Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Aussie Pete]

South Africa becomes latest country to recall ambassador to Israel​

[In addition to recalling their own ambassador,] Ntshavheni also criticized Israel’s ambassador to South Africa, Eli Belotserkovsky, accusing him of making “continuing disparaging remarks” about those who oppose the actions of Israeli authorities in Gaza.

Bahrain, Chad, Chile, Colombia, Honduras, Jordan and Turkey also said they recalled their ambassadors to Israel in recent weeks. Bolivia went a step further and announced it would sever its diplomatic relations with Israel.

South Africa should fix its own problems before criticising others. The first 3 months of 2023 there were 70 murders a day.

 

[Aussie Pete]

As I wrote in a prior thread:

"To destroy Hamas, Isreal is aiming to destroy the underground tunnel network that covers the entirety of Gaza. Given how extensive the network is and Hamas' propensity to locate their high value military targets near mosque, hospitals etc, Israel is faced with the challenge of how to destroy the tunnels while minimizing human life. It also appears Israel has no inention of sending it's troops into the tunnels given the high risk factor. In the case of the Jabaliya neighborhood, at least two 2,000-pound bombs were used in a densely populated area. The human toll from such a decion would be obvious to the Israeli government.

Israel state's it was targetting a high level Hamas commander as well as tunnel infrastrcure.

Is killing so many civilians justfified? I'm not convinced it is.

Once more, given the situation, we'll see many more Jabaliya like bombings in the days and weeks ahead. Thousands of civilians will die as a result."

The law of armed conflict says the incidental killing of and harm to civilians and damage to objects must not exceed the direct military advantage to be gained. The Geneva Conventions, the widely accepted basis for international humanitarian law and codes of warfare, were adopted in 1949 with the aim of preventing governments from inflicting the level of mass casualties of World War II.

You believe the numbers quoted by an organisation that said that it killed no civlians in Israel? No doubt civilians are dying. However, Hamas is utterly untrustworthy. Every casualty in this conflict is entirely the responsibility of Hamas.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Every casualty in this conflict is entirely the responsibility of Hamas.

Every single one on both sides of this conflict.... True, true, true.

 

[Vanellus]

CNN claims that this video was not filtered or censored by the IDF.

Well one wonders what CNN did to receive such special treatment. The journalist is with the IDF at all times so apparently could not move at will. No doubt the IDF will say it is for his safety but what do the people of Gaza do for their safety under such bombardment? Yes he could choose the questions to ask but that is the case for other journalists. He is clearly there to give credence to the IDF claims. I noted they omitted the Hamas guards list where the names of the guards just happened to be the days of the week.

 

[trophy33]

Sure - if you're a Marxist. But I'm not a Marxist, I'm a Christian and in the Christianity the Bible teaches what Christians should be on the side of is Justice. Period. Not "civilian's", not "against invading countries" not one man's view of what "oppression" even is, but Justice.. in God's view.

This part does not make any sense, IMO.

Actually because we have been a nation that believes in justice

What nation have we been?

As a besides I want to inform you upfront I have been Christian since 2014, prior to that I was Muslim. This game I have skin in, so to speak. I also know what I'm talking about when I do.

I think this part also does not make much sense.

 

[Vanellus]

The "shelling" occured 1 week ago (wounding a couple of men). It appears to be single object that fell and was not followed by other rounds...suggesting that it was likely a mistake.

When Israel moved troops into the hospital complex over the last 48 hours they reportedly engaged fighters at the entrance. Otherwise, there was no attack on the hospital itself or inside the buildings.
Israel had intel. They acted on it as any army would.

There are reports of far more strikes against the hospital:

On 3 November, an Israeli airstrike targeted an ambulance convoy leaving the hospital. The attack killed 15 and wounded 60. Israel claimed that Hamas was using the ambulances.[16] Neither the Washington Post nor the Human Rights Watch found anything to evidence the Israeli claims.[23][24] The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) stated that Israel had targeted Al-Shifa ambulances 7 times prior and had killed 4 of their personnel.[25] On 6 November, Israeli forces struck and destroyed the solar panels atop the hospital, leaving it fully reliant on back-up generators powered by rapidly dwindling fuel supplies.[26]

On 10 November, at least four strikes hit various areas of the hospital with various projectiles.[27][12] Israel claimed that at least one projectile was a misfired militant rocket, but did not elaborate further.[28] The Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) claimed that there were at least 5 strikes damaging parts of the hospital complex,- two, at 2 and 8 am., hitting the maternity ward located on the upper floors,-[failed verification][27] stating that 14 people had been killed.[29] Later a Palestinian doctor stated that 7 people had died following the strikes.[27] On the same day, it was reported that Israeli forces were at the gates of the hospital.[22]According to a follow-up investigation commissioned by the New York Times from experts who examined videos and remnants of the munitions, three of the projectiles fired at the hospital were Israeli.[27]

Al-Shifa Hospital siege - Wikipedia
Note the claims above have linked references.

But given that the IDF had the hospital surrounded where are all the Hamas that would have been in the alleged huge Hamas central command complex. Were they there when the hospital was being attacked?

I've also seen a report that the IDF took out the al Shifa oxygen concentrator plant which is for incubators and critically ill patients not Hamas.

Al-Shifa hospital ran out of clean water after storage tanks on the roof of the facility were struck in the bombardments, which also hit oxygen supplies in the complex,

Under bombardment, Gaza medics fight to save patients with no power, water or food

 

[Vanellus]

Sure - if you're a Marxist.

But I'm not a Marxist, I'm a Christian and in the Christianity the Bible teaches what Christians should be on the side of is Justice. Period. Not "civilian's", not "against invading countries" not one man's view of what "oppression" even is, but Justice.. in God's view.




Actually because we have been a nation that believes in justice and as a society generally feel we should help those in need of helping if we have ability (a concept out of what was once a more collective faith and world view, one based in Christian faith) we rather do have to pick a side if we want to voice an opinion - either at the polls in voting for the best candidate or in letter format to our elected representatives - about what our tax dollars are being spent on...

An important thing to have an opinion and voice on, all things considered.

As a besides I want to inform you upfront I have been Christian since 2014, prior to that I was Muslim. This game I have skin in, so to speak. I also know what I'm talking about when I do.

This is very very off topic.

 

[Vanellus]

There were tunnels and weapons caches at Al shifa

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-it-has-clear-information-linking-shifa-hospital-to-hamas-held-hostages/

Doesn't look like the alleged huge Hamas central command complex.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This is very very off topic.

I will respect that and not respond further in your thread.

 

[Desk trauma]

So, like Israel you don't believe. OK

Yep.

Is this ripe with meaning in your own head?

. I’m sure you’re really right unlike those faithless twenty centuries worth of Christian’s who came before you.

 

[mindlight]

Doesn't look like the alleged huge Hamas central command complex.

It is hard to say right now. There was a Hamas presence in the hospital but perhaps it can be separated from whatever is underneath it and who hides there. No one denies that Hamas is using tunnels and even Al Jazeerah suspects tunnels under this hospital:

 

[lanceleo]

An example of IDF killing a teenage boy with special needs for throwing stones that would never hit them and then the IDF shoot at UK channel 4 reporters. Note this is the West Bank not Gaza.
Minute by Minute: Israeli killing in West Bank visual investigation

What do you expect the IDF to do? The stones could be grenades and IDF do not have the luxury of time to analyze the mental capacity of the boy. They acted rightly in that situation.

 

[wing2000]

nm

 

[wing2000]

Either we believe the bible or not. If one is familiar with prophesies of that time, it would be clear that the focus of that tribulation is Israel. Some people may have wondered why God would allow Israel, Even though in unbelief, to go through that horrible time. Who would wonder now?

Is that what you believe? That God is punishing the modern day secular state of Israel?

Edit, actually, I'll retract this question as it's off topic.

 

[wing2000]

You believe the numbers quoted by an organisation that said that it killed no civlians in Israel? No doubt civilians are dying. However, Hamas is utterly untrustworthy. Every casualty in this conflict is entirely the responsibility of Hamas.

I don't automatically believe the numbers cited by the health ministry.
But here is what I do know: Dropping 2000 lb bombs in a densly populated area will kill a lot of people.
Common sense.

 

[wing2000]

The bodies of two hostages abducted by Hamas on Oct. 7 were found in buildings near Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital, the Israeli military said.
Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, a spokesman for Israel’s military, said Friday that the body of 19-year-old soldier Cpl. Noa Marciano was discovered at a structure near the hospital. Her family was notified after medical officials and military rabbis identified her body, he added.
Marciano’s funeral took place on Friday.
On Thursday, Hagari wrote on social media that the family of another hostage, named by the IDF as Yehudit Weiss, was informed after her body was found in a building, also near al-Shifa, which he said contained weaponry.
Weiss had been taken hostage from the Beeri kibbutz on Oct. 7 during Hamas’s attacks on Israel, according to Hagari. Israeli media reported that her husband was found murdered in the safe room of her building after the attack and that Weiss had been battling cancer at the time of her abduction.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/17/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-palestine/#link-WITP4U5JYFDWDALRTGVIMLKMVY

 

[wing2000]

It may take some time (days, weeks?) to know the extent of Hamas operations under the hospital complex.

Almost 48 hours after entering Gaza’s largest medical complex, the Israeli military escorted New York Times journalists through a landscape of wartime destruction Thursday night to a stone-and-concrete shaft on its grounds with a staircase descending into the earth — evidence, it said, of a Hamas military facility under the hospital.

But Col. Elad Tsury, commander of Israel’s Seventh Brigade, said Israeli forces, fearing booby traps, had not ventured down the shaft at the hospital, Al-Shifa. He said it had been discovered earlier in the day under a pile of sand on the northern perimeter of the complex.

In the darkness, it was unclear where the shaft led or how deep it went, although the military said it had sent a drone down at least several meters. Electrical wiring was visible inside, along with a metal staircase.

The Israeli Army escorts Times journalists to Al-Shifa, a focus of its invasion. (Published 2023)

\]’[=plo0-9The Israeli Army escorts Times journalists to Al-Shifa, a focus of its invasion.

www.nytimes.com

 

[wing2000]

Israel cannot continue to deny food, water and health services to the people of Gaza. It's reaching a point where thousands could die of disease from unsanitary conditions and starvation.

A U.N. human rights official said Israel must allow water and fuel into Gaza to restart the water supply network otherwise people would die of thirst and disease. Israel's actions were a breach of international law, Pedro Arrojo-Agudo said.

UN says starvation imminent in Gaza, no let-up in Israeli assault

U.N. aid deliveries to Gaza were suspended again on Friday due to shortages of fuel and a communications shutdown, deepening the misery of thousands of hungry and homeless Palestinians as Israeli troops battled Hamas militants in the enclave.

www.reuters.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

Thousands of bodies lie buried in Gaza’s rubble. Families dig to retrieve them, often by hand​

The U.N. humanitarian affairs office estimates that about 2,700 people, including 1,500 children, are missing and believed buried in the ruins.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Hamas agrees to tentative deal to free dozens of hostages, pending Israel’s approval​

Hamas wants a multiday pause in fighting, increased humanitarian aid, and freedom for an unknown number of Palestinians in Israeli jails in exchange for the release of at least 50 women and children being held in Gaza​