Israel-Hamas Thread II

[JosephZ]

Gaza was ruled by Hamas. Did they make it a prison? I wasn't aware of that.

No, Israel made it a prison.

Since 2007, Israel has imposed an air, land and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, saying the move is necessary to safeguard the country from Hamas’ attacks. Gaza is surrounded by concrete walls and barbed wire fences.

Palestinians are prohibited from entering or leaving the territory except in extremely rare cases such as “urgent, life-threatening medical conditions,” according to Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. Foreign citizens are not subjected to the same restrictions. Human rights groups have described it as “the world’s largest open-air prison.”

What is the Gaza Strip? What you need to know about the territory at the heart of the Israel-Hamas war

The Gaza Strip, which some have called "the world's largest open-air prison," is a narrow piece of land between Israel and Egypt.

www.cnbc.com

Where did you get the 4500 dead children from?

Ms. Russell condemned the “grave violations” against children committed by the parties to the conflict and said that she was in Gaza “to do whatever I can to advocate for the protection of children”.

“Inside the Strip, there is nowhere safe for Gaza’s one million children to turn,” she said, highlighting that more than 4,600 children have reportedly been killed and nearly 9,000 injured.

Many children are believed buried under the rubble of collapsed buildings, “the tragic result of the use of explosive weapons in populated areas”, she said.

Gaza: ‘Hospitals are not battlegrounds’, children’s suffering must stop, UN humanitarians say

Children have been killed, maimed, abducted and denied assistance in Gaza, and the parties to the conflict must “stop this horror”, UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF) chief Catherine Russell said during a visit to the enclave as humanitarian operations there ground to a halt on Wednesday for lack of fuel.

news.un.org

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war agai…

thehill.com

 

[Carl Emerson]

When there is a war - there is a war for knowledge and folks take sides.

No one really knows yet what is happening, and those who thought they knew, and were wrong, will be unlikely to apologise.

That means heated argument is more about who folks are, rather than what the facts are.

The internet has raised the opinion level to turbo, and CF is not immune.

As far as is possible be at peace with all...

 

[Vanellus]

All Patients in the Intensive Care Unit of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza died - Sarajevo Times

All Patients in the Intensive Care Unit of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza (have) died​

due to lack of power

 

[rjs330]

No, Israel made it a prison.

Since 2007, Israel has imposed an air, land and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, saying the move is necessary to safeguard the country from Hamas’ attacks. Gaza is surrounded by concrete walls and barbed wire fences.

Palestinians are prohibited from entering or leaving the territory except in extremely rare cases such as “urgent, life-threatening medical conditions,” according to Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. Foreign citizens are not subjected to the same restrictions. Human rights groups have described it as “the world’s largest open-air prison.”

What is the Gaza Strip? What you need to know about the territory at the heart of the Israel-Hamas war

The Gaza Strip, which some have called "the world's largest open-air prison," is a narrow piece of land between Israel and Egypt.

www.cnbc.com

Ms. Russell condemned the “grave violations” against children committed by the parties to the conflict and said that she was in Gaza “to do whatever I can to advocate for the protection of children”.

“Inside the Strip, there is nowhere safe for Gaza’s one million children to turn,” she said, highlighting that more than 4,600 children have reportedly been killed and nearly 9,000 injured.

Many children are believed buried under the rubble of collapsed buildings, “the tragic result of the use of explosive weapons in populated areas”, she said.

Gaza: ‘Hospitals are not battlegrounds’, children’s suffering must stop, UN humanitarians say

Children have been killed, maimed, abducted and denied assistance in Gaza, and the parties to the conflict must “stop this horror”, UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF) chief Catherine Russell said during a visit to the enclave as humanitarian operations there ground to a halt on Wednesday for lack of fuel.

news.un.org

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war agai…

thehill.com

Yeah doesn't sound like a prison to me. I've seen prisons. That's not it. Of course Gazans sounded by concrete walls. That's what you do when you are trying to keep murderers out of your country. If Gazans wouldn't attack Israel there would be no reason to try and keep them out. If there is a wall it's the Gazans fault.

The death toll is given by terrorists. You can't trust it. By the way how many terrorists have been killed by Israel?

 

[rjs330]

All Patients in the Intensive Care Unit of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza died - Sarajevo Times

All Patients in the Intensive Care Unit of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza (have) died​

due to lack of power

Again Hamas' fault. They had the fuel and wouldn't give it to their own people.

Israel tried to give them dual and it was refused.

Did I say this was all Hamas' fault. I think I did.

 

[truthpls]

Incorrect.

OK, keep us posted I guess.
I was thinking how God will raise all children in Gaza that had not reached the age of decision.

 

[truthpls]

People couldn't travel around Gaza freely? You know there hasn't been any of those dirty Jew terrorists in Gaza for a long time now.

Unable in some cases to visit relatives in the west bank etc.

 

[Desk trauma]

OK, keep us posted I guess.
I was thinking how God will raise all children in Gaza that had not reached the age of decision.
View attachment 339406

The deaths are a good outcome in that framework.

 

[Bradskii]

The death toll is given by terrorists. You can't trust it. By the way how many terrorists have been killed by Israel?

The death toll is given by the Ministry of Health. I have previouly posted links showing that a number of organisations think they are, within reason (fog of war etc) to be trusted. Here's another: How the dead are counted in Gaza

'Healthcare workers like Dr Ghassan Abu-Sittah, a Médecins Sans Frontières plastic surgeon based in London who has been treating people at hospitals in Gaza City, are key to recording those figures.

He says the hospital morgue records deaths after confirming the identity of the dead person with their relatives.
The number of deaths registered so far, he believes, is far fewer than those that have actually occurred. "Most of the deaths happen at home," he says. "The ones we could not identify, we did not record."

In an analysis of health ministry death figures from the Israel-Gaza conflict in 2014, in which Gaza was bombed, and a separate record of death figures from that same year collated by Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, Prof Spagat found overall consistency in the reported figures.'

There are very many articles that are easy to to find that say the same thing. That the numbers may not be exact - and nobody expects them to be, but they are most definitely in the ball park. But even if they are out by 50%, the fact that thousands of civilians, including many children, have been killed is, without any doubt whatsoever, a human tragedy. And yet you seem reluctant to acknowledge this.

I'm doing my best to stay out of this discussion because the politics of the matter are positively labyrinthian. But I appreciate that people support both the Palestinians and the Israelis right to live where they want in relative peace. And that terrorist organisations like Hamas prevent that happening. It sould bea benefit toall if Hamas was wiped from the map.

But...there is a price to pay to do that. It is price that is being paid right now. You seem to want to ignore it. You can't. You either say that IF these figures are correct then it's a price that's acceptable - and perhaps a greater number would also be acceptable. OR you consider them to be unacceptable.

My personal position is that we are well past the point where these deaths can be considered reasonable 'collaterall damage'. And that fact is damaging to the Israeli position. They are losing sympathy. They are losing support.

 

[JosephZ]

Yeah doesn't sound like a prison to me.

Once again, here is Merriam-Webster definition of the word prison:

A state of confinement or captivity.

1.9 million Palestinians in Gaza are ‘locked in’, unable to access the remainder of the occupied Palestinian territory and the outside world. Movement restrictions imposed by Israel since the early 1990s and intensified in June 2007, citing security concerns, have undermined living conditions in Gaza and fragmented the territorial unity and the economic and social fabric of the oPt. Those eligible for exit permits constitute a small minority, primarily patients, business people and staff of international organizations. The isolation of Gaza has been exacerbated by Egypt’s closure of the Rafah crossing.

1.9 million people are confined. Gaza is described by many Palestinians and humanitarian actors as the world’s largest open-air prison. 1.94 million Palestinians live behind a blockade and are refused access to the other occupied Palestinian areas and the rest of the world.

Living in Gaza in 2022 meant confinement in one of the most densely populated spaces in the world, without electricity half the time, and without adequate access to clean water or a proper sewage system.

 

[rjs330]

OK, keep us posted I guess.
I was thinking how God will raise all children in Gaza that had not reached the age of decision.
View attachment 339406

Not sure what God is going to do with children who had not reached the age of decision. That's up to him.

 

[rjs330]

Once again, here is Merriam-Webster definition of the word prison:

A state of confinement or captivity.

1.9 million Palestinians in Gaza are ‘locked in’, unable to access the remainder of the occupied Palestinian territory and the outside world. Movement restrictions imposed by Israel since the early 1990s and intensified in June 2007, citing security concerns, have undermined living conditions in Gaza and fragmented the territorial unity and the economic and social fabric of the oPt. Those eligible for exit permits constitute a small minority, primarily patients, business people and staff of international organizations. The isolation of Gaza has been exacerbated by Egypt’s closure of the Rafah crossing.

1.9 million people are confined. Gaza is described by many Palestinians and humanitarian actors as the world’s largest open-air prison. 1.94 million Palestinians live behind a blockade and are refused access to the other occupied Palestinian areas and the rest of the world.

Living in Gaza in 2022 meant confinement in one of the most densely populated spaces in the world, without electricity half the time, and without adequate access to clean water or a proper sewage system.

Give me a break. There are Palestinians all over the world. I don't care what a bunch of anti-Semetic so called humanitarian people think.

So Egypt has closed it borders too Gazans. You might ask yourself why. It's because they dont want any crazy dangerous radicals in their country either.

Israel has Palestinians in country as well.

Palestine has gotten plenty of help and funds from around the world. What did they do with the money? Build bombs and rockets, dig tunnels and launch terrorist attacks against Israel, so cry me a river.

If they took responsibility to create a real society I stead of a society filled with hatred towards Jews and and murderous intent, they might actually have something.

 

[rjs330]

The death toll is given by the Ministry of Health. I have previouly posted links showing that a number of organisations think they are, within reason (fog of war etc) to be trusted. Here's another: How the dead are counted in Gaza

'Healthcare workers like Dr Ghassan Abu-Sittah, a Médecins Sans Frontières plastic surgeon based in London who has been treating people at hospitals in Gaza City, are key to recording those figures.

He says the hospital morgue records deaths after confirming the identity of the dead person with their relatives.
The number of deaths registered so far, he believes, is far fewer than those that have actually occurred. "Most of the deaths happen at home," he says. "The ones we could not identify, we did not record."

In an analysis of health ministry death figures from the Israel-Gaza conflict in 2014, in which Gaza was bombed, and a separate record of death figures from that same year collated by Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, Prof Spagat found overall consistency in the reported figures.'

There are very many articles that are easy to to find that say the same thing. That the numbers may not be exact - and nobody expects them to be, but they are most definitely in the ball park. But even if they are out by 50%, the fact that thousands of civilians, including many children, have been killed is, without any doubt whatsoever, a human tragedy. And yet you seem reluctant to acknowledge this.

I'm doing my best to stay out of this discussion because the politics of the matter are positively labyrinthian. But I appreciate that people support both the Palestinians and the Israelis right to live where they want in relative peace. And that terrorist organisations like Hamas prevent that happening. It sould bea benefit toall if Hamas was wiped from the map.

But...there is a price to pay to do that. It is price that is being paid right now. You seem to want to ignore it. You can't. You either say that IF these figures are correct then it's a price that's acceptable - and perhaps a greater number would also be acceptable. OR you consider them to be unacceptable.

My personal position is that we are well past the point where these deaths can be considered reasonable 'collaterall damage'. And that fact is damaging to the Israeli position. They are losing sympathy. They are losing support.

If they are so accurate how many Hamas have been killed?

 

[truthpls]

The deaths are a good outcome in that framework.

Not sure what God is going to do with children who had not reached the age of decision. That's up to him.

I think I gave my opinion on that

 

[JosephZ]

Give me a break. There are Palestinians all over the world. I don't care what a bunch of anti-Semetic so called humanitarian people think.

A few Christian voices:

“Gaza is a prison, an open prison. Two million people packed inside there with a very difficult economic and social perspective for the future,” -- Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa

“There is a siege from the sky, from the land, from the sea. Most of the people cannot use the Israeli border. The Egyptian border is closed most of the time. Usually when people ask what it is like to live in Gaza I say I’ve never been in a prison, but I live in one.” -- Gazan Pastor

"Gazans live like it's an open air prison since we can't leave. We can't visit relatives, look for work, medicine or good hospitals on the outside," -- Fr. Mario da Silva

"The Christians in Gaza belong to the oldest Christian community in the world, going back to the first century. In the fourth century, Gaza was a major Christian mission hub until 1948... The dire situation in Gaza, the largest open air prison in the world where they see the water there are polluted with high unemployment and five wars within 15 years.... They demand an end to the occupation, a just and lasting peace, so that they can keep their hope alive, where it's all started." -- Rev. Dr. Mitri Raheb

"The population of Gaza’s 2.3 million people are now living in an open-air prison... the Israeli-imposed Gaza blockade is a denial of basic human rights and amounts to collective punishment. -- Ghassan Tarazi, Palestinian Baptist

 

[Bradskii]

If they are so accurate how many Hamas have been killed?

They don't differentiate. So you and I don't know. But as many agencies are saying that the death toll for children is around 4,000 then that might be a figure on which you can think on for a while. Is that number, assuming it's correct, acceptable? Of course it isn't.

 

[Abraxos]

*Ahem

https://special.now14.co.il/israel-wins/

It's probably more according to Israel's own site. And quite ironic that this Zionist regime paints all those eliminated as "terrorists". +12,320 and counting. Seems a tinge bit propagandist?

 

[rjs330]

I think I gave my opinion on that

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I don't automatically believe the numbers cited by the health ministry.
But here is what I do know: Dropping 2000 lb bombs in a densly populated area will kill a lot of people.
Common sense.

Common sense says that Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas started this in 2006. Israel's mistake was not to destroy Hamas then. The world's mistake was to fund Gaza without bothering to find out where the money was going. None of this was necessary. The people of Gaza voted a terrorist group into power. What did they expect? So-called Palestinians have been calling for the eradication of Israel since 1948. Not the best neighbours to have, I would have thought. Common sense says destroy your enemy. I don't know of any other country that is pillioried for defending itself.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Department of Defense provides insight into how Hamas uses hospitals as fortresses in Gaza: 'clear evidence'

Pentagon officials said on Tuesday that Hamas was using hospitals in Gaza to conceal and support military operations, while also holding people hostage.

www.google.com

I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but the Pentagon confirmed that yes, Hamas built command centers under hospitals, yes...they don't care about the safety and well-being of their own citizens (but complain about Israel not caring about their citizens). IDF soldiers (you know...people) have risked their lives raiding the hospital, killing terrorists, and uncovered a Hamas command center under that hospital I'm not going to bother spelling correctly.

They also recovered the body of another murdered Israeli hostage.

In summary...

1. The Israeli government (who has been taking a ridiculous amount of criticism) treats Palestinians better than their elected Hamas leaders do.

2. Hamas wanted their people to suffer as much as possible, to maximize sympathy on the international stage, and gain support for what they saw as a dying cause (the sooner its dead the better).

3. And this is just me personally, but it seems really unlikely that the Palestinians working at the hospital were oblivious to the terrorist organization in their basement. They are an excellent example of just what lengths the Palestinian people will go to in order to support Hamas.

4. I still have yet to come across any Palestinians in Gaza condemning the murder of innocent hostages, either right outside their hospital or inside it then moved...but boy, do they complain about the difficulties of running a hospital on top of a military base.

Body of second Israeli hostage found near main Gaza hospital - UPI.com

Two bodies of female hostages abducted by Hamas during its Oct. 7 attack on Israel have been found adjacent to Gaza's biggest hospital, Al-Sharif, Israel Defense Forces said.

www.google.com

When one considers what sort of people these Palestinians are, it's not hard to imagine why a 2 state solution is unpopular.

I predict the Palestinians will accept a worse situation than they had prior to this war within a few months just to end it. They'll need to see that their international buddies are really just there for moral support and not interested in joining the fight. Then, should they still have some territory in Gaza....after a decade of minor skirmishes....They'll resume launching rockets at Israeli civilians and Israel will continue to slowly push Palestine out of existence settlement after settlement.