Israel-Hamas Thread II

[civilwarbuff]

How can anyone believe such an absurd claim? Like others, you appear to be defending the view that because Gazan terrorists started the present conflict, Israel bears no responsibility for the nature of their response.

That is, of course, a position that cannot be taken seriously.

Hamas is responsible for all the casualties. Without their attack Israel would not be there and none of this would have happened. Just as had Nazi Germany not attacked Poland in 1939 the millions that died would have lived. Therefore Nazi Germany is also responsible for all the casualties of WWII in Europe. Can you provide any evidence that these statement are not true?......not your opinion mind you but evidence.

 

[Valletta]

Pa. gov rips protesters who mobbed Jewish-owned falafel shop to harass owner: ‘Blatant act of antisemitism’

“A restaurant was targeted and mobbed because its owner is Jewish and Israeli. This hate and bigotry is reminiscent of a dark time in history.”

nypost.com

The hatred needs to be stopped. There is one group that is clearly evil and that is Hamas. In our country the federal government needs to crack down on anti-Israel anti-Semitic violence. Those who are not citizens and engage in such violence need to be deported. Such crimes are hate crimes. How many of those involved have been arrested and charged with hate crimes? It;s easy to say that what is going on is wrong, what we need is for the government to put these people in jail. The Democrats need to confront the radical minority in their party and boot them out. The same reaction should occur as if protesters were violent because someone was black and owned a restaurant.

 

[o_mlly]

How ignorant can you be? What Muslim nation will send peacekeepers to Israel? Most of them don't recognise Israel as a state at all. Sure, flood Gaza with Muslim fighters. They will attack Israel alongside Hamas and the other Muslim murderers. Why not invite Iran along for the ride? That should work out fine - if you want to start WW3.

Get a grip on yourself, Pete!

If any "peace-making" force aligns with Israel and puts themselves in harm's way in Gaza then they should be Muslims; Muslims who name Hamas and the Palestinians who enable them as criminals. Apparently, you judge that all Muslims conspire secretly with Hamas to murder innocent people. I'd like to think not. Let Muslims police their own criminals. Would Hamas soldiers shoot their fellow Muslims? Call them out on it.

 

[Bradskii]

I think a peace keeping force presumes that peace precedes their presence. If multi-national means a coalition of Muslim countries sending their sons and daughters into the conflict in Gaza to attain that peace, then such an idea has possibilities.

History tells us that until an unjust aggressor is vanquished that peace is impossible. Let the Muslims police their own criminals.

I think it could be a 'coalition of the willing'. And if there were Arab states involved then it could be a big step to peace in the area. I can't see Hamas taking random shots at Egyptian or British members of a UN force.

 

[essentialsaltes]

No commentary needed here.

Hamas terrorists open fire at bus stop near Jerusalem, leaving 3 dead, 11 injured

Israeli police said a shooting carried out by Hamas terrorists at the Givat Shaul junction on the outskirts of Jerusalem left at least three Israelis dead and several others injured.

www.foxnews.com

Maybe not needed, but a little adjacent commentary helps provide additional information about the general situation.

An Israeli raced to confront Palestinian attackers; he was then killed by an Israeli soldier​

The shooting of Castleman, who in security camera footage is seen kneeling, raising his hands and flinging open his shirt to indicate he isn’t a threat, underscores what critics say is an epidemic of excessive force by Israeli soldiers, police and armed citizens against suspected Palestinian attackers.

 

[Bradskii]

I was being sarcastic. What nation would contribute to a peace keeping force? And there has to be peace before you can keep it. I asked what practical solution there was. Peacekeeping may work (the UN's track record is not great) but it's not going to happen. Not one nation has suggested it.

You are stuck in this mindset of Palestinians = Hamas. Almost all Arab states are pro Palestinian. Most Arab states would welcome a two nation solution and I would suggest be willing to listen to offer some of their armed forces to a multi nation UN mission into Gaza to keep the peace. And that's exactly what we want, isn't it?

I doubt that anyone who matters frequents this forum. If they do, they have ignored my advice.

I'm sure all leaders in the area plus members of the UN are hanging on your every word.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Maybe not needed, but a little adjacent commentary helps provide additional information about the general situation.

An Israeli raced to confront Palestinian attackers; he was then killed by an Israeli soldier​

The shooting of Castleman, who in security camera footage is seen kneeling, raising his hands and flinging open his shirt to indicate he isn’t a threat, underscores what critics say is an epidemic of excessive force by Israeli soldiers, police and armed citizens against suspected Palestinian attackers.

I started a thread on this; it certainly sounds like (in the US at least) straight murder. Their military probably has another charge for it given it is in a time of declared war. That soldier made a bad decision and now he needs to pay the price.

 

[Bradskii]

Why? It's an important piece to this. All stopping does is remove focus from where it should be. You have to have perspective on who started this. If you don't compare you can't figure out who the real bad guy is and what needs to be done about it.

Gee, you think we need reminding about who 'the bad guy' is? Don't talk nonsense. But knowing it cannot and should not be a reason to excuse any and all behaviour by 'the good guy'. But that's exactly what you are doing.

 

[Hank77]

I think it could be a 'coalition of the willing'. And if there were Arab states involved then it could be a big step to peace in the area. I can't see Hamas taking random shots at Egyptian or British members of a UN force.

Israel must destroy Hamas. It also must normalize relations with Saudi Arabia. That’s why the 10/7 attacks happened in the first place. ​

Israel Is Caught in a Strategic Trap

Israel must destroy Hamas. It also must normalize relations with Saudi Arabia. That’s why the 10/7 attacks happened in the first place.

plus.thebulwark.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

UN secretary-general: “There is nowhere safe to go” in Gaza for people ordered to evacuate​

"For people ordered to evacuate, there is nowhere safe to go and very little to survive on," the secretary-general said.

Guterres also said he was gravely concerned about the escalation of violence in the occupied West Bank, including a high number of fatalities and arrests, intensified Israeli security operations and settler violence, and attacks on Israelis by Palestinians, the statement said.

United Nations relief agency chief says number of civilians killed in Gaza "is rapidly increasing"​

UNRWA is currently housing more than 1.2 million people in shelters, including in southern Gaza, according to the agency.

"The evacuation order pushes people to concentrate into what is less than one-third of the Gaza Strip. They need everything: food, water, shelter, and mostly safety. Roads to the south are clogged," Lazzarini said, noting that access to water is limited in Gaza.

Israeli military says it will investigate transfer of soldiers away from Gaza border ahead of October 7 attack​

“Troops were indeed moved,” Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said. “And I’m saying that this will be discussed in an operational review, and answers will be fully given to the public.”

The report came after weeks of speculation in the Israeli media, and denials by the IDF.

The prime minister’s office has consistently said that failures will need to be investigated but that now is not the appropriate time.

WHO says Israeli military ordered withdrawal of medical supplies from 2 southern Gaza warehouses​

Palestine Red Crescent says it lost contact with Gaza teams due to communications blackout​

Gaza is in midst of "near total blackout," internet monitor says​

Israeli Ministry of Education bars previously detained Palestinian children from returning to school this term​

 

[Valletta]

UN secretary-general: “There is nowhere safe to go” in Gaza for people ordered to evacuate​

"For people ordered to evacuate, there is nowhere safe to go and very little to survive on," the secretary-general said.

Guterres also said he was gravely concerned about the escalation of violence in the occupied West Bank, including a high number of fatalities and arrests, intensified Israeli security operations and settler violence, and attacks on Israelis by Palestinians, the statement said.

United Nations relief agency chief says number of civilians killed in Gaza "is rapidly increasing"​

UNRWA is currently housing more than 1.2 million people in shelters, including in southern Gaza, according to the agency.

"The evacuation order pushes people to concentrate into what is less than one-third of the Gaza Strip. They need everything: food, water, shelter, and mostly safety. Roads to the south are clogged," Lazzarini said, noting that access to water is limited in Gaza.

Israeli military says it will investigate transfer of soldiers away from Gaza border ahead of October 7 attack​

“Troops were indeed moved,” Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said. “And I’m saying that this will be discussed in an operational review, and answers will be fully given to the public.”

The report came after weeks of speculation in the Israeli media, and denials by the IDF.

The prime minister’s office has consistently said that failures will need to be investigated but that now is not the appropriate time.

WHO says Israeli military ordered withdrawal of medical supplies from 2 southern Gaza warehouses​

Palestine Red Crescent says it lost contact with Gaza teams due to communications blackout​

Gaza is in midst of "near total blackout," internet monitor says​

Israeli Ministry of Education bars previously detained Palestinian children from returning to school this term​

Of course the number of civilians killed in the Gaza border area increases, it is impossible to decrease. Just

 

[Valletta]

Democrats disagree as to re-locating Palestinians:

VP Harris: 'Under no circumstances' will the US permit forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza

In the meeting, Harris and Sisi discussed "ideas for post-conflict planning in Gaza including efforts on reconstruction, security, and governance."

justthenews.com

Oakland Votes To Allow Hamas To Move Into Newly Vacant Coliseum

OAKLAND, CA — Soon after the Oakland City Council voted to pass a resolution calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict, city officials also voted to allow Hamas to move into the now-vacant Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum.

babylonbee.com

 

[Valletta]

"They Feared for Their Lives" - Initial Reports: 'Innocent' Palestinians Threatened and Hurled Stones at Bus Carrying Israeli Hostages Out of Gaza | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

Details are beginning to emerge about what the Israeli hostages were forced to endure during the captivity in Gaza by Hamas terrorists.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

 

[Bradskii]

Democrats disagree as to re-locating Palestinians:

Oakland Votes To Allow Hamas To Move Into Newly Vacant Coliseum

OAKLAND, CA — Soon after the Oakland City Council voted to pass a resolution calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict, city officials also voted to allow Hamas to move into the now-vacant Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum.

babylonbee.com

Your opinion is worthless when you can't tell painfully obvious satire from genuine reportage. Why should we take your opinions seriously if you don't even read what you link to? At least I very seriously hope you didn't read it.

 

[JosephZ]

I have rarely come across such stupidity as yours and the others who are clueless as to the nature of the Gaza conflict. None of you bleeding hearts have come up with an alternative to what Israel is doing. You conveniently ignore the facts of the situation, that's if you've even bothered to find out anything.

I provided another option in this post the last time you said no one has come up with an alternative to what Israel is doing. It was a summary of an earlier post I made way back on October 15th. It's a strategy that has been successful in defeating terrorist groups in the past.

 

[Robban]

I provided another option in this post the last time you said no one has come up with an alternative to what Israel is doing. It was a summary of an earlier post I made way back on October 15th. It's a strategy that has been successful in defeating terrorist groups in the past.

Though well meant no doubt,
but Benjamin Netanyahu has made his mind up along with military.
Time will tell if he has the green light.

 

[expos4ever]

Hamas is responsible for all the casualties.

Nonsense.

You and I both know that if terrorists based in the Manhattan had attacked Canada and then Canada firebombed Manhattan into oblivion, you would be crying in outrage at the over-reaction. And the fact that this is an unrealistic example is not the point.

It is patently silly to believe that the mere fact that Hamas instigated this latest round of fighting gives Israel free moral licence to take whatever measures they see fit in response.

You are defending an absurd position.

Just as had Nazi Germany not attacked Poland in 1939 the millions that died would have lived. Therefore Nazi Germany is also responsible for all the casualties of WWII in Europe.

Again, complete nonsense. Imagine that the Allies had nuked Germany into oblivion the day after the invasion of Poland, killing tens of millions of German citizens. That would be a clear over-reaction and a gross violation of any reasonable principle of proportionality.

Can you provide any evidence that these statement are not true?......not your opinion mind you but evidence.

Your asking me for "evidence" that Hamas is not responsible for all the casualties is like asking for "evidence" that it is not ok to walk to up a complete stranger and shoot them dead for no reason. It is a category error on your part - a basic moral principle, such as the principle that a grossly exaggerated violent response to a provocation is unethical, is not something that you support with evidence. It is instead a principle that any reasonable human being would embrace.

Do you expect "evidence" that it is unethical to lie? That is unethical to cheat on your spouse? These are not questions that you can demand evidence for - they are basic ethical principles that human beings extract from life experience.

 

[Pommer]

Democrats disagree as to re-locating Palestinians:

VP Harris: 'Under no circumstances' will the US permit forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza

In the meeting, Harris and Sisi discussed "ideas for post-conflict planning in Gaza including efforts on reconstruction, security, and governance."

justthenews.com

Oakland Votes To Allow Hamas To Move Into Newly Vacant Coliseum

OAKLAND, CA — Soon after the Oakland City Council voted to pass a resolution calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict, city officials also voted to allow Hamas to move into the now-vacant Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum.

babylonbee.com

A smilie would go great here.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I provided another option in this post the last time you said no one has come up with an alternative to what Israel is doing. It was a summary of an earlier post I made way back on October 15th. It's a strategy that has been successful in defeating terrorist groups in the past.

I replied to your post. What you suggested is impracticable. I've been asking for solutions that are feasible and do not involve the end of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish population. So far, nothing. I've thought about this a lot.

1. Get all the civilians out of Gaza then continue to hunt down Hamas. Why not? No one wants Gazan refugees. Hamas terrorists can meld into the civilian population and escape with them anyway
2. An international force to replace the IDF. Why not? No one wants to put their own military at risk in one of the riskiest possible combat situations
3. UN peacekeepers. Why not. The UN's track record is not great. And you have to have peace before you can keep it.
4. Nuke Gaza. Why not? The world would likely get a bit upset with Israel. Oh, they already are upset.

5. Leave Israel to continue doing what they are doing. It may or may not work. At least Hamas is being ground down to some extent.

I think that the rest of the world needs to lighten up or get their hands dirty too. If you back people into a corner, they get desperate. If comes to an existential threat to Israel's existence, don't be surprised if they use the nuclear option. They don't have to use it on Gaza. Drop one on Tehran and other Iranian targets would be a start. I'm not advocating this at all. WW3 will come soon enough as it is. However, pushing Israel to the brink may trigger it earlier than anyone wants.

 

[Jimmy It]

An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Israel releases images of slain children to rally support

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...rrifying-images-of-infants-murdered-by-hamas/

Israeli civilians were tortured, raped, and abused by Hamas fighters says forensic teams, Reuters reports

Hamas terror attack: Girls 'raped next to their dead friends' at rave massacre

Gal Gadot slams international silence on Hamas' sexual atrocities