friday, a federal appeals court panel ruled that Jan. 6 lawsuits against former President Trump will move forward, an inmate is charged with attempted murder after stabbing Derek Chauvin 22 times in a federal prison and Ukraine's spy agency has reportedly reached deep into...

www.pbs.org

 

[essentialsaltes]

Dozens feared dead after apparent strike destroys Gaza refugee camp building​

The building was housing more than 100 displaced people from northern Gaza, according to Anas Ah-Sharif, a freelance journalist there.

The IDF did not immediately respond to CNN questions about the blast in the Jabalya refugee camp, which is Gaza's largest.

The IDF had urged residents of several northern Gaza neighborhoods to evacuate and move south of Wadi Gaza on Saturday. The warnings were issued in Arabic on social media, but it is not clear that residents were able to receive the messages because electricity, phone signals and internet access are often disrupted in Gaza.

 

[expos4ever]

We cannot have a reasonable discussion when people are making arguments that are beyond ridiculous - how can we take anyone seriously who effectively argues that no matter how excessive Israel's response might be, all the deaths of Gazans are the moral responsibility of Hamas.

That, franky, is inane.

Imagine a scenario where Canada is a mighty military power and the US is much, much weaker. Now imagine that some American terrorists, whose base of operations is in Manhattan, sneak into Canada and brutally murder thousands. Imagine that Canada then firebombs Manhattan, arguing, legitimately, that the terrorists are hiding out under various Manhattan skyscrapers. And thousands and thousands of innocent Americans die.

Would you then argue "it's the fault of the terrorists"?

We all know the answer.