Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Valletta]

...that's an easy declaration for those of us living comfortably in stable , democratic countries where we regularly have a say in who governs us. The fact is, none of us can even begin appreciate what it's like to live under a terrorist regime that governs by fear, control and manipulation. What do you expect the "citizens of Gaza" to do? Rise up and throw rocks at Hamas military units?

Hamas has a lot of support. For those who are captives of Hamas, whether Jew or Palestinian, Israel is working to free them. What we can do is hit back hard at the United Nations for not supporting the effort. .

 

[Chesterton]

What we can do is hit back hard at the United Nations for not supporting the effort. .

I heard a joke the other day. Guy sez to me "The U.N. should start their own soccer team." I sez "But they represent the whole world. Who would their opponent be?" Guy sez "Israel of course".

 

[Chesterton]

...that's an easy declaration for those of us living comfortably in stable , democratic countries where we regularly have a say in who governs us. The fact is, none of us can even begin appreciate what it's like to live under a terrorist regime that governs by fear, control and manipulation. What do you expect the "citizens of Gaza" to do? Rise up and throw rocks at Hamas military units?

That's a good argument for the U.S. Second Amendment.

 

[Chesterton]

If I were Israel I'd be working my tail off to figure out how the take out their leadership in Qatar.

I've heard thinly veiled hints from Israeli officials that they're all going down. The Israeli Intelligence Community is arguably the best in the world. If they have reason to be interested in you, "they know what you had for breakfast". The leadership driving Bugattis around Qatar and Turkey while their people suffer - their days are numbered. Just a matter of the right time and place.

 

[That Guy 11200]

I've heard thinly veiled hints from Israeli officials that they're all going down. The Israeli Intelligence Community is arguably the best in the world. If they have reason to be interested in you, "they know what you had for breakfast". The leadership driving Bugattis around Qatar and Turkey while their people suffer - their days are numbered. Just a matter of the right time and place.

"The Israeli Intelligence Community is arguably the best in the world..." ...even though they failed to spot large, coordinated attack being planned on their own doorstep.

I suspect it's like how Russia has the 2nd army in the world.

 

[Chesterton]

"The Israeli Intelligence Community is arguably the best in the world..." ...even though they failed to spot large, coordinated attack being planned on their own doorstep.

I suspect it's like how Russia has the 2nd army in the world.

So when Israel deals with their enemies by being "heavy handed" they're accused of being heavy handed. And when they're not heavy handed, Oct. 7 happens.

 

[o_mlly]

...that's an easy declaration for those of us living comfortably in stable , democratic countries where we regularly have a say in who governs us. The fact is, none of us can even begin appreciate what it's like to live under a terrorist regime that governs by fear, control and manipulation. What do you expect the "citizens of Gaza" to do? Rise up and throw rocks at Hamas military units?

The important difference is that Hamas is not an invading military force occupying Gaza but the legitimately elected ruling political party. You can be flippant about the Palestinians' ability to resist Hamas but that does not relieve the Gazans from their duty to cooperate with Israel in rooting out and prosecuting the Hamas criminals in their midst. And there is much that Gazans can do to that end. Will some Gazans likely die in the effort? Yes. Are those Gazans "more" innocent than Israelis who died or will die in their just war? No.

 

[JosephZ]

The important difference is that Hamas is not an invading military force occupying Gaza but the legitimately elected ruling political party.

Hamas only received 44.45% of the vote in 2006, but it gave them a majority of 74 seats in the 132 seat Palestinian Legislative Council at that time. Hamas expelled the Palestinian Authority and Fatah in a violent takeover in 2007 and took control of Gaza.

Hamas gunmen seized military control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, executing Fatah rivals and provoking the collapse of their power-sharing Palestinian Authority government.

As Fatah’s last security command centers fell after four days of fighting, Hamas military men in black masks moved unchallenged across Gaza City, hunting down foes, blowing up homes and dragging the body of a top Fatah militant through the streets.

Firing mortars, grenade launchers and automatic weapons, Hamas fighters captured the Gaza City headquarters of the Preventive Security, Intelligence and National Security agencies Thursday afternoon, and executed some of their captives. The Presidential Guard compound fell late in the evening. All were controlled by Fatah.

Earlier in the day, Hamas overran the main Fatah compound in the southern city of Rafah, giving it full control of the border with Egypt, a source of the smuggled weapons that have expanded the movement’s arsenal in recent months.

Hamas fighters overran the headquarters amid mortar rounds and gunfire. They raised green Hamas flags over the shattered two-story compound, kneeled to the ground in prayer and marched handcuffed Fatah gunmen into the streets, some shirtless or in their underwear.

Hamas wins the battle for Gaza control

With his Fatah forces driven from the strip, Abbas dissolves the Cabinet but the Islamist premier vows to stay.

www.latimes.com

 

[That Guy 11200]

So when Israel deals with their enemies by being "heavy handed" they're accused of being heavy handed. And when they're not heavy handed, Oct. 7 happens.

What does being heavy handed or not have to do with military intelligence?

 

[Chesterton]

What does being heavy handed or not have to do with military intelligence?

The reason you gather intelligence is so you can act on it.

 

[o_mlly]

Hamas only received 44.45% of the vote in 2006, but it gave them a majority of 74 seats in the 132 seat Palestinian Legislative Council at that time. Hamas expelled the Palestinian Authority and Fatah in a violent takeover in 2007 and took control of Gaza.

Hamas gunmen seized military control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, executing Fatah rivals and provoking the collapse of their power-sharing Palestinian Authority government.

As Fatah’s last security command centers fell after four days of fighting, Hamas military men in black masks moved unchallenged across Gaza City, hunting down foes, blowing up homes and dragging the body of a top Fatah militant through the streets.

Firing mortars, grenade launchers and automatic weapons, Hamas fighters captured the Gaza City headquarters of the Preventive Security, Intelligence and National Security agencies Thursday afternoon, and executed some of their captives. The Presidential Guard compound fell late in the evening. All were controlled by Fatah.

Earlier in the day, Hamas overran the main Fatah compound in the southern city of Rafah, giving it full control of the border with Egypt, a source of the smuggled weapons that have expanded the movement’s arsenal in recent months.

Hamas fighters overran the headquarters amid mortar rounds and gunfire. They raised green Hamas flags over the shattered two-story compound, kneeled to the ground in prayer and marched handcuffed Fatah gunmen into the streets, some shirtless or in their underwear.

Hamas wins the battle for Gaza control

With his Fatah forces driven from the strip, Abbas dissolves the Cabinet but the Islamist premier vows to stay.

www.latimes.com

What point(s) are you trying to make in pasting this article?

Was Hamas the legitimate government of Gaza in 2006? Yes.

Was there subsequently a civil war among the Muslim factions for control? Yes.

Did Hamas prevail? Yes.

Was Lincoln still the legitimate President of the United States following our Civil War? Yes.

Was Hamas the legitimate ruler in Gaza after their civil war? Yes.

 

[wing2000]

That's a good argument for the U.S. Second Amendment.

...and no relevance to the reality in Gaza.

 

[wing2000]

The important difference is that Hamas is not an invading military force occupying Gaza but the legitimately elected ruling political party.

Elected once. With thousands of Hamas fighters under arms (backed by Iran), how do you propose the citizens of Gaza resist?

You can be flippant about the Palestinians' ability to resist Hamas but that does not relieve the Gazans from their duty to cooperate with Israel in rooting out and prosecuting the Hamas criminals in their midst.

No doubt, some are cooperating. But I suspect the majority are simply trying to survive.

And there is much that Gazans can do to that end.

Such as?

Will some Gazans likely die in the effort? Yes. Are those Gazans "more" innocent than Israelis who died or will die in their just war? No.

Just war?
Were all of Israel's actions in northern Gaza just? JWT calls for, amoung other things, proportionality. Is dropping 2,000 lb bombs in densely populated areas propotional to the military objective achieved?

.

 

[civilwarbuff]

All the prophecies prophecising about Messiah's first coming, the cross and ressuraction have been fulfilled. There are prophecies about His second coming that are yet to be fulfilled. I do not know what's hard to understand about that.

Jesus is coming back for His people. The mercy of God today is that He does not judge any one of us according to our sin, but one day that will come to an end. When Jesus comes, He will bring the judgement with Him. Why? Because God is just and all the sin must be punished. And punishment for sin is God's wrath and eternall hell. But God in His mercy chose not to pour His wrath yet, instead He sent His Son, who was crucified, burried and rose on the third day, that whoever believes in Him, should not perrish. But who believes not onto Him, is condemned already. It is Christ alone who saves, as He is the only one without sin, and He is the only one who reconciles us to God, and He is the only one who atones for our sin, for He is the perfect sacrifice. Jesus Christ is the only Saviour, He is the only one that can save you. Repent and be saved.

Just write it off as a good example of 1 Cor 2:14 and save your pixels.

 

[o_mlly]

Elected once. With thousands of Hamas fighters under arms (backed by Iran), how do you propose the citizens of Gaza resist?



No doubt, some are cooperating. But I suspect the majority are simply trying to survive.


Such as?



Just war?
Were all of Israel's actions in northern Gaza just? JWT calls for, amoung other things, proportionality. Is dropping 2,000 lb bombs in densely populated areas propotional to the military objective achieved?

.

In order of your queries:

France backed the U.S. revolution. Does that make the U.S. illegitimate? No.
Use your imagination.
Your suspicions are not facts.
The truth about all wars is never known with any level of certainty until the end of hostilities and then after years of investigation.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I disagree. Especially if people quit pressuring them to stop. If they do give in there's a 100% chance Hamas won't be defeated.

The odds are good. Hamas is for the most part confined to Gaza and Palestine. It's not a world wide organization. If I were Israel I'd be working my tail off to figure out how the take out their leadership in Qatar.

Well, they promised the Qatari govt that Mossad would not assassinate hamas leadership in Qatar. That doesn't mean they can't do it someplace else or get someone not affiliated with Mossad to do it in Qatar.

 

[That Guy 11200]

The reason you gather intelligence is so you can act on it.

...by moving troops to the border to defend against an attack, in this case. That isn't being heavy handed. That's being proportional.

However, that didn't happen because of intelligence failures, which was the point of my original post.

 

[civilwarbuff]

"The Israeli Intelligence Community is arguably the best in the world..." ...even though they failed to spot large, coordinated attack being planned on their own doorstep.

I suspect it's like how Russia has the 2nd army in the world.

No different than US intel failing to spot 9/11 in time. Intel has to be lucky 100% of the time. Terrorists only have to be lucky once.

 

[Chesterton]

...by moving troops to the border to defend against an attack, in this case. That isn't being heavy handed. That's being proportional.

However, that didn't happen because of intelligence failures, which was the point of my original post.

I didn't take that to be the point of your original post. I said the IIC was excellent. You said "what about this failure?" I said they were very good, I didn't say they were perfect.

 

[Chesterton]

Well, they promised the Qatari govt that Mossad would not assassinate hamas leadership in Qatar. That doesn't mean they can't do it someplace else or get someone not affiliated with Mossad to do it in Qatar.

I hadn't heard that they promised that. Interesting. Although during wartime, I'm not sure a promise should be relied on. Plus, did they say specifically Mossad wouldn't do it? They're the most famous, but there are other branches of the "intelligence" community. We might even speculate that the very top notch group is one we've never heard of.